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500, 472, 425, 368 Discussion, 472, how to boost fuel economy? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Well, this thread has gone all over the place. Whenever I contemplate spending large amounts of money in the name ...
  1. #31
    cadillac_al is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Well, this thread has gone all over the place. Whenever I contemplate spending large amounts of money in the name of efficiency I like to figure out how long it will take for the mods to pay off. If you spend a lot of time and money you may get 18 mpg out of the car. If it gets10-12 mpg now it will still take a lot of miles before your fuel savings will pay for the mods. The gear vendors unit is a proven reliable unit but it isn't cheap either. 4L80's aren't that cheap to retrofit either. I think most people just pay the penalty at the pump and enjoy it as is. I have lived over 50 years without needing Seafoam so I don't get it's popularity. Synthetic oil will keep any engine clean by itself. I would give any old 472 an HEI with a good tune up and call it good.

  2. #32
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    #8. Here's a little on what I found on Valvoline VR1 and NOT to use it in a street car since it does not have the detergent packaged needed for a street car. When you read these forums, they often refer to conventional (non-synthetic oil) as "Dino" which means Dinosaur, which means its oil from the ground of the left over extinct Dinosaurs.....something like that!
    Ok.

    Amsoil products are pretty difficult to get in Finland. No one drives every day with these cars nowadays and that's why we don't have very much those products.

    It's difficult to find synthetic oil with high ZDDP too. I have searched some information, and Valvoline Turbo which I have used in all engines, has 1300ppm of zinc, but that oil is mineral.

    I've heard Red Line uses ester technology in their oils? Does Red Line have any high ZDDP oils?

    They would be synthetic and nice, especially in winter.




    I'll read the rest of your message later and answer then

  3. #33
    cadillac_al is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    There must be some kind of diesel truck oil with the extra zddp available over there that should work fine.

  4. #34
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac_al View Post
    There must be some kind of diesel truck oil with the extra zddp available over there that should work fine.
    Actually, I've been doing major researching on this topic just to post for this thread, and of course, saved about 20 Links of Threads to post back here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, but its true and I really don't want to post that much stuff, but the only way to learn is read, Read, READ! And I'm still learning!

    Anyway, I came across some info from some intelligent sources regarding your thoughts exactly that others have also concluded, and the experts say, NOT to use diesel oil in a gas motor even though many diesel oils do have high ZDDP levels. Apparently, from what was said, Diesel Oils additive package needs high heat to activate the additive package, and those oils also have different additives and low Ash content ect. which will only benefit diesel motors......and a bunch of other technical reasons that I can't remember!
    It was also said, the ZDDP acts differently in diesel oil and does not work until it is exposed to the high heat of a diesel motor.

    Also, many have discussed the same Valvoline VR1 oil that "3dfx" is currently using which has been reforumulated with an addivtive package for street cars. Looks like VR1 oil is a good choice. I would maybe go synthetic and add a ZDDP additive like ZDDP Plus or even Redlines ZDDP additive to an acceptable calculated concentration whatever that may be......
    http://www.zddplus.com/

    ZDDP Plus Tech Paper:
    http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief2%20...Oil%20Myth.pdf

    http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121

    I'm sure there are many company's in Europe who sell a ZDDP additive also known as "Break In Additive".

    Here's Mobil 1's answer on the topic:
    http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...ssic_Cars.aspx


    Finally, here's some excellent info on "Everything you want to know about ZDDP" from a GM Tech Bulletin with some very good conclusions that were made about the GM Tech Bulletin!

    It was info from 2007, so I wonder if this info has changed any as oil technology has also changed over the past 5yrs. I'll ask for an update to see what they say................
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1049812

    I still feel that this 472 and any neglected motor should have some supplemental cleaning performed. I've been reading some very good info on the KREEN Oil Flush and it looks like that's what I'm ordering soon because of its very different and unique formulation vs. Marvel Mystery Oil, Sea Foam, and Auto RX. I wish I knew about it back in the early 90's when we had some bad bulk oil from a local supplier totally gunk up my Fleet of delivery trucks and my 91 Brougham that I foolishly used that oil in a few times before find out what was happening!



