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500, 472, 425, 368 Discussion, 472, how to boost fuel economy? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Been a looong time since I've had (or even seen) an 472, but I has two and I do remember ...
  1. #16
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Been a looong time since I've had (or even seen) an 472, but I has two and I do remember being happy when I got mine "UP TO" 12-13 MPG. Those puppies where not made for economy.

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayoldschool View Post
    This will not work without changing the rear gears. The gears are very high (low numerically), so OD will be useless. Cadillac was already doing everything they could to get mileage out of their cars by this point. The 56 Cad benefited because it has a gear set in the mid 3s, while the car in question will have a low 2 gear set.
    Actually, my '56 has 3.07, which is the original gear. What are the gears of a 69? Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but FWB, Roadmaster and Caprice's have 2.56 and 2.93 gears as hwy option for better mileage, with a 700R4 or 4L60E (same basic trans.). This combination gives the best highway mileage than with mid-3's and higher gears. You only lose out a little on acceleration. Since I've changed to 3.23 gears (from 2.56) in my 94 Fleetwood, the mileage dropped slightly,but performance increased. You also have to put the correct torque converter with the proper lock-up.[COLOR="Silver"]

    ----------

    I just looked it up and apparently, the 69 Cadillac has a 2.94 ratio, so putting a 700R4 with proper torque converter lock-up should improve mileage.

  3. #18
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayoldschool View Post
    This will not work without changing the rear gears. The gears are very high (low numerically), so OD will be useless. Cadillac was already doing everything they could to get mileage out of their cars by this point. The 56 Cad benefited because it has a gear set in the mid 3s, while the car in question will have a low 2 gear set.

    In my opinion, just make sure everything is in top running order. It is good that you can have your exhaust gas emissions monitored, this will greatly help with tuning. Fresh plugs, properly gapped, wires, cap, rotor, set timing. If still running a cat (and in Europe, I suspect you are), you will see a benefit to going to a modern monolith cat instead of the old restrictive pellet type. A little more efficiency can be gained by a freer flowing exhaust. If you can't do full duals, you can do a very nice two into one into duals:



    The best to hope for
    Jay, his car is a 1969 with the 472, no cat converters. I looked it up, the standard rear gear ratio for a 1969 is a 2.94:1(I'm sure other shorter ratios were optional), so no need to swap rear ends if he installs an overdrive tranny. In 1969 Cadillac didn't give a damn about such things as emissions or gas mileage. That's why I love the old 1960's Caddys, you couldn't buy a car that screamed louder "F you damn dirty hippies!!!"

    As far as overdrive trannies go, a stock 700R4 might be a bit weak, this car made over 500lb-ft torque stock. I'm sure a built 700R4 would hold up, but I'd go with a 4L80, that's GM's heavy duty overdrive they put into 3/4 and 1 ton trucks and vans. Very hard to break a 4L80, they are way more durable than a 700R4 or 4L60e. Also of note that Bentley used the 4L80e on its Arnage, that car had a 6.75 liter twin turbo v8 making 450hp and 646lb-ft torque. Like I said, you aren't going to break a 4L80e

  4. #19
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Wow, everyone already posted some of my ideas and I give them credit. Your getting very good advice here.

    This turned out to be a long post of info! I'm sure there will be those who wish I didn't post it because its' so long, but it should be very informative for all.......
    Grab some coffee's, tea's, or beers because by the time everyone gets through this long post your going to be WIRED and DRUNK! or a little Brain Fried!

    I just like to post back-up info and links to what I'm talking about so everyone can make better decisions......I love new automotive technology and apply it to old cars!

    I'd stay with the Delco plugs, and go 1-2 ranges colder then bump up timing to see what you can get without detonation and lean out the carb.....Old saying "Lean Is Mean"!

