5.0 and 5.7 Discussion, Amsoil... in Cadillac Engine Discussion; Originally Posted by N0DIH Are they allowed to have extra ZDDP in if it is a SM spec oil? I ...
- 12-13-06 04:02 PM #46
Check the forums at www.bobistheoilguy.com.
- 12-13-06 04:38 PM #47Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
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- 12-17-06 10:30 PM #48
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- 12-20-06 12:00 PM #49Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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Actually the ILSAC GF-4 standard is what puts limits on the amount of ZDP in the oil NOT the SM standard. The SM is an API performance standard that does not limit the anti-wear capacity of the oil. The API starburst symbol (GF-4) that states "for gasoline engines" is an indicator of reduced or controlled ZDP levels and the addition of fuel economy improving friction modifiers in the oil. That has nothing to do with the SM performance spec per se.
This is then why the "diesel oils" like Rotella/Delo/Delvac can be rated SL/SM for API performance in gasoline engines and have the higher ZDP levels. They are NOT rated with the ILSAC starburst symbol "for gasoline engines" because they have the higher ZDP levels and they do not contain the friction modifiers for fuel economy. Those oils are simply "very good engine oil" that meets the latest gasoline AND diesel engine oil specifications per the API performance standards. They are marketed as "diesel" oils simply to draw the distinction from the ILSAC starburst "for gasoline engine" oils.
Any modern engine is designed to easily run with the reduced ZDP level of the ILSAC GF-4 oils. Older and specialty engines still need the additional antiwear protection that the Delvac/Delo/Rotella oils offer.
The last time I looked at Mobil Extended Performance oils they were specifically NOT rated with the ILSAC starburst for GF-4 because of the higher ZDP content and lack of friction modifiers.
There is no doubt that Amsoil has some good products but it is possible to buy similar performance oils at much lower prices with much greater availability. They overprice their product to account for their pyramid marketing scheme and try and condone it with inflated performance claims. Their products are just not necessary nor do they need to cost nearly as much as they do.
Amsoil still uses the "four ball wear test" to inflate their performance claims when that test has little or no applicability to automobile engines.....but it is something that Amsoil can market that no one else uses. No one else uses that test for a reason. It is pointless in comparing engine oil performance. In addition, Amsoil still sticks to their inflated oil change interval claims. If temperature alone were the reason for changing the oil then their synthetics (and any other synthetic like Mobil 1) would also allow dramatically extended change intervals. Since many other factors influence oil change intervals the Amsoil claims are groundless but they insist on continuing with that marketing scheme.....which is one reason none of the OEM's will deal with or recommend Amsoil. Besides, Amsoil does not even present their products for OEM testing and certification.
- 12-20-06 12:57 PM #50
I am curious of something, likely many are too.
Many people are against extended oil drains. For what reason? Mobil 1 is marketing for it now to a limited 15K with the EP oils. Amsoil has pushed 25K for years, and Mobil 1 USED to, but stopped years ago.
Now, semi's (yes I know, they have large sumps) go more than 3-7K on oil changes. Why can't a gas engine? Semi's have some nasty soot in the oil that gas engines don't. What would it take to make car have similar drains to a semi? I myself wouldn't mind going 50K on an oil change... I drive enough that it probably would pay off.
In reality, is TIME a better way to judge oil changes than miles? (Assuming no OLM!)
If we take 250 hours and go with an average of 60 mph (I know, too high, that is more for highway drivers only), that is 15K miles. So that would be more like 7500 miles for average drivers.
Looks like CAT DEO oil (single grade) is high TBN "Precombustion Fuel Injection: If fuel sulfur exceeds 0.50%, shorten the oil change interval based on S•O•S analysis results or use Cat DEO single grade oil API CF with 13.5 TBN.."
- 12-20-06 01:16 PM #51
I agree. As long as the filter is changed when it needs to be, why should the oil? If my oil still looks like maple syrup 5 or 10,000 miles after a change, it probably doesn't need to be, especially if I'm running a long-life filter.
- 12-20-06 08:52 PM #52Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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There are a number of reasons for changing the oil. Contaminants build up, oxidation takes place, the anti-wear addtive ZDP is slowly depleted, etc. It is almost impossible to define what specific reason any given engine's oil needs to be changed without knowing the exact operating schedule, ambient temperatures, run times, soak times, etc. That is why the oil life monitor was developed by GM. It keeps track of all the things that cause the oil to be degraded to the point that it needs changing.