    I'm going to order some KREEN and give it a try on some of my cars. I sent them an e-mail to see if it's distributed to Europe or if they know of a product over there with the exact formulation. I'll post some interesting and promising stuff I found about it. Their web-site is pretty basic for such an old product line that mainly is known in the Fire Arms and Aerospace Industry.


    I'm still gathering tons of stuff to post to the thread in addition to that Camshaft upgrade for the 472 which was developed by some BIG BLOCK CADDY GURU'S and has been proven to improve economy of the 472/500 motor. Bare with me.

    Regards,
    Chris

  5. #35
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Problem with most of these chemical oil strippers is just that, they strip the oil of it's lubricating properties. That is why you can only run them for short periods of time. Also they help contaminates to run throught the oiling system. If you have ever torn down an engine, you should be aware of the pockets of fine metal deposits that these cleaners allow to get back into suspension and they are fine enough to pass through most pick-up screens. At this point it relies on how efficient you oil filter is. WIX makes one of the best. Some of the others will allow minute particles through them. There is no known rating of oil filters. They all allow some contaminates through, and all systems have a bypass valve that allows oil passage when trapped particles offer too much resistance.

  6. #36
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I have read about camshaft thing, and maybe in autumn I dissassemble the engine and change all bearings, pistonrings, etc. and buy a new cam. In autumn I can get my car into warm garage.

    I have read about those camshafts, here is one site which provides them: http://www.500cid.com/cams.htm

    They say I can get 22MPG fuel consumption, that sounds pretty amazing, huh?

    Has anyone here replaced your own cam with MTS#3 series mileage cam?

    What else I must change? Do I have to change lifters, pushrods, or anything?

    They say this cam works best in low-compression engines, how doest it work in my engine, which is high compression? Do I get better results than ones with low compression engine?

  7. #37
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    Exclamation Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Hi "3dfx",

    Very very sorry 3dfx I didn't get back to you. Been sick for a while, but almost on a daily basis, I've compiled literally a library and database of links for you to review about the 472/500 modifications surrounding fuel economy..... About a whole winter's worth of reading!!!!!


    Ton's of info on the 472 and how to achieve the fuel economy gains. I'm glad you posted a message and are still interested in this subject, so my research can at least be of interest to you or others. Since you already found the MTS site, you probably have been also doing research and may have already seen the many links I've already compiled, or maybe not!


    I've also become very interested in the 472/500 and may put one in my 91' Brougham if my little 305 TBI dies some day. I also found a guy who put one into a beautiful red concourse 1980 Fleetwood Brougham that gets 12mpg (city?/Hwy?) and does the 1/4 mile in 12.92 at 106mph and is an every day street car! This motor was built by the old famous owner of MTS "Al Betker" who built the motor to be 500 hp / 600 tq. for Matt Garrett who is a major car collector here the U.S. and has a huge website of all his cars:
    http://www.mcsmk8.com/80CAD-500/MAVICA.HTM

    Here's his main web-page with all of his collection. His Cadillac Collection is really unbelievable:
    http://www.mcsmk8.com/cadillacs/mycads.htm

    I've also e-mailed Matt Garrett about his 1980 Fleetwood and how to get in touch with Al Betker. I may call him tomorrow also.

    I've been thinking a lot about your engine and have been researching and talking to experts on some diagnostics and very specific and unique procedures/treatments to do on your engine to basically save its life from an unnecessary rebuild and to try and revive it so you can hopefully take this project on without a lot of expense or doing a rebuild.

    I have been in contact with Marty at MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties www.500cid.com ) a few times about your 69' Deville who is now one of the new owners of the company. Today he sent me the "TOP SECRET CAM SPECS" in order to be able to start to get advice on matching axle gears, transmission, torque converter, and spark advance to get this engine to run properly on that cam or even with your stock cam. Basically, MTS only builds engines but will try and help give advice beyond engine building. Many forums have said MTS is the best and most well known company to deal with on the 425/472/500 performance parts ect.