    One of the best ways to tune even a carburated engine on the road is with a WideBand O2 sensor. They're pretty affordable now. The best one is made by INNOVATE:
    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/


    Here's one for $167 U.S. Ebay has many listed.
    http://preracing.com/product_info.ph...-sensor-p-1573

    Definitely do an HEI Distributor! Maybe with an adjustable vacuum advance....I think Crane makes them.


    Here's some very good info on 472 HEI Conversion!!!!!!!!!!!
    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...onversion.html

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...installed.html

    "Look for a 74-79 Cadillac with a 472/500/425 for the HEI Distributor".......
    http://caddy500.com/index.php?topic=1047.0



    HEI Distributors 472:
    http://www.summitracing.com/search/y...e/distributors

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ms.../model/deville


    Transmission:

    Go with the 700R4 transmission if it can be adapted but it will need to be built stronger to handle the power/torque of the 472 engine. Transmission Center lists many upgrades for a 700R4 also known as the 4L60.

    Maybe post your question here: http://forums.500cid.com/showthread.php?t=636

    Ask these guys at Transmission Center:
    http://transmissioncenter.net/700R4_Swap_Info.htm

    Maybe go from the 3.94:1 gears down to 3.08's or lower...not sure what will fit that rear axle.


    There is also a transmission device called "Gear Vendors" which will give you an external over-drive on your TH400 Transmission. It will actually turn your 3 speed into a 6 speed automatic! See videos for explanation especially the video titled "Two Guys Garage" on this page:
    http://www.gearvendors.com/videoclips.html

    Carburetor:

    Edlebrock Manifold with an Edlebrock Carb: That should increase fuel efficiency.
    http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...erformer.shtml

    Edlebrock Carbs:
    http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...ess_main.shtml

    As mentioned before, you could always do fuel injection. There are many aftermarket easy to install and self learning performance fuel injection kits on both port injection or a "Throttle Body" setup which would improve fuel efficiancy. Edlebrock sells EFI kits, including full crate motors, HEI ignitions, ect.......

    Or you could always put a fully built LS Motor in, and is already tuned with and ECM controller from GM Performance Parts:
    http://www.gmperformancemotor.com/category/ERODE.html


    Sorry..........got carried away.........this stuff cost a lot of money!


    Anyway, back to basics...just like you were advised to replace many of the tune-up parts, My rational that I'm a huge advocate of:

    "Clean the motor out to improve on its efficiency then use a high end Synthetic Oil."


    Below are some basic cleaning procedures to perform on your engine. Maybe you already have done this to some extent......

    #1. What is the health of your motor?

    #2. Does it burn oil?

    #3. Have you performed a compression test both hot and cold and have you ever had a leak-down test?

    #4. Have you ever had this motor run on an Ignition Scope which will tell you almost everything of the condition of the mechanical, fuel system, and ignition system?

    It would be great if you could find a repair shop with either an old fashion Ignition Scope or even a modern day fancy scope like these. One is called a ACE Misfire and the other is popular in Europe called a Pico Scope that can do everything from compression test, to ignition scope and is very simple. For a small shop fee, it can give you a wealth of info very quickly about your motor both mechanical and ignition:
    http://acemisfire.com/D_Kit

    http://www.picoauto.com/engine-diagnostics-sensor.html

    http://www.picoauto.com/automotive-software.html


    #5. Have you ever had the heads off to see if the valves and piston tops are loaded with thick carbon?

    Carbon on the backs of valves and on the tops of pistons really affects fuel efficiancey. The carbon on the tops of the pistons raises the compression ratio which requires more fuel to stop detonation or, you will find yourself retarding the ignition timing to stop the detonation which greatly affects the motors efficiency. Carbon on the back of the intake valve will act like a sponge and soak up your fuel charge and again cause inefficient combustion.

    #6. Have you ever de-carboned this motor?

