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500, 472, 425, 368 Discussion, 472, how to boost fuel economy? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; I e-mailed Equus here in the U.S., but they do not distribute to Europe from their U.S. office. So I ...
  1. #151
    cadchris's Avatar
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I e-mailed Equus here in the U.S., but they do not distribute to Europe from their U.S. office. So I called them just now......... They told me to tell you to do an internet, e-bay search for the items #5568 or #590 518


    I think Equus U.S. is a private licenced company here in the U.S. and there are other licenced company's in Europe who sell their product line and timing lights. These things are made in Tawian but their old web-site has no contact info to e-mail them but I found 1 or 2 representatives in Taiwan to e-mail.
    I'll try to see if they can give me a distributor list in Europe or Finland or if they will sell to you direct from the factory.

    I did find the Equus 5568 on the German "Amazon" site if it helps.
    http://www.amazon.de/Stroboskoplampe...s+timing+light

    Here is the Taiwan site and product #590 518. Maybe try that number when doing a search. Also try a broad internet search "Innova or Equus Timing Light":
    http://www.equus.cn/english/products....asp?app_id=26

    http://www.equus.cn/english/products....asp?app1_id=9

    Just to note, if you find one, make sure it has the metal inductive clamp. My old one had a plastic clamp which warped since I had it too close to the exhaust manifold when clamped on the plug wire. Also, if you don't get a signal, take the clamp off and turn it around when attaching to the plug wire.

  2. #152
    70eldo's Avatar
    70eldo is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Hey 3dfx

    check out voelkner.de for tools and equipment.
    Otherwise Sweden has a VAST community of classic US cars and have many parts stores there.
    Good luck!

  3. #153
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    3dfx.

    I just got a reply from the Taiwan mfg. of the Equus/Innova Timing Light that has multiple functions.

    Maybe you've heard about this company called "CEI Conrad Electronic" part #857336:
    http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/...ming-Light-12V

    http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/content/...int/cms_au_int


    There are so many cheap timing lights made in China which is where I found the Taiwan manufacture of Equus on Alibaba.com.

    I did find the same timing light on the link that "70Eldo" posted. The "Red" colored timing light has all the functions and the "Black" timing light is just a basic timing light: Product #C34228
    http://www.voelkner.de/categories/68...te.html?page=3

  4. #154
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I did find the same timing light on the link that "70Eldo" posted. The "Red" colored timing light has all the functions and the "Black" timing light is just a basic timing light: Product #C34228
    This voelkner.de has cheapest equus "red" timing light I have seen in Europe.

    I still have to check what Swedish shops has to offer.



    I had to add first liter of oil into my engine. It burns one liter on 1000miles....

    Maybe I rebuild my engine in next winter..

    I was thinking, does any other engine than Cadillac engine fit in my Cadillac without any huge work? Something like olds 350 or 307? Those engines are cheap in Finland (something like 40 to 100 euros). Could some eighties olds 307 fit in Cadillac easily? I've been thinking this could be temporary engine for just as long until the rebuild is completed.

    Cadillac engines are rare and expensive in here..

  5. #155
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I opened some new threads about my problems and rebuilding my engine:

    Cadillac 1969 quadrajet bad idle First I thought my idle problems were caused by wrong mixtures but it went problems went worse...

    Thread about my engine rebuild

    Thread about swapping olds engine to my cadillac for the time when my rebuild is ready

  6. #156
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Hello again

    Recently I have been thinking about installing numerically lower rear axle gears. Something like mid to late 70's Cadillacs had. Only problem is converter slippage. I'm afraid about having higher stall speed converter in my '69 than those late 70's cars.

    Are there any differences in those torque converters?



    I got some information about my engine healt soon when I get my homemade pass-leak-tester ready..

  7. #157
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I can't remember if I sent you the links on how to make your own "Cylinder Leak Down Tester". This info was probably the best info I've seen:

    http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/11...er-prelim.html

    In the link above are 2 YOUTUBE videos. Make sure you read all the comments in each video for more info.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UcOn8OEt0Y

    I posted in the video above and verified that this person knows what he is talking about:
    Here's what the "evolutionm forum" stated: "Anyone who knows anything about the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) knows FAA doesn't screw around when it comes to engine maintenance standards. FAA established the standard for leakdown testing, and requires a 1mm (.040") orifice be placed between the two gauges. In other words, when pressure is applied (e.g. 100psi), what we are looking for is leakage in the cylinder as compared to the airflow through a 1mm orifice at that pressure."

    There are also many tech. articles and techniques on doing and correctly diagnosing problems with a "Leak Down Tester" :
    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...r/viewall.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNf0IOIvIcY

    There are many videos on the side bar of Youtube or on the internet but this was some of the best info I found.