    After doing a lot of research on that cam and other economy improving tricks for the 472/500, I've been trying to get the history straight about their [U]MTS#3 "22 mpg. Economy Camshaft"
    http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/t.../17/Categories

    The company "MTS" has gone through 3 owners and Marty (new owner) had said he does not have the detailed info about that famous "76' Sedan DeVille 472 that got 22 mpgs." because he said the client database and other info was all lost after a computer crash after they bought the company from Al Betker. I "THINK" that camshaft along with all the MTS cams were developed by the 2nd owner Al Betker who developed and did a lot of research and design on those cam, but sold his business (MTS) to Marty around 2007 who merged and also bought out Torque Inc. another Cadillac Perf. company along with Bull Dog Cadillac Performance Heads.

    I'm presently trying to track down "Al Betker" through some of my auto industry contacts and will let you know if I can find him and get him to join in here to discuss his expertise on these motors........

    As far as the info I've compiled, ITS HUGE! I've tried my best to organized it with a description of each link. I think I may do a write-up about what I believe you should try to do with the motor first in diagnostics and some procedures, then post all of those links to better understand my rational of how I would proceed with your car if it were mine.

    Not real sure how I'm going to do this.......I have to think a little more but since no one else has posted any ideas in a few weeks, I guess the next few HUGE posts won't bury anyone's posts on the subject.

    Regards,
    Chris
    CADforce69 and CADforce69 like this.

  8. #38
    deVille33 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Has anyone here replaced your own cam with MTS#3 series mileage cam?

    What else I must change? Do I have to change lifters, pushrods, or anything?

    They say this cam works best in low-compression engines, how doest it work in my engine, which is high compression? Do I get better results than ones with low compression engine?[/QUOTE]

    Any time you install a new cam it is best to install new lifters. The lifter faces and the cam lobes have to "wear-in". Cam manufactures generally sell these in kits with some moly-disulfide and oil additive, to aid with the break-in. If you plan to use a previously used cam, it is advisable to install lifters in the same location in relation to the lobe due to the resulting matched surfaces.
    Push rods, rockers, rocker shafts, valve stem tips, locks, and spring retainers, should all be examined with scrutiny. My rule, New cam = new valve springs, or at least check the static spring pressure and replace as needed. Sometimes you can get away with replacing just the exhaust valve springs, as they are exposed to more heat than the intakes.
    Cams designed as "mileage" cams are basically low lift/short duration cams which do not promote proper dynamics for most high compressioned engines. The stock cam for a 472 is already of this design. Compression in these engines is the result of the large diameter/stroke of the pistons, similar in design as a lot of diesel engines. These engines reach peak efficiency around 2000 rpm. Use of one of these cams, may neccessitate rejetting your carb to improve off idle performance.

  9. #39
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    It's always fun to get into an engine and work toward better economy/more power.

    But, keep careful accounts of money and time spent, bounce that against any claimed gas mileage increase and your present mileage; then figure how many gallons of gas you need to burn to begin to break even.

    I build a LOT of Olds 455 and GM 454 engines for marine use. Different cams, rocker arms, timing - all have very little effect (in the order of things) on fuel consumption. Advancing a cam 4 degrees brings the power curve down a bit in the rpm range and MIGHT net you a small fuel economy gain at cruise, but that's doubtful.

    Perhaps a good Quadrajet overhaul and some careful primary jet work would be the way to go. Find Doug Roe's HP Books 8 X 11 paperback on how to repair and tune Quadrajets. Google.

  10. #40
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    But, keep careful accounts of money and time spent, bounce that against any claimed gas mileage increase and your present mileage; then figure how many gallons of gas you need to burn to begin to break even.
    Yeah, I really have to keep this in mind. Thats why I have to find out does someone REALLY got mileages as low as 22MPG. We in Finland have lots of 80's and 90's Turbo Volvos and Saab 900 Turbos and they get mileages like that. Saab 900, and Volvos are smaller cars with smaller, 2 liter engines. It sound very unbelieveable that bigger car with 60's huge carburator engine could do the same mileages than those Saabs and Volvos with fuel injection (crappy bosch K-jettronic...I don't know is it much better than carburator...) and turbos.