    Here in the U.S., there are a few ways to de-carbonize an engine. The first and slowest way is to use a fuel tank additive that contains a high concentration of PEA (Poly Ether Amine) which was developed by Chevron in the 1970's when the U.S switched to Un-leaded fuel with this additive to help eliminate the carbon problems. This product was called and trademarked as TECHRON. Gas that contained lead actually left a coating on the valves, pistons, combustion chamber which prevented carbon from hardening and building up. Here's a good explanation:
    http://www.techron.com/what-does-it-do/default.aspx#

    Today, many fuel tank additives contain PEA to break down combustion chamber/intake valve carbon, but most are proprietary in concentration. One additive that has the highest in by RedLine SI-1 which is the strongest detergent with PEA available at around 45%-50%. Techron by the bottle has been rumored to only have around 30%.

    Fuels around the world use low concentrations of PEA like Shell, Texaco, Chevron with a concentration of around 3-5% or more at the pump depending on what other countries require. Here's an explanation called TOP TIER GAS: http://www.toptiergas.com/

    All about the effects of Carbon:
    http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/052008_09.pdf
    or
    http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1317

    There are also products to quickly de-carbon a motor that are slowly poured into the Carburetor/Throttle Body. The most popular product in the U.S. is called Sea Foam. The best product was sold by GM and Cadillac Dealers for years and has been discontinued due to environmental laws since it created toxic fumes/smoke: "GM Top End Cleaner" was a very popular treatment for almost every car being serviced in the dealership and was used for years. Maybe your GM dealer in Europe still sells it: (GM Part# 1050002) or (part# 12345089).
    Maybe try E-bay in Europe!

    If you do a search on "GM Top End Cleaner", you will see many forums talking about its use. Here's one popular forum using other known good products like Amsoil Power Foam, Mopar cleaner, Johnson-Evenrude cleaner for decarbonizing boat motors.
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1630937&page=1


    Basically when using a "pour-down-throttle body/carb" product, the engine must be warm, then raise the engine to 1500-2000 RPM then slowly pour the product down the carb. and it will smoke heavily. When your almost finished with the product, pour last 1/4 of can in quickly to stall the motor and let it sit for 24-48hrs +. Then start it up, and rev it.....the exhaust will really smoke ....then fill the can with water, and raise the RPM's and slowly pour water down the carb while revving the motor. This is an old trick that even GM advocated in order to steam the carbon off the pistons.

    There are also other alternative "pour in throttle body/carburetor" type cleaners that maybe you are familiar with called Lubro-Moly Ventil Sauber made in Germany. See here:
    http://blog.bavauto.com/5000/bmw-min...rbon-cleaning/

    Liqui-Moly also has other very good products like their oil additive called MoS2 but you may not be able to use it and should ask them if you should use only an additive with ZDDP to protect your old camshaft.
    http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/p...oiladb=web.nsf

    Pg.1 http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/p...oiladb=web.nsf

    Pg.2 http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/p...oiladb=web.nsf

    I would even consider using a product to clean the oiling system up and which supposedly cleans the pistons ring packs. An old and popular product sold in the US is called Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) and another product that seems to be advocated is called AutoRX. Many people talk about it on an Oil Review Forum called "BOB IS THE OIL GUY" .
    http://www.auto-rx.com/instructions.shtml

    Recently, I purchased this machine here in the U.S. for fuel injection called Terra Clean after reading about it in that "MOTOR Magazine" article I posted above. I got a new $1000 machine for $125 on Ebay!!!!! A few years ago, it was reviewed on our automotive TV shows but never caught on but is very popular in Canada. This de-carbonizing machine is very different from other machines on the market and they can also do this treatment on a carburated engine:

    TerraClean U.S.A site: http://www.terraclean.net/news.php
    TerraClean U.K. site http://www.terraclean.co.uk/

    Here are some pretty intelligent people who discuss lubricants ect and another good product to clean the motor is called KREEN:
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...2250864&page=1



    Synthetic Oil with ZDDP:
    Amsoil synthetic engine oil, trans fluid, axle fluid or some other high end synthetic available in Europe but use one with high levels of ZDDP which is needed and protects older motors camshafts ect.

    http://classiccars.about.com/od/main...l-Additive.htm

    http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...tic-motor-oil/

    Amsoil Nano Air Filters to keeps the oil very clean and are high flowing vs. K&N:
    http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...ters-and-kits/

    http://www.hotrodhotline.com/pr/2009/09zzdpoilmarch/

    http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1

    http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/p...oiladb=web.nsf



    Again: My rational, is to try and clean the motor out to improve on its efficiency then use a high end Synthetic Oil including a small amount of Redline Si-1 Fuel cleaner or other additive with PEA in every tank full of fuel to keep everything clean and/or even a lead substitute in the fuel.


