Timing Issues?

[Sasquatch]

Hey guys been awhile but I'm back with a question. Have a 1969 Cadillac hearse with a 472. Changed out the old points dist. for an HEI from a 74 Caddy and it's been running great for 2 years. Drove about two weeks ago no problems. Went out today to start and cranks fine but won't turn over. Pulled the dist. cap and the rotor turns while cranking. Gotta wait till I can get someone to turn the key while I check for spark at the plugs. If I have spark could it be that I have jumped time? I'll have to get my shop manual out, but give me a quick how to on how to reset if I have jumped time please. Had this happen once many years ago in a Volare wagon. Shut it down and then came out of the house the next day and wouldn't start. Ended up being a timing chain. I seem to remember that the rotor would not turn. Is this correct? If the timing chain has slipped or broken the rotor should not turn? Cannot remember. Thanks for any help. I'll post more when I find out if I have spark at the plugs.

[Caddymasher]

I had the same problem recently. I didn't have anyone to check for spark either, so I laid the timing light on the fender and watched for the flash. After there was no flash, I had the HEI ignition module checked at Advance Auto Parts (it was good). I then found that the HEI module's connectors were corroded (verified with my multimeter). I soldered the connections, and it runs fine now.

Good luck with that...

Oh... one last thing... the rotor would not turn if the timing chain was off.

[Sasquatch]

Are you talking about the connectors located on the outside of the distributor? Where the "hot" wire comes in and the there is a connector beneath it that snaps on? How did you test with a multi meter? I have one just not sure how to do it.

[Sasquatch]

Ok here's where I'm at. Got the car started and ran great BUT.......................Always hate the BUT................. I have pictures. When the HEI was installed the guy who wired it installed a relay in line with the hot wire for the dist.(See pics) The red wire goes over to a fuse block mounted on the fire wall near the driver side front fender. (third picture) The black wire is the one that goes to the dist. The blue wire goes to a wire that is part of the harness and goes through the firewall. Why it is wired like this I'm not sure. I provided him with a printed copy of this link http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/hei.htm but this is how he did it. The Yellow wire was grounded to the firewall. As soon as I removed the yellow wire from the firewall the car fire over. Then when you shut the ignition off the car continues to run. Only when you unplug the relay will the car shut down. I had my wife get in the car and turn the key to the on position and I could here the relay "clicking" when I would touch the yellow wire to ground. Had her turn the motor over and it ran. Had her shut the car off but it continued to run. This time when I touched the Yellow to ground with the switch in the off position with the motor still running it killed the motor. Started again and had to unplug relay this time to get the motor to stop. I'm thinking ignition switch. Somehow the relay when grounded properly while trying to start will not allow the motor to start. It will crank and crank and crank. Disconnect that ground from the relay and she fires over but will not shut down without disconnecting the relay. I replaced the ignition switch once before and noticed some areas where it appeared to have gotten hot. This was prior to the HEI install. Perhaps another one has gone bad? Good news is the car runs fine. (No timing chain issues) Just gotta figure out this other issue. I'm thinking ignition switch. Anyone else have ideas? Should I get rid of the relay setup? With the pictures provided can someone suggest the proper way to wire if I do get rid of the relay? Thanks.

[Caddymasher]

First, I would turn the ignition off to start. You do not want to be shocked by that thing! I personally was shocked when testing a points ignition on my 64 Cadillac.

Remove the distributor cap with the connectors still attached, lay it leaning to one side so you can reached inside the cap with your meter. Flip your ignition on, set your meter to 20v, ground to the engine, and poke into each connector starting from the outside connector to the four connectors on the ignition module. You should get somewhere around 12v on the two left connectors, and just a couple volts from the two on the right of the module. If all that is good, I would get the module tested at your local auto parts store.

The ground wire usually will not be bad, however you can set your meter for continuity (the little arrow thing with the line through it) and the meter will beep when it makes a complete circuit from your wires to the ground.

One last thing, Summitracing.com has a clear distributor cap and rotor so you can see it sparking!

*Oops... I posted this while you were posting the pictures... glad you got it running!*

[Caddymasher]

He installed it that way to pull power directly from the battery with larger gauge wire, and trigger the relay from the ignition wire, right? Did he use at least 10 gauge wire to the distributor? I have had problems with those butt connectors. I prefer to solder all my wiring.

[cadillac_al]

I have never seen a distributer wired up with a relay. If it were mine, I would look for the original coil wire and see if it still has voltage. I hope it wasn't bypassed for this original creation. If you find the wire and it has 12 volts, then I would hook that to the distributer. If it doesn't have 12 volts then there is a resister in the wire that needs to be cut out and bypassed. There may be a problem with this circuit and that's why the po created this new circuit. It isn't very elegant and the relay isn't necessary but you know the old saying: "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

[Sasquatch]

Well it is "kinda" broke now seeing that it won't shut off. I'm wondering if the original dist. wire is the wire that the blue one is connected to. Over the next couple of days I will take a look at the ignition switch. It's an easy change out. It is not located where the key is inserted as a lot of people think but rather near the bottom of the steering column and is held by 2 screws and the harness plugs into it. It was originally points/condenser setup so the original dist. wire would be a resistor wire. That may be why he went this route. Normally the relay is nicely and neatly mounted to the firewall. It's not like that in the pics because I was messing with it and found it easier to get to if I removed it from the firewall. Once the problem is resolved then I'll put everything back nice and neat.

[tywone]

hello fellas
I have a 69 cadillac deville. Recently when tring to cut off the car it putters real bad, im thinking it is a timing issue but before i go and by a light gun wanted to check with the experienced first.

[guidematic]

The reason why the relay was installed was to supply a full 12V to the coil. The points type system use a resistor wire in the harness to cut voltage down to about 9.5V to prevent the coil from overheating. HEI runs on the full system voltage.

It's a make shift approach that can cause problems, as you have experienced.

You can remove the relay completly and plug the wire that comes from the firewall directly to the Batt terminal on the distributor. This wire comes from the ignition switch. It will have no ill effects on the distributor at all. I have done several HEI convesions with these cars this way, including my own, which has run flawlessly for the past 13 years.

Also, if you wish, you could run a new wire from the switch and by-pass the resistor (or even locate the resistor in the harness and remove it) and run the distributor on the full 12V. This resistor has the same purpose as the troublesome ballast resistor on your old Volare wagon, but without the trouble.

Mike

[drmenard]

Looks like Guidematic has got this one covered.. let us know how everything works out...