    I'm only changing the cam if I decide to do some serious engine repairs and replace all piston rings, bearings and all worn parts with new ones, hone cylinders, "hone" (I don't know is this the right word?) valves, machine my cylinder head with MIRA.

    I have to do this decision about engine repairs after I have done pass-leak test and pressure test to my engine. I'll do them as soon as I can. Maybe in spring when weather warms up.

    I have been in contact with Marty at MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties www.500cid.com ) a few times about your 69' Deville who is now one of the new owners of the company.
    I sent E-mail to them yesterday and asked about prices, cam options, and can they ship their products to Finland.

  11. #41
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    Exclamation Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    From all the links I saved on the 472/500's: the factory cam had a very bizarre and strange profile since it was the beginning of emissions control in the U.S. The peak intake lift was said to be 17 degrees After Top Dead Center!!!!!! Very bad for power or efficiency of combustion and I can't imagine how it gave lower emissions. There was so many other strange issues with those factory cams on slow ramp speed ect. ect. and have been said to be very bad cam designs from the factory, and ANY performance cam will really bring that engine alive from what others have experienced and studying the factory cam profile. They also have said these cams and even aftermarket regrinds need to be degreed in because most of them are off by 4 degrees +++.

    "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?"
    http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/foru...c=5836.25;wap2

    Full Forum: "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?"
    http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/foru...p?topic=5836.0


    From what I've read a few times now, the 425/472/500 engine blocks were casted with high nickle alloy content which made them very hard and durable and was great protection from cylinder wall wear. So that's in your favor if the engine was not well maintained. I've read that many people were surprised to see the original cross hatch still on the cylinder walls after 200,000 miles and didnt' need to touch the cylinder walls.


    The original springs were not made well from Cadillac, and it has been said, you can actually compress the springs by hand because they were so weak!

    Also, you definitely want to purchase the MTS#3 or #5 Kit with the lifters along with the valve spring kit:
    http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/t...-Spring/Detail

    MTS#3 Cam Kit: http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/t...dsh-500/Detail

    MTS#5 Cam Kit: http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/t...dsh-500/Detail


    I may as well let you in on a major flaw of this motor right now, that I discovered.

    First, the valve spring seals/retainers on the 425/472/500 motors were made of Nylon (plastic), as were the teeth on the timing gears had Nylon! The Nylon gets very brittle and breaks off from both area's and ends up on the oil pump pickup screen! When the Nylon coating breaks off the timing gears, it accelerates the timing chain wear and totally screws up valve timing along with ignition timing which will make matters worse for efficiency of the combustion event! If it gets bad enough, the chain jumps a tooth +, you will have valve piston contact! That's what I was told and couldn't believe it........

    I believe that is why you are having a MAJOR oil problem as I have confirmed that 1 liter/600km is far too much oil being burned for that motor and any of these Big Cadillac Motors using more than 1qt/3000 has these problems which need to be explored and ruled out.

    In addition, you will need to buy a new Timing Set by Cloyes:
    http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/t...-roller/Detail Street Set

    http://www.mtscadparts.net/servlet/t...-timing/Detail HP Full Roller Set

    I know one of technical guys at Cloyes I can talk to about this in the next few days and which "Timing Set" to go with. He coincidentally sent me an e-mail the other day about something else so I'll be sure to ask him what he knows about the 472/500 because he is an absolute authority on GM.


    The 2nd reason that I've been doing a lot of research about your oil consumption problem, is that I firmly believe all that oil in the combustion chambers has most certainly carboned up ring-packs/ ring-lands and are not allowing the rings to move freely and seal, along with bad maintenance of previous owners and long oil change intervals with cheep oil over the years......so your oil consumption problem over the years may have caused the rings to seize up fromoil entering from the top through the valve seals, and from the bottom through a stuck oil ring..........more on how to resolve that later by a hot chemical soak and pressurizing the cylinder to dissolve the carbon with out taking the motor apart!