    I hope some of this info helps,

    Regards,
    Chris
    CADforce69 and CADforce69 like this.

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    There are so many ways to increase fuel efficiency of an old motor..........

    Another idea that I'm doing on my 91 Brougham is to convert over to electric fans to decrease the load on the belt drive. My 91 Brougham uses a HUGE mechanical fan but with a fan clutch. I bought the Flex-A-Lite #294 which is their quieter version fan with an "S" Blade design.
    http://automotive.flex-a-lite.com/du...ontroller.html

    From different articles I read mostly with Trucks that do the conversion, there is a small gain in Horsepower/Torque and small gain in fuel efficiancy.

    It states the #480 electric fan on this page will fit the 1969 Deville, but I'd check to see if you could install the larger #294 for better cooling and lower A/C temps by moving more air past the condensor which is another reason I bought that fan since I converted my a/C to 134a freon that does not blow as cold.
    http://automotive.flex-a-lite.com/ca...LLAC%3ADeVille

    Here are some other links:
    http://www.truckinweb.com/tech/engin...l/viewall.html

    http://flex-a-lite-blog.com/2012/02/...-electric-fan/

    http://flex-a-lite-blog.com/2010/08/...economy-gains/

    http://www.off-road.com/diesel/tech/...all-23682.html

    ----------

    I totally agree with you.............The 4L80 is the best transmission. I need to have my 700r4 built up, but if I go with a larger motor someday, it will have the 4L80!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aron9000 View Post
    Jay, his car is a 1969 with the 472, no cat converters. I looked it up, the standard rear gear ratio for a 1969 is a 2.94:1(I'm sure other shorter ratios were optional), so no need to swap rear ends if he installs an overdrive tranny. In 1969 Cadillac didn't give a damn about such things as emissions or gas mileage. That's why I love the old 1960's Caddys, you couldn't buy a car that screamed louder "F you damn dirty hippies!!!"

    As far as overdrive trannies go, a stock 700R4 might be a bit weak, this car made over 500lb-ft torque stock. I'm sure a built 700R4 would hold up, but I'd go with a 4L80, that's GM's heavy duty overdrive they put into 3/4 and 1 ton trucks and vans. Very hard to break a 4L80, they are way more durable than a 700R4 or 4L60e. Also of note that Bentley used the 4L80e on its Arnage, that car had a 6.75 liter twin turbo v8 making 450hp and 646lb-ft torque. Like I said, you aren't going to break a 4L80e


    ----------

    This site says the 69 Deville had 3.94:1.................where did everyone else find their info?
    http://www.oldride.com/library/1969_...c_deville.html
    I would think that car had the 3.94's with the 472 to Haul' A.S.S. back then before the fuel crisis.....


    2.94:1 here:
    http://automotivemileposts.com/cadil...d1969cadi.html

    Also 2.94:1 here:
    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...rear-axle.html

    Wow....7.3mpg:
    http://www.automobile-catalog.com/ma...oupe/1969.html

    2.94 again:
    http://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_details1.php

    He should verify it anyway to see what's in that Deville.


    Performance Specs. 0-60 8.1? 1/4 ml. 15.8?
    http://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_perf1.php

  6. #21
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    [QUOTE=cadchris;3172858]




    [/COLOR]This site says the 69 Deville had 3.94:1.................where did everyone else find their info?
    http://www.oldride.com/library/1969_...c_deville.html
    I would think that car had the 3.94's with the 472 to Haul' A.S.S. back then before the fuel crisis.....