    As far as the converter, I think think the 1st most important factor is to match it to the cam shaft then rear gears, but I think the experts say it must be matched to the cam, gears, weight, ect....ect....

    You should probably e-mail YANK Converters http://www.converter.cc/ , or
    Precission Industries http://www.converter.com/ ,
    Arte Carr http://www.cpttransmission.com/media.htm

    These are smaller company's who specialize in building well engineered billet converters which are very high quality vs. the regular performance converters out there. You may also ask your question to TCI which is a much larger mainstream company. Not sure if you want to try and swap out a later converter for your car....but, I'd send an e-mail to these guys for advice.

  8. #158
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I got my leak-down tester ready today. I soldered 1mm welding nozzle inside pneumatic pipe with silver to get this small orifice done.




    ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨pressure meter pressure meter
    ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨||¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨||
    male coupling=== pressure regulator== ==1mm orifice== ====female coupling



    I compared results with mag-tools factory made leak down tester and I got pretty similar results with my tester. Maybe next weekend I'll test my cadillac for pass leaks.

  9. #159
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Hi

    Today I managed to check half of cylinders with my friend before my friend had to go to night shift...


    Cylinder 1 was way worse than the others. It had 50% pass leak, and it all leaked to cylinder 6 and carburetor, if my memory serves. Does cylinder 6 have intake stroke when cylinder one ignites? The intake valve's rocking arm didn't have any gap. I poured some oil into cylinder and it didn't made any difference.

    I should have plugged the spark plug hole, where air came out and then check where air comes out....... Well, I'll check that tomorrow.


    Other cylinders had something like 30% pass leak and they didn't came much better when I poured small amout of oil into cylinder. So, guess I'm having bad valves.....

  10. #160
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I got all my cylindres tested, and here are my results with cold engine:

    1. 50%
    2. 24%
    3. 35%
    4. 30%
    5. 30%
    6. 30%
    7. 30%
    8. 35%

    I poured some oil and result went something like 10% better.


    One strange thing occured when I measured cylinder 4. First I couldn't get any good results. I got something like 80% leakage. Then strange "BLOP"- sound came from engine, and after that I got this 30% leakage. Could there be some hardened carbon between cylinderhead (I don't know what that machined sealing surface is in english....) and valve? And when I pressurised that cylinder, air flow and pressure blew some carbon into exhaust and closed the valve? I think this carbon between cylinder head and valve can cause some leak in this motor because those valve springs are very weak and they can't shut that valve......

    What kinds of results this kind of engine should get?

  11. #161
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I was going to let others maybe comment before I did on your last post.......as I said in the past and was going to say again, but you answered your own question......"carbon, Carbon, CARBON".

    I'm sure that's what's going on. From what I've read about that motor is that the valve springs are weak and can be pushed in by hand. That is not a lot of pressure on the "Valve Seat" which I believe you are talking about and didn't know the name of. Minimal pressure would allow build up of carbon since the valve does not have a lot high pressure tension on it (valve seat pressure) which would keep the valve clean. That's what I think has happened on your motor.....in addition, oil is probably getting past the rings because they ring pack is seized up with carbon allowing more oil to be burned creating more combustion chamber carbon. I'm sure the valve seals are also probably allowing oil into the upper valves causing again, more carbon, but that could be controlled if everything was cleaned with continuous treatment of the fuel or the seals can be easily replaced without removing the heads........

    I don't know if it's possible to bend valves on that motor.

    I think somewhere on this thread I gave you some idea's of what to use to dissolve carbon other than water.

    The old Berryman B12 Chemtool #0116 product we have here in the U.S. since the 1940's is a very strong solevant.

    I found my notes from their chemists who told me it can be re-produced if you can not find it:

    A ratio of::::::: 2 parts Tolulene : 1 part Acetone : 1 part MEK ( Methyl ethyl ketone) 2 liter of Tol, 1 liter of Acetone, and 1 Liter of MEK. Maybe mix in some light weight oil for lubrication and to extend the "wet time" since they will evaporate very quickly....... These chemicals can be purchased at your local paint store.

    The trick would be to somehow soak the backs of the valves. You really have to put some thought into this for an aggressive treatment and soak which will also help dissolve carbon in the ring pack.