    One of the first things to do after a chemical soak, is to take that oil pan off and inspect/clean it out from all the Nylon material!

    SEE POST #4 and enlarge the photo of all the Nylon timing gears and valve springs seals!
    http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/425-...ac-198642.html

    After I post up all my research along with any other advice from other members here, you are going to want to join the Forums that specialize in the 472/500 motors like the 500CID Forum and there are a few others. Just post the links on this thread so others can get linked to those other forums threads on building an efficient 472/500 because I'm sure some very good advice will be given!



    Essentially, from the info I will post, in order to get the best fuel economy from that MTS#3, it will need to be carefully matched to the proper gears, trans, torque converter, and spark curve of a new HEI and you may as well go with a MSD/Crane/Mallory CID spark box which will give you multiple sparks to improve the combustion efficiency of those HUGE combustion chambers!

    There is another spark box technology that is mostly unknown, but was developed by a very well known German Electronics Engineer by the name of Ulf Arens and some in the OEM/Aftermarket Spark Box Industry consult with him for product development while other shun his expertise and knowledge. Here's his technology he licensed to this company which is big with the Asian Tuners: http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_booster.htm

    This system was also tested by David Vizard who is the famous automotive technical journalist who writes all the "GOOD" articles for the car magazines like Hot Rod ect...and has written a few performance books. He did a write up on a very good race industry forum that no longer exists but here is the old archived website. Unfortunately, the photos of the Ignition Scope Pattern are not shown on this site which was proof of how it worked:
    http://web.archive.org/web/200804130...cal-power.html

    Here is an excerpt on the same article about the Plasma Booster from David Vizards book: "HOW TO BUILD HORSEPOWER". Pg. 90 is not shown but here is pg. 91:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=OAw...PLASMA&f=false


    Industry News on Ulf Arens's invention:
    http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/spark-of-anger

    But David Vizard is now testing the Blue Phoenix Plasma Ignition so I'll have to read about it more but these guys are discussing it:
    http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...28187&start=45


    This is why you need at least an HEI Distributor/Ignition to light off that high compression and huge cylinders which are as big as an old oil can! Like this one: http://www.retroplanet.com/PROD/13370
    Even David Vizard states the same on large big block cylinder capacities in that book.



    If you think this post was long..............the info I will post is about 10 of these pages!!!!!! But I believe is well worth the read.

    More to come soon!

    Regards,
    Chris

  12. #42
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I've read that many people were surprised to see the original cross hatch still on the cylinder walls after 200,000 miles and didnt' need to touch the cylinder walls.
    One Cadillac mechanic here said this same thing when I started to talk about honing the cylinder walls. Well, that's good for me.

    First, the valve spring seals/retainers on the 425/472/500 motors were made of Nylon (plastic), as were the teeth on the timing gears had Nylon!
    I'm familiar with this problem, my Saab 96 (with 1,5 liter Ford V4) has nylon timing gears and valve spring seals. I haven't got any problems with that yet but my friend has lots of problems with them and he replaced the original nylon gears with ones made from steel. Luckily, bad timing doesn't to any heavy damage in Ford V4.

    Well, replacing the nylon gears is the first thing I'll have to do when I dismantle my engine. Those nylon things just suck and can cause lots of problems.

    There is another spark box technology that is mostly unknown, but was developed by a very well known German Electronics Engineer by the name of Ulf Arens and some in the OEM/Aftermarket Spark Box Industry consult with him for product development while other shun his expertise and knowledge. Here's his technology he licensed to this company which is big with the Asian Tuners: http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_booster.htm
    One Finnish car magazine had article about that plasma ignition. There were pictures about it and spark seemed lot brighter than test cars original spark. Test car was pretty new VAG group car, Audi perhaps. The difference between those two sparks was huge, I can't imagine how huge the difference will be between break-point ignition and plasma ignition.

    The only question is, how reliable this plasma ignition system is. It's mainly used in high-end racing cars for a short perioids of time and there isn't very much street experience about it. How does the system work after 100 000km or 200 000km of street driving? Or how this plasma ignition device work in -20 degrees celsius?