    2.94:1 here:
    http://automotivemileposts.com/cadil...d1969cadi.html

    Also 2.94:1 here:
    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...rear-axle.html

    Wow....7.3mpg:
    http://www.automobile-catalog.com/ma...oupe/1969.html

    2.94 again:
    http://www.automobile-catalog.com/auta_details1.php

    He should verify it anyway to see what's in that Deville.


    QUOTE]

    I have a 1967 Cadillac shop manual and it says (for 1967 anyways) the diff ratios are: 2.94:1, 3.21:1, and 3.36:1.
    So I tend to agree with the specs of the 69 being 2.94:1.

  7. #22
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Oops, I read the original post a few days ago, then responded later. Somehow I was thinking of later mid 70s 472s when I posted. Yes, if the rear ratio is in the 3s, OD will help. OR, swap in one of the high gear sets from a mid 70s-81 car. Your acceleration will not be as brisk, but you will see the same effective final drive ratio as the OD swap. It will also cost less, and will swap right in with no mods to the car.

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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    IMO the cost and labor of an electric fan will never be realized at the gas pump. Adding electrical parts over pure mechanical operation is just bragging rights. You still must use the shroud to direct the air to the motor by the way.

  9. #24
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by carnut View Post
    IMO the cost and labor of an electric fan will never be realized at the gas pump. Adding electrical parts over pure mechanical operation is just bragging rights. You still must use the shroud to direct the air to the motor by the way.
    I'm thinking the main reason to do an electrical fan would be to reduce noise. The mechanical fan on my old 91 with the 350 was LOUD!

  10. #25
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Thanks for all for your answers!

    If still running a cat (and in Europe, I suspect you are), you will see a benefit to going to a modern monolith cat instead of the old restrictive pellet type.
    I don't have cat in my car. In Finland, cat became mandatory as late as 1992. In older cars, you don't have to have catalytic converters. Every year emission measurements came mandatory in 1978 and that gives old car tuners some freedom to built engine. Usually all emission control components are taken away from cars before tight emission standards in 1992.

    A little more efficiency can be gained by a freer flowing exhaust. If you can't do full duals, you can do a very nice two into one into duals:
    I have free flowing dual exhaust in my car.





    Definitely do an HEI Distributor! Maybe with an adjustable vacuum advance....I think Crane makes them.
    I have to check condition of my stock distributor. If It is in bad shape, I will change to HEI. They have a test bench for old distributors here in local techical school, so I take my distributor to them.


    There is also a transmission device called "Gear Vendors" which will give you an external over-drive on your TH400 Transmission. It will actually turn your 3 speed into a 6 speed automatic!
    Does this thing really work in tranny with no lock-up torque converter?

    That thing makes engine run slower->more slippage in torque converter= heat problems and not much better mileage.

    Personally I think that only way to get better mileage from tranny is to change the whole thing to another. 4L60 or 4L80 would be an option if my original transmission starts to wreck in some point. The big question is: Does it make any sence to buy new tranny (3500-4000$ or even more) when I can get over 1800 liters of gas with the same money? I think yes if I had some extra money and no if I don't have. Right now I don't have that much extra money so I make that tranny change in future.

    By the way, does those 4L60 and 4L80 (and 4L85) trannys chage gears as smooth as the original TH400?

    Edlebrock Manifold with an Edlebrock Carb: That should increase fuel efficiency.
    http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...erformer.shtml
    Here people have pretty much those Edelbrocks in old american cars, so It should not be difficult to find one used. And of course we have Ebay

    #1. What is the health of your motor?
    It runs smoothly and emissions were good. Motor does not have any oil leaks.

    #2. Does it burn oil?
    Yes, about 1 liter/1000miles.

    #3. Have you performed a compression test both hot and cold and have you ever had a leak-down test?
    No I haven't. I think I'll do those in spring when I start to drive with my caddy again.