Oil that looks perfectly fine could have lost all of it's ZDP anti-wear protection and the engine could be unprotected without replenishing the ZDP with a fresh oil change. Regardless of the filter or synthetic or whatever, if the sacrificial ZDP has been depleted the oil is junk and needs to be changed. What you would spend for testing to determine this exact point of ZDP depletion is easily offset by simply changing the oil.
Be a little wary of oil filters that advertise that they filter to too fine a particle. The smaller the pores in the filter the more restriction the filter has (no exceptions despite the marketing hype) and the less oil it will actually filter. You will always trade off percent of oil filtered for finer filtration. Since particles in the oil finer than the minimum oil film thickness do little or no harm the idea of "finer filtration" is pretty much a myth. That is why the OEM's do not put ultra fine filtration filters on the engine in the first place.
The only "common" thing people want to define oil change intervals by is mileage. Unfortunately there are dramatic differences in different engine designs that dictate different change intervals....in other words, some engines beat up the oil much worse than others and need more frequent changes regardless of the type of oil used.
An example is the older 93-99 Northstars compared to 2000 and later Northstars. The earlier engines had 32 direct acting rubbing element tappets. They need more ZDP wear protection and/or deplete the ZDP in the oil much sooner than the 2000 and later engines with roller followers at the cam lobe. Earlier 4.1 style engines with flat tappets, distributor drive gears on the cam and spur gear oil pumps will deplete the anti-wear characteristics of the oil faster yet and require even sooner changes all other things being equal. So.....to try and use "mileage" as an all encompassing means of deciding when to change the oil on any and everything is fruitless and misleading. You have to understand your specific engine requirements and driving schedule.
So much water, gasoline and combustion byproducts end up in the oil on coldstarts that repeated cold starts in the winter with only short trip use can kill the oil extremely fast. Long before the ZDP is depleted. So this could be an overriding factor of mileage regardless of the engine type.
Get the idea..??? Oil changes and the oil change intervals are very complicated and there is no simple answer despite people's attempts to create one. For a company like Amsoil to openly say their oil is good for 25,000 miles is absolute BS. It cannot be used under severe conditions for that sort of mileage but they only mention that in the fine print. The Extended Service Mobil products will last a little longer in service due to the added ZDP concentration to make up for high mileage ZDP depletion but even with those oils severe service like cold weather/short trip operation negates the extended service idea.
- 12-20-06 08:54 PM #53
Re: Amsoil...There is no doubt that Amsoil has some good products but it is possible to buy similar performance oils at much lower prices with much greater availability. They overprice their product to account for their pyramid marketing scheme and try and condone it with inflated performance claims. Their products are just not necessary nor do they need to cost nearly as much as they do.
- 12-20-06 11:04 PM #54
Knowing statistics a bit (Green Belt) and how you can use statistics to make valid projections, so personally, I have a fair amount of confidence in GM's timeline to change oil. I honestly cannot have this same confidence in Amsoil making those same statistical analysis. Maybe they did, and if they would be willing to provide that data, I would love to crunch over it. Being GM has virtually unlimited resources, I have some better trust in their conclusions. GM is TS-16949, is Amsoil? That carries weight too. Still doesn't mean they are perfect, but knowing (I worked in a TS-16949 company, I know it well....) that knows they work to a standard.
Again, I am not saying Amsoil has a bad product. I also would find it hard to believe any company would put that much on the line without making a statistical projection of the risks. Honestly, Amsoil's claim is 25K (or 35K with 0W30) OR 1 year. Few people can put >25K miles on their ride in 1 year. So in most cases the oil should get changed out much sooner. I am sure that adds to the statistic....
And we know GM is gonna buffer their #'s a certain %. Doubtful like 3x, but probably more like 10-15%. And that is using the worst oil that they could find that still meets the oil spec for the year of the car.
- 12-21-06 08:44 AM #55
Different engine from this forum, but I let the OLM on my dad's '04 N* get down to 5% and about 12,500 miles with Mobil 1 in it, got a used oil analysis from Blackstone and it was fine.
I just don't think that Amsoil is any better than Mobil 1 and costs almost double.