    Essentially, from the info I will post, in order to get the best fuel economy from that MTS#3, it will need to be carefully matched to the proper gears, trans, torque converter, and spark curve of a new HEI and you may as well go with a MSD/Crane/Mallory CID spark box which will give you multiple sparks to improve the combustion efficiency of those HUGE combustion chambers!
    This could be pretty expensive if I have to take my car to some gearbox workshop for adjustment and go to some other workshop to adjust my ignition or sparkbox.

    The MTS#5 cam is more like the stock cam but how much it will affect to fuel economy? Is it possible to get anything like 18-20 MPG with this cam?

    This is why you need at least an HEI Distributor/Ignition to light off that high compression and huge cylinders which are as big as an old oil can!
    HEI distributor could be good. Is it any difference if I buy used old Delco-Remy distributor from some old 70's 472 based Cadillac or new high quality distributor? Of course, if I buy old distributor, I will overhaul it.

    If you think this post was long..............the info I will post is about 10 of these pages!!!!!! But I believe is well worth the read.
    I'll read it, this is very interesting topic. I'ts good to study these engines and make them more affordable to drive with todays gas prices.

  13. #43
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    Exclamation Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Hi 3DFX,

    What Plasma system did they review in that magazine article?

    Over the past few years, there have been quite a few ignitions that have developed a "Plasma" type ignition, but only a few few who truly developed the better technology. The system built by Ulf Arens and now sold through Okada Projects, or maybe by his old company in Europe, are for street cars and built to last for every day use. I've read that they are a simple 2 or 3 wire connection to the distributor/coil and if the box should fail, it resorts back to the OEM ignition where the MSD/Crane CDI box's will totally shut down the igntion if it should fail. I believe its because those system replace the distributor module where this Plasma box by OKADA does not.

    I've been reading a lot about that other system called Blue Phoenix Plasma Ignition and that system needs to be used with non-resistor plug which will interfere with modern day electronics or radios from a lot of EMI (Electro Magnetic Interference) that is generated with a non-resistor plug and amplified by this spark box, but some users have talked about installing shielding devices like the old style metal end capped euro spark plug boots that are then run to a ground wire. They've also said plugs don't last long on that system due to erosion of the plug tips because the system is so powerful. Although, Non-resistor plugs on a MSD Box or other boxes will also show a huge spark discharge but then again, that is at normal atmosperic pressure and not under vacuum or within a combustion chamber under extreme pressures. But makes a good marketing show!

    They were also talking about custom made "Duel Tungsten" plugs which are hand made to run on this system.......very interesting.

    The Plasma technology is very real and one system I read about was developed by reserchers at M.I.T. (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) around 1999 and they formed a private company called SmartFire Plasma Ignition. The company has since been bought and sold by some industry giants like Motorola and Woodwards. It was developed for F1 Race engines and it used the spark plug also as a harmonic device listening for pre-igntion/detonation/misfires and would adjust the spark event accordingly!

    This system was about $22,000 U.S.!!!!!!!!!!

    But I think the BIG OIL COMPANY's suppressed the technology through influence of Motorola and Woodwards who now own the SmartFire System!


    http://atlasf1.autosport.com/99/oct06/burckmyer.html

    http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analys...rking-interest

    There was even a brief merger of the company that makes my injector carbon cleaning machine "TerraClean" before they were sold off:
    http://guideauto.com/terralogix-and-...nolo/actualite

    Here's the latest on Plasma Ignition Technology from Federal-Mogul:
    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...gnition-system

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...129714558.html

    I BET THESE IGNITION TECHNOLOGIES WOULD GET THE OLD CADDY UP TO 50 MPG'S!!!!!!

    But, I think this technology has ALSO been somewhat exploited by the lower end devices that are available bragging about "Plasma". The only 2 devices I'd trust is the ones tested by David Vizard. I'm sure there maybe other company's too and some in Europe, but I'll have to talk with Ulf Arens someday soon to and ask him about these technologies or any others in Europe that are reputable..............maybe he was the first to duplicate the plasma technology or they stole it from him!