    #4. Have you ever had this motor run on an Ignition Scope which will tell you almost everything of the condition of the mechanical, fuel system, and ignition system?
    No I haven't. I should ask local shops if they have that kind of systems.

    #5. Have you ever had the heads off to see if the valves and piston tops are loaded with thick carbon?
    No, but I think they are full of carbon. When I bought this car, It was not maintenanced in ages so, why would someone remove the carbons if they even haven't changed the oil?

    #6. Have you ever de-carboned this motor?
    Nope. In Finland, we put some water in sprayer bottle and run engines on "high" rpm (rpm is dependent to engine) and spray some water fog in carburetor. That should clean the engine from carbon. Water is sprayed in carburetor as long as carbon comes out. This thing is easy to do in winter, when there is snow on the ground. You can look at the snow and if its black, engine is still dirty, if its white, engine is clean.

    I would even consider using a product to clean the oiling system up and which supposedly cleans the pistons ring packs.
    Does this have any risks?

    I've heard that those products can block oil channels (wrong term??) when all that crap starts to move in engine. Of course in Finland, we have lots of smaller engines which have smaller oil channels. Does those products have any risk in bigger engines?

    Amsoil synthetic engine oil, trans fluid, axle fluid or some other high end synthetic available in Europe but use one with high levels of ZDDP which is needed and protects older motors camshafts ect.
    I have used Valvoline Turbo 10W-40 oil which should have ZDDP. I think I gonna change to VR-1. Is VR-1 good stuff? It has high grades of ZDDP, It's easy to get (many stores got that stuff in shelves) but its 5W-50 racing oil.

    What oil I should pour into my transmission when I change tranny oil? Dexron II or A-type or what? Some pepole say that todays Dexron II oil will slip more than before when they made this stuff from whale oil? Is this true?

  11. #26
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    All DEXTRON fluids are compatable. I use Synthetic blend in my 84 sedan.

  12. #27
    drmenard is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Hey Jay... this is a 69, they did not put on a cat until 75.. They don't make you put a cat on old cars, do they?

  13. #28
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aron9000 View Post
    I'm thinking the main reason to do an electrical fan would be to reduce noise. The mechanical fan on my old 91 with the 350 was LOUD!
    Yeah, my 305 is loud also which is why I'm doing the Electric Fan Kit. Maybe I'll see some gain in HP/TQ/MPG's on that small motor, but it'll be quieter and better A/C performance. A few years there was a few magazine articles and they also showcased it on some of the TV Car/Truck Shows bragging about the gains. But, I just read the 472/500 pistons are the same size as an old 1qt Oil Can!

    So the fan isn't going to show much of anything in with big-a ss displacement!

  14. #29
    cadchris's Avatar
    cadchris is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Well, I just spent the whole evening reading through 10 different forums and 20 threads about the 472/500 including transmission swaps and gears. For now; it's going to take some time to post this info with the links......but from what I've read, its from very genuine and authentic sources who know the 472/500..................

    .......HOW DOES 22 MPG's SOUND FOR THE RECORD ON A 472 WITH A SPECIALLY DESIGNED CAMSHAFT SWAP?!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure there is more to it and you'll have to contact these manufactures and post on these different forums that I'll list.

    Apparently, a lot guys are seeing 15-18 mpgs from matched gears to cams and transmission ect. Doesn't sound too expensive from what I've read. But, there is definitely a HUGE following of the 472/500 and a lot of research and design/ development in performance parts for those motors.

    I'll try to post it all logically soon.


