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500, 472, 425, 368 Discussion, 472, how to boost fuel economy? in Cadillac Engine Technical Discussion; Have we had success getting the distributor out yet?...
  1. #136
    cadillac_al is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Have we had success getting the distributor out yet?

  2. #137
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Today I got my distributor to rotate. After two cans of freezing spray, and lots of penetration oil, my distributor started to rotate. I used big pipe wrench to rotate it. I rotated it four times around and sprayed penetration oil into it. Still, it won't rotate without that big pipe wrench. So, I have breaked the corrosion bond between engine block and distributor. We sprayed from three freezing spray cans simultaneously with my friend.

    I still couldn't get that distributor out of there. I'm now making a special tool for giving vertical impact for my distributor. I will make a slide hammer and some kind of tool to put under the distributor. With that I can give some mild impacts at the same time when my friend rotates distributor. I'll make that tool in the weekend if my flu won't get worse.

    To answer your question about CO2 Welding Gas. Yes, you can use CO2 Welding Gas, but it must not be mixed with any other gas like Argon which is commonly mixed together for welding. If you can get regular CO2 Gas, you must turn the tank upside down to dispense the liquid CO2 to make Powder Dry Ice. Or get a CO2 tank that has an internal "siphon dip tube" and when the valve is opened, it will release liquid CO2 when the tank is standing upright.

    The next best alternative to make powered dry ice easily is with a CO2 Fire Extinguisher. Make sure it is ONLY a CO2 Fire Extinguisher and does not contain any other chemical.

    Here are many links on making Dry Ice from CO2:
    My welding gas is just CO2 and nothing else. I'll have to try to make some dry ice. Dry ice could be very usefull in everywhere.

  3. #138
    outsider is online now Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Good to hear! I also have yet to get my distributor to come out. It turns if I use my big adjustable wrench on it but can't turn by hand.

    Please share if that special tool you're planning to make works out! I also considered making something like that but haven't had time.

  4. #139
    cadchris's Avatar
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Hey 3dfx.

    Consider this also. In some industry that uses scientific industrial tools, I know I've seen some kind of tool that has a probe that gives off ultra-sonic high/low frequency harmonic pulsations when the tool touches the object. I found a few different very high tech tools, but not specifically what I was looking for.

    However, I just remembered this tool and it should do the same and should work. You may know someone who has one these tools below, or can rent it at a tool supply store.

    Its called a "Concrete Vibrator". It gives off about 12,000 high frequency vibrations per minute. Touching the distributor base, while packed in dry ice, along with a pipe wrench moving it back and forth, with penetrating oil, and possibly some gentle prying under the distributor collar should finally get that distributor out in 1 piece without breaking it. Maybe figure out some way of clamping or attaching the end of the tool to the distributor and pull on it with the tool running.

    Or place this tool under the distributor housing (horizontally) on the upper side but under the housing and allow it to hang over on 1 side to attach a rope to the outer end of the probe then another piece of rope attached on the inner end. Turn the machine on and pull while even twisting with a pipe wrench.........
    Even attach the 2 ropes to a piece of board or large wrench to make a handle in order to pull on up on it. Hopefully you can visualize what I am talking about.

    See Videos:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P4tKtwbEAk
    http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...ct_17783_17783

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI2dWojG9fE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yysjW9FTIMI

    There is a cool attachment for a drill on Youtube, but the link won't paste here correctly. Do a search for "Wallbrator" on Youtube or see 14th video on this Youtube Channel:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/liteform/videos

    "The Wacker":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRAXAEFGluc

    Anyway, if that doesn't work, you'll certainly show that distributor a good time!

  5. #140
    The Ape Man's Avatar
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I think a warm engine would be better if it still runs. That's how I did mine.

    I had a large wrench on the distributor and moved it back and fourth for the better part of an hour before the thing started really moving. Pretty brutal.