    Anyway, here's a little bit more info on the cam that I wanted to pass along to you and the e-mail from Marty at MTS and who was nice enough to actually give me the secret cam specs. Not sure if he also sent you this info too. But here it is for everyone to read..... In addition, here is some old info from the old MTS owners website further below:

    E-mail from MTS on exact cam specs:


    "#3 cam specs using stock rockers
    -This is a single pattern cam so both intake and exhaust lobes are the same
    Valve lift .472"
    -Advertised duration at .006" lift is 267*
    -duration at .050" lift is 210*
    -LSA is 112* and the cam is ground straight up. With early higher compression engines this is the way we recommend it be installed so the engine doesn't want to ping as easily.

    With the later low compression engines the cam can be advanced 4*

    -#5 cam specs with stock rockers
    -Valve lift .486"
    -Advertised duration at .006" lift is 279*
    -duration at .050" is 214*
    -LSA is 112 + 4"



    WEB ARCHIVED PAGES FROM OLD MTS WEBSITE: I'll post the websites in that HUGE research I've been doing to post here maybe this weekend.

    #3 Series Grind
    RPM Range: Idle - 4200
    This Cam is all Bottom end and Toque. Its excellent for heavy tow use. It will get a very heavy package moving from dead stop easily. It makes a great replacement for the stock cams in stock Fleetwood and Eldorados. This cam provides a stock idle with good vacuum. Its perfect for use with 2 to low 3 series rear gears. it works with stock valve springs and provides good fuel economy.

    #5 Series Grind
    RPM Range: 1000 - 4600
    Use of this Cam Requires a performance vale spring kit. This cam moves the power band up a notch. Still a good M.P.G. economy with a stock type idle. For use with 2 to 3 series rear gearing. Excellent towing power. This cam will move the Cadillac power curve to match your vehicles low to 3 series rear end gearing. A good choice for your daily driven street car or street rod. Excellent M.P.G. that improves with edelbrock intake and headers. Perfect choice for low compression 427 or 500 cads.


    I'm also in contact with a well known custom torque converter company called YANK converters. They are a company who highly engineers torque converters beyond the other well known companies. There are only a few of these custom converter company's that seem to share the same engineering technologies, but they are not cheep due to how well they built. I'll ask this guy what he recommends to see if they have a history on what works for custom converters for the Cadillac's for fuel efficiency to be matched to the MTS#3 Cam Profile and other recommendations of gearing/trans.

    More to come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Regards,
    Chris
    CADforce69 and CADforce69 like this.

  14. #44
    cadchris's Avatar
    cadchris is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): Cadillac 91 Bro-Ham, 91 Yello-dorado
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    Exclamation Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Hi again 3Dfx,

    Did you read this link to the forum "This ol' 429.......Boat anchor or awesome powerhouse?" that I posted previously?

    It talks about the 472/500 & 429/360 and detail info on the factory cam specs..... That forum has 4 pgs and easy to miss the pg. display on the upper left/lower left side of the pg. See the 8th post on that page below by "John Baker" who gives the OEM cam specs and from what they discuss, the OEM cams were 17 deg. retarded on intake opening!
    http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/foru...c,5836.15.html

    The MTS#5 Cam is definitely not like the factory OEM cam from what they've discussed there.....

    Getting the correct axle gear set, trans., torque converter, and bringing in all the timing advance of 30-36 degrees at 2000 rpm is what MTS said. Not a big deal, but just picking the best rear gears to match that cam is important to get your fuel economy...

    Good info in that 4pg thread......

    You can do a rebuilt Delco. I'll post some stuff on that tomorrow......

    Regards,
    Chris

  15. #45
    jayoldschool's Avatar
    jayoldschool is offline GM RWD V8 addict
    Automobile(s): 81 FWB D'Elegance coupe
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Has anyone noted that the 429 is a completely different engine than the 500/472/425/368 family?
    Bro-Ham and Bro-Ham like this.

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