    Anyway, I just wanted to comment on some of what you posted:


    #1. Definitely put an HEI (High Energy Ignition) Distributor in this motor. It's solid state technology far surpasses the conventional points setup and will improve how this motor runs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributor

    HEI was a huge step in ignition technology from previous points design:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_energy_ignition

    Although, HEI's do have some inherant problems. I've reserched this and have come up with many mods. to do on my 91 Eldo's HEI. One of the best things you can do for an "In cap Coil HEI" is to get that coil out of the cap! This reaquires a "Cap-Adapt" kit which allows you to run an external coil. The internal coil design gets really hot and is hard on the module. Also, there is a lot of EMI created by the "In-Cap" High Energy Coil which affects the module to false trigger which is why GM started to put a small metal shield over some HEI modules. Its just better to convert over to an external oil filled coil and not epoxy filled so it stays cool for stable output which is heavily debated by one expert in the industry by the name Dave Ray of Daves Small Body HEI's who also advocate the Large Cap HEI's that Ford used and improved on the GM HEI design which has wider spaces between terminal to prevent cross firing in the HEI Cap that the GM HEI's have problems with.

    In addition, a module mounted under an "in cap coil", will heat up and it requires a special heat sink compound grease to transfer the heat out of the module and into the distributor body. Many use "Dielectric Grease" which is the wrong stuff and will insulate the module and not allow it to transfer the heat. The best heat sink grease to use is the same stuff used for your home computer's heatsink for the processor.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_grease

    I can do a whole write-up on the best greases and the right and wrong way to apply it........it should be applied in a long straight line and push the module into it and let the module spread the grease.........there are some good YOUTUBE Videos on the subject, but many say it's over-kill, but I've gone through some of the Accel junk performance modules and have learned my lesson. All internal distributor parts, including the module should be AC Delco!

    Also, these HEI's require good clean power and should be wired with a quality relay and 10-8 awg wire. There is so much tech info I can post on modifying an HEI that many are not aware of.

    In addition to all my research and the mods I'm going to do on my own HEI, I just found some EXCELLENT info. and one of the members is from a well known fuel injection service company, so this guy, if it's Jim Linder, definitely knows his stuff on GM HEI's, coils, and modules and this info would apply to any HEI setup.
    http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=617596



    #2. Regarding the Gear Vendors. From what I've read this evening, I was surprised it came up many times in different threads. Some say "yes", some say "no". The concensus is to go with a 700R4 but it definitely needs to be built stronger and it starts to get expensive. Other people have said to go with the 200R4. Some even say with the right cam and gears, the TH400 is still the strongest and can also get good fuel economy.......... I'll post those links for you soon.

    You posted the 4L60. That is the same as the 700R4. Did you mean the 4L60E but many have also stated on those other forums to go with the 4L80E with an aftermarket transmission controller.


    #3. I've read that some say Headers are a definite improvement on the 472/500's.


    #4. As far as an Ignition Scope, many of the old guys were the true experts at reading the patterns. For the past 15 yrs, most factory technicians never used a scope and were not trained how to use them as they were old technology and they relied on their scan tools. In the recent years, there is been a lot of training ect. on how to use and read a scope pattern on new cars to help diagnose misfire ect. problems. Snap-On is a major manf. of scanners for newer computer controlled cars. They have integrated a scope in 2 of their newer scanners called the Modis and Versus.These handheld scopes are great for reading ignition patterns while driving just like those other scopes I listed previously. Originally, the scopes back in the 1960's 70's and 80's were made by SUN Electronics. They can be found in some old repair shops but were the most valuable diagnostic tool..here's what they look like:
    http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-a...kend-pics.html


    #5. Some people on those forums also spoke about the Edelbrock upgrades, but others said to go with even better set ups that you'll see in the followup posts that I'll put together.


    #6. There is a lot more to Decarboning a motor other than only using water. Unless you have a "Fiber Optic Borescope" and can verify that only water works, I can tell you with great certainty, water alone does not work. I have a borescope and have verified many different products and how each works including water. The only thing you are removing is mostly "rich soot" and maybe some softer carbon by just using water alone. If you can see small chucks, then yes its working somewhat but you need a chemical to heatsoak into the hard layer of carbon to soften it before using the water. Also, its going to take a lot more water than a spray bottle. If you mist the water in, it will have already vaporized way before it even gets down the runner to the intake valve, combustion chamber and piston. Many times, I have trickled in 1-2 liters of water down a carb or throttle body on newer cars and have never hydrolocked a motor or bent a rod. It's not going to happen on that 472! You just trickle (just a little less than a steady stream) and enough to get the water to the valves and combustion chamber where it vaporizes and cracks the carbon off. This is how the old GM Caddy mechanics taught me how to do it.