  6. #141
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    If you haven't read the Metalurgist forum's thread that I posted my concerns in a few pages ago, here it is again:

    http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=345616

    Most of the Engineers and Metalurgist confirmed my initial recommendations. The aluminum is very conductive vs. the cast iron and the thermal expansion rate of Aluminum is greater than cast iron. Yes the cast iron bore will slightly enlarge at 200 F. but the cast aluminum will also act as a heatsink and expand exponentially due to aluminum's characteristics. Just to note, were dealing with 2 different types of metals unlike heating a bolt or other object that most times are "like" metals.

    It was also confirmed to only carefully heat the distributor to a certain temp. to tighten it in the cast iron bore to crush the corrosional bond. Then allow to cool over night to allow the cast aluminum to shrink in order to provide more clearance in the bore. This heating cycle is an attempt to initially crush the corrosion particles.

    Then after heat cycle/treatment: supercooling the distributor is agreed to be most logical in order to give the most clearance to shrink that cast aluminum distributor shaft away from the cast iron bore in order to remove it in addition with the use of penetrating oil, and my recommendation of some form of induced harmonic vibrations.

  7. #142
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Quote Originally Posted by cadchris View Post
    If you haven't read the Metalurgist forum's thread that I posted my concerns in a few pages ago, here it is again:

    http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=345616

    Most of the Engineers and Metalurgist confirmed my initial recommendations. The aluminum is very conductive vs. the cast iron and the thermal expansion rate of Aluminum is greater than cast iron. Yes the cast iron bore will slightly enlarge at 200 F. but the cast aluminum will also act as a heatsink and expand exponentially due to aluminum's characteristics. Just to note, were dealing with 2 different types of metals unlike heating a bolt or other object that most times are "like" metals.

    It was also confirmed to only carefully heat the distributor to a certain temp. to tighten it in the cast iron bore to crush the corrosional bond. Then allow to cool over night to allow the cast aluminum to shrink in order to provide more clearance in the bore. This heating cycle is an attempt to initially crush the corrosion particles.

    Then after heat cycle/treatment: supercooling the distributor is agreed to be most logical in order to give the most clearance to shrink that cast aluminum distributor shaft away from the cast iron bore in order to remove it in addition with the use of penetrating oil, and my recommendation of some form of induced harmonic vibrations.
    Were you able to identify the exact allows in the distributor and block in order to get an accurate comparison of thermal expansion?

    Mine didn't move at all until I heated the engine and cooled the distributor. I should have included the cooling the distributor part once again.

  8. #143
    cadchris's Avatar
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    The answer I got from the Metalurgist on that forum is what I expected and there is not a way to i.d. the "alloy's" (metal composition) of the block or distributor unless someone would submit it for lab analysis. But, one engineer eluded to the generalities of expansion rates which was at least my intention to see if someone would post a comment.
    Heating the engine and cooling the distributor was my original idea and made sense due to the high expansion/contraction rates of aluminum, but in approaching the extreme in both directions concerned me which is why I wanted to ask the engineers on that forum regarding this or even less, (warmer) extreme variance in temps. One engineer did confirm my belief of cracking something due to thermal shock.

    In the case of this heavy duty cast iron block, I seriously doubt it, but I'd be concerned of super-cooling the distributor to -300F+. with liquid nitrogen which I had a feeling at those temps would definitely cause alloy brittleness. But the availability of liquid nitrogen would also be a problem, which is why I thought of different compressed gasses "boiling point temps" (discharge temps) but most were in the -15 range like the easiest available of 134a Freon. Of course, other refrigerants are colder but hard to obtain and not legal to discharge into the open atmosphere like R22 or others:
    http://www.airgasrefrigerants.com/re...ing-points.php

    That is why I concluded the best, safest and fairly easy way to super cool the distributor to -70F with liquid CO2, or -100F with dry ice made from liquid CO2, which is easily obtainable in some form like a CO2 gas cylinder or "CO2 ONLY" fire extinguisher, or already made dry ice which is harder to find. Here is S. Fl., it's at every grocery store, but can be found at welding supply stores or compressed gas suppliers. The best would to make your own powdered dry ice from CO2 because in can be form and compacted around the distributors for quick sub-chilling before thermal soaking into the block bore....... I hope everyone can understand my rational of my all my suggestions as being the most methodical and scientific way of removing these stuck distributors......