    Here's maybe one way to do it. Remove all spark plugs, remove the coil wire, place towels over each bank of spark plug holes, crank the motor for about 5 seconds while pouring in a 1/2 liter of this mixture down the carburetor. Maybe use a weak battery to crank slowly. Allow to soak for 24 hrs. Hopefully some valves will end up closed and keep the mixture in contact with the seat/valves, but it will probably all leak past within a few minutes to seconds. Do the procedure again for maybe 3 seconds, and hopefully other valves will end up closed allowing the liquid to soak the valves/seats. Do this a few times over the next few days, and drain the oil or take the drain plug out while doing this. Keeping the plugs out will ensure you don't get hydro-lock, but I'm sure all of the fluid would drain into the pan within minutes or within a few hours. If it doesn't, you will know which ring packs are clean and tight because when cranking, all of the fluid would shoot out of the plugs holes.

    Maybe even loosen all of the intake rocker arms, and just pour the mixture down the carburetor and fill up the intake manifold and allow it to soak into the combustion chamber, but keep the plugs in this way you flood each combustion chamber and fill it up so the level stays above the valves. It will eventually soak past each piston and out the oil pan. I would collect the mixture, and filter it through rags, and reuse it and keep pouring it down the carburetor. You may even need to drill a small hole into the lowest point of the exhaust pipe under the exhaust manifolds to drain any fluid that may get into the exhaust or remove a lower section of exhaust to blow out the mixture when cranking......

    Allow it to soak for a few days to soften the carbon. Then do a rinse with kerosene / diesel fuel mixed with light weight oil to re-coat all parts with some oil before start up and to flush out the Tolulene/MEK/Acetone mixture. After you flushed it out, maybe leave the plugs out, and drain plug to allow all of the Tol/MEK/ACT to flash-off and evaporate for 24 hours. Try to spin/rotate the valves by hand back and forth. Tighten all of the rocker arms to specification, put a few squirts of oil into each cylinder, start/crank the motor without the plugs, install plugs, add oil, and start it up and allow to idle up to temperature, then use water or carburetor cleaner down the carb while revving the motor, then take it out on the road and do full speed passes/runs to blow out carbon.

    That's an extreme approach. I and some of our old fleet mechanics have done similar procedures and our Delivery Trucks with Big Block Chevy Motors. They survived and no reason the Caddy motor couldn't.

    Just think about what your doing and take a methodical approach.

    You could always just keep trying the fuel additives, or just remove the heads to clean the valves manually, and then do a piston soak when the heads are off and allow some strong solevant to sit on top of the pistons.......

    One of the best ways to dissolve carbon is ammonia based paint stripper or even 10% ammonia by itself but that would wash down the cylinder walls. There is even restaurant Grill and Oven Stove Cleaner, which is Tolulene or Amonia based that dissolves hard carbon on stoves, grills, and cooking pots.

    I think I mentioned somewhere here about some strong but factory approved carbon cleaners:

    GM Piston and Ring Cleaner #12378549. It should be available in Europe, but is expensive but will be hard to direct it to clean the valve with the heads on. Also GM CLEENS also known as GM Top End Cleaner (TEC) but is no longer sold in the U.S. but can be found on e-bay:
    http://www.j-body.com/forum/showthre...m-back-tomorow

    Or; MOPAR CCC (Combustion Chamber Cleaner)

    Here is a specific TSB and specific technique on using it:
    http://jameskbeard.com/jameskbeard/C...onsumption.pdf

    There was also a cleaner I posted about that is popular to dissolve firearm / gun carbon called "Ed's RED Bore Cleaner".

    Here is a very well known product that is environmentally friendly, but is used to soak parts after dissembled. I've talked to the mfg. about using in the engine, but they said their concern would be flash rust on iron like the cylinder walls.

    http://www.orisonllc.com/pistonkleen.html


    Depends on how aggressive you want to get with treating this condition, but this motor appears to be badly carboned from my initial thoughts before you did the leak-down or compression test which seems to indicate it. After this aggressive carbon soak, I'm sure the compression test and leak-down will improve significantly.

    Once again, the engine can not be efficient for fuel economy if it has ton's of carbon.

    Maybe others can add their concerns, thoughts and ideas...

    ----------

    By the way, to answer your question about what is acceptable for leakdown specs....

    Here's another article on the subject and they confirm anything more than 20% for any engine is too much.

    I still believe you have carboned valve seats and ring packs
    :


    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...r/viewall.html


    Simple tips:

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ercentage.html

    Old TAVIA Tool Instructions:
    http://web.archive.org/web/200402251...tructions.html
    70eldo likes this.

  12. #162
    T-ELDO is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    You might try disconnecting the secondaries on the carb. Then you would only be running on the front primaries, which is how the motor runs most of the time anyway, and the secondaries would never open if you happened to get into the throttle sometime. My 76 Eldorado with the 500 gets
    about 14 mpg on the highway like this, which might not be so great, but it gets it in style!!

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