    Funny, I remember stories these guys told that they used to throw hand fulls of rice down the carb's of Flat Head Fords to get the carbon out! Many years ago, there was a system that used crushed Walnut Shells under forced air and vacuumed out to de-carbon motors!

    Hmmm, I bet a hand full of snow could do wonders to decarbon an engine!

    You just need a chemical process to heat soak and soften the carbon, and the fuel additive with the highest PEA like Redline SI-1 to really break down the carbon.



    #7. As far as cleaning the oil system; have you ever had the valve cover off or the oil pan? If the sludge is greater than 4mm or 1/8 inch. Then aggressive cleaning could clog the screen. If it is that thick, you could do a 10min flush with a kerosene type cleaner purchased at the parts store, drain the oil through a house "window screen" to see if there are any large chunks of sludge and/or cut open the oil filter. Then, pour 6-7 quarts of diesel fuel into the crank case and let it sit for 24-48 hrs. Throughout this time, shake the cars front end really hard for a few minutes by pushing against the fender in order to agitate and mix that solution in the crank case which would possibly loosen it from the pump pick up screen then drain the diesel fuel through a screen to see if you see chunks of debris, or if the diesel fuel is black and thick, or clear. Diesel fuel is high in detergents and I've even run a quart in the oil for a quick flush which is an old technique. Many also use a quart of trans fluid to do the same. You may want to see how your oil pressure is before doing this then check it after.

    You'd be surprised how these old mechanics used to treat these engines back then.........even in the dealerships!

    But using a very good synthetic oil with its detergent package will slowly break down the sludge. Have you ever performed an Oil Analysis? Many diesel marine/truck repairs shops even have these oil analyses in their shop. My local Diesel/Marine/Heavy Equipment repair center only charges $15 per sample and tells a lot about what's going on in the engine and the condition of the oil life.


    #8. Here's a little on what I found on Valvoline VR1 and NOT to use RACING OIL in a street car since it does not have the detergent packaged needed for a street car. When you read these forums, they often refer to conventional (non-synthetic oil) as "Dino" which means Dinosaur, which means its oil from the ground of the left over extinct Dinosaurs.....something like that!

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1712458

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...2135252&page=1

    More info on Valvoline Products:
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...ue#Post2843728

    Race oils are for short use and drain periods.



    #9. Good info here on TH400 Fluid. I'd probably use DextronIII which is good advice from one of the better known members. Some of the members on that Forum are chemists and are really knowledgeable:
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...2631594&page=1


    I'll work on that other info regarding the fuel efficency of the 472/500, Transmissions Info, and Rear Axle Gears recommendations.

    Regards,
    Chris

  15. #30
    The Ape Man's Avatar
    The Ape Man is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by jayoldschool View Post
    Oops, I read the original post a few days ago, then responded later. Somehow I was thinking of later mid 70s 472s when I posted. Yes, if the rear ratio is in the 3s, OD will help. OR, swap in one of the high gear sets from a mid 70s-81 car. Your acceleration will not be as brisk, but you will see the same effective final drive ratio as the OD swap. It will also cost less, and will swap right in with no mods to the car.
    None of the rear axle stuff fits in these older cars. After '76 Cadillac became a lot more like the rest of GM.

    IIRC there was also a 3:15:1 rear axle ratio for trailer towing or limo back in the day.

    A 4L80e would help a lot on highway driving but so little or nothing around town. It would take a long time to pay for itself. That swap needs a computer to go along.

    4L60 I can envision broken parts everywhere after a few full throttle takeoffs.

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