    Here's another chart on "boiling points of some common gases":
    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bo...ses-d_155.html

    Boiling Point = discharge temps into open atmosphere.

    ApeMan, how did you cool your distributor, and heat your block. What approx. temps?

  9. #144
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Engineers scare me frankly.

    I heated my engine by running it. Went for a long drive.

    Cooled the distributor by spraying aerosol stuff laying around on the shelves here since the 90s. Had a can of CRC silicon spray lube.

    I have no way of knowing if the cooling made any difference but suspect it could have. As mentioned before the part of the distributor that was binding is way below the distributor clamp.

    It may have been easier to stand the car on it"s front bumper for a month.

  10. #145
    drmenard is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I have not read all this post, but if your having trouble getting a distributor out of a 472-500 or 425 read the first three posts of this thread.. http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...rozen-now.html

  11. #146
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I got my distributor out! And in one piece! I still managed to wreck my vacuum advance. Well, that was my own mistake. And the distributor went pretty ugly. I'm not sure about my distributor "frame's" durability anymore. Pipe wrench did pretty big damage on distributor and now the aluminium narrow part of it isn't as thick as it was. Maybe I need a new distributor.

    I used slotted screwdriver and tried to get that between block and distributor. I rotated my distributor and then put my screwdriver in position, and hit it with hammer several times. Then I sprayed penetrating oil into place where I had just hit with screwdirver and hammmer. I also used wedge shaped punch (?) when the hole between block and distributor was big enough.

    I think slow is the word here. I tried to move my distributor just a little bit up and again a little up.

    I also used my own made tool if distributor jammed in some point of "lifting". It was made from flat iron bar and it helped me a bit.
    My tool was shaped like this:
    --
    |
    |
    | <----
    ---

    I put the bottom part of tool (where the arrow is pointing) under the wide part of distributor and I hit the upper part with with small hammer from down.

    I may make a better scetch with MS Paint someday if I have time. My tool werent that good.

  12. #147
    cadchris's Avatar
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Dry Ice would've been the best thing to try like I posted before and was confirmed by the Engineering and Metallurgist forum to thermally contract the cast aluminum away from the iron bore after first doing a heat cycle to initially crack the corrosion and allow to cool naturally.......

    Your tool is exactly what I spoke about if you could have found or rented a "Concrete Vibrator" to place under the distributor's main body housing and attach 2 ropes to the end and pull up on it. These things put out some strong vibrations and a person could never hold a "Concrete Vibrator" by hand since it's been tried like in these videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuGU4TQULLw

    Here is an example of how strong the vibrations are:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxSjLe3tJEY

    I believe using that technique would not damage the distributor along with super cooling with dry ice to -100 F. with the use of penetrating oil.

    But, at least you got it out. I'd still go for an HEI distributor vs. a points distributor......

    Can you tell why it was frozen and at which point on the distributor so others can get an idea of what to expect?

    ----------

    By the way, I found another e-mail address for Al Betker (old owner of MTS who developed the MTS #3 Cam) and e-mailed him on June 23rd. The e-mail didn't come back, but nothing yet from him.............hopefully he'll contact me.........

    Regards,
    Chris

  13. #148
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    Your tool is exactly what I spoke about if you could have found or rented a "Concrete Vibrator" to place under the distributor's main body housing and attach 2 ropes to the end and pull up on it. These things put out some strong vibrations and a person could never hold a "Concrete Vibrator" by hand since it's been tried like in these videos:
    Those tools would have been interesting to try but I think the cost of dry ice and tools rental would have been higher than cost of new distributor. So, it woul have been wiser to wreck my old one when taking it out with basic tools than rent some special tools.

    But, at least you got it out. I'd still go for an HEI distributor vs. a points distributor......
    I choose points because part prices are expensive in here. I paid 110 euros from remanufactured one (which one is 33 euros in rockauto..). I have to order HEI distributor from rockauto when my friend (and his friends) order something from there. We can split all delivery and customs duty costs. If I order alone, my distributor could have cost more than 110 euros.

    Can you tell why it was frozen and at which point on the distributor so others can get an idea of what to expect?
    If my memory serves, it was frozen from the "collar" and from the thick part under it. I think my distributor was jammed because all that dirt which has somehow built up between block and distributor. Distributor had lost of hard carbon around it.


    Today I assembled my new distributor and got my car running (first I had small problems but after a while I realized that my distributor was 180 degrees off) I don't have any good timing light, just basic one without any adjustment. I think I'll buy an adjustable light with rpm-meter and dwell meter. Those are hard to find nowadays. There are lights only with adjustment or only with dwell meter but I haven't found any meters with everything in it.

    Maybe I'll have to start looking one from Sweden or Germany. I don't know whats the problem in Finland. We have shortage from pretty much everything what comes to old cars. For example, you can't get any old style Motorcraft plugs from anywhere (this is strange because we have lots of old fords and saabs with ford V4 engines what would use those plugs). Those must be ordered from Sweden. Some AC-Delco plugs are rare in here too. Those rare models must be ordered from Sweden too. This is strange.

    It's great that we have some small stores which can order parts straight from Sweden. No big store does that, they just say "no, we can't provide you that" and likely (if I'm buying Motorcraft plugs) they just offer me some NGK ones which just don't work....

  14. #149
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I love my Innova/Equus Digital Timing Light that has all the functions built in. Advance, Dwell, RPM. These things are made in China like everything else in the U.S., so I'd expect they are distributed in every country around the world, except Finland!!!!!!


    Just continuing your joke since your bitching about your county!

    I see these timing lights on E-bay and Amazon. Hopefully you can find one. if not, all you need is a timing light with an advance dial, and a separate meter that measures Dwell for setting up your points and a tachometer.

    http://www.equus.com/Product/5568/

    http://www.iequus.com/Product/Diagnostic/timing.html

    http://www.iequus.com/Product/Detail...0-3D36BC2E44BE

    Video comparing a few of their different timing lights:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViDA9IrkTtI

    I have the old version of the Pro 5568 which is about 15yrs old and has 5 buttons like this one on E-bay, but I think they have the wrong part# listed. I'll have to look at mine for the part number so you can search for the older discontinued model.

    These guys ship World Wide:

    61.00 Euros. Item #3568. The picture shows a light that has Dwell Function, but not the description. They must be using an old photo from the older version of the PRO Light with the red case in the 2nd link below which is the #5568
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/EQUUS-INNOVA...9428aa&vxp=mtr

    This it a good timing light with all functions:
    89.00 Euros:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/EQUUS-INNOVA...item1c32d65854



    If you can find this brand, make sure it is a 5 button that has the Dwell function for setting your points used through the green boot hookup wire lead.

    My old version had a plastic pickup that is burned up from hitting a header, but still works with some electrical tape! I'll have to order a new harness that comes with the metal pickup like the new 5568 PRO has. You might find the older model with the plastic pickup......just so you know.

  15. #150
    3dfx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 472, how to boost fuel economy?

    I love my Innova/Equus Digital Timing Light that has all the functions built in. Advance, Dwell, RPM. These things are made in China like everything else in the U.S., so I'd expect they are distributed in every country around the world, except Finland!!!!!!
    Guess what.....

    I did some investigation on timing lights avainable in Finland, and I couldn't find any reasonable timing light. No Equus lights nothing

    Same problem is with many high-quality professional hand tools. We xhave only low to medium guality tools in many stores but no high quality, for example Stahlwille, Snap-on and Mac-tools are difficult to find...

    Maybe I order one from Germany or Sweden....I just have to find a store which has them.




    But the good news, my car is running fine (I'm just having some idle problems but nothing more serious, I opened a new thread for them) and soon I get my first MPG results with new distributor.

    Now I set my points gap to 0,40mm and my timing advance to 7 degrees BTDC with no vacuum advance, engine idling about 800rpm. When I get a proper timing light I can do more adjustment in total advance etc.

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