- 12-21-06 10:27 AM #56
I would be willing to bet the OLM is someone's Black Belt or Master Black Belt project. It sure screams of it. The statistical analysis on it would have been huge. Wish I could have worked on something like that, it would be a blast.
I sure would like to see a way to directly compare each oil and see what the differences or similarities really are. Makes one wonder if there is any REAL differences after all. I guess if you can get me 18 engines for each oil grade to test, 18 for a control group, and run them each to xx miles (on a test dyno or some GM test fixture), with oil changes at specific intervals (and extended and per mileage on the oils that recommend ext drains), and go all the way till either an oil related failure happens or tear down at a certain stop point and examine each and every engine in detail.
To me, that is the only way to know "who is best". It would be very very expensive, and time consuming. Probably costing in the $200K+ range to do it. Only someone like GM or a major car company likely would or could afford it.
- 12-21-06 02:35 PM #57
Just for reference, I've been using Amsoil in my HT 4100 for 18 months, averaging 6 month/4 thousand mile change intervals. It's been a good experience for me, and the cost is offset because of the extended drain intervals.
But I don't do anything on blind faith, and have my drain samples tested by Blackstone Labs. Since switching to Amsoil, my trace metal measurements (indicating wear) have consistently dropped. My engine is now wearing at a rate 66% slower than the universal averages. Of course your driving style, engine condition, etc may produce different results.
If you want to read the report, feel free:
- 12-24-06 09:35 AM #58Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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Thanks for cluing me in to Blackstone. I've asked for a kit.
- 12-24-06 01:11 PM #59
Re: Amsoil...Originally Posted by chevelle
From Mobil 1's website:
Mobil 1 5w30:
GM 6094M, GM 4718M (Corvette spec)
ILSAC GF-4 (API Certified - Starburst)
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5w03:
ACEA A1/A5, B1/B5
(Note - and I looked at a bottle in Walmart yesterday and it is API starburst now as well)
Addressing a few other misconceptions above.
I've read independent business analysis reports showing a MLM distribution scheme isn't more costly than a traditional distribution scheme. Though AMSOIL does use a MLM distribution method, AMSOIL pays a fixed percentage of the sale to its dealer network. This percentage (which I can't quote online) is no more than the markup required from a retail outlet such as Walmart. I looked at Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5w30 pricing at Walmart yesterday and it was $5.94 a quart. While I can't advertise AMSOIL pricing online, I will say the AMSOIL Preferred Customer Program pricing for the main SAE synthetic line rated for one year or 25,000 miles of use in normal service is under $6.50 a quart, not the "double" mentioned above. If anyone wants more info on this program, please drop me a PM. Though this price doesn't include shipping, for some whose time is limited (such as mine) the cost of the shipping more than offsets the time required to go to Walmart to buy the oil.
As for statistical analysis, AMSOIL has been using a recommended one year, 25k mile oil change interval for normal service (15k for severe) for over three decades now and has what is probably the most comprehensive corporate warranty on the market: AMSOIL Corporate Warranty
For a company as small as AMSOIL, to issue a warranty this comprehensive indicates their confidence in the product they sell.
Though many can and will argue the validity of virgin oil tests such as the 4-ball test, I've read enough used oil analysis reports such as the one linked by Noahsdad above to have confidence that AMSOIL does perform extremely well in actual performance. For another real world used oil sample, one of my customer's (2000 C5 Corvette) recently sent me this sample which included 5,000 miles of use and one full track day at Watkins Glen:
Corvette C5 Used Oil Analysis Report – AMSOIL SAE Synthetic 10w30
P.S. Please don't read into any of my comments that I'm saying Mobil 1 is a bad oil, it isn't. All I'm trying to point out is that there are better alternatives. Peace.
- 01-02-07 05:28 PM #60
My curiosity is how does a 4 ball wear test relate to an engine? For instance, if one oil has a 4 ball result of 0.4mm scar @ 60kg and another at 0.8mm scar @ 60 kg, one would assume that the wear ability is 2x as good with the 0.4mm scar oil. But we don't have 4 balls in our engine. We don't have contact like that in our engine. So how does it really relate? It seems very subjective to whoever is using the test data. So if the oil with 0.4mm scar helps keep an engine alive for 200K, then one might falsely assume that the 0.8mm would only last 100K. I don't think that is anywhere close.
Quaker State or Pennzoil seem to push that their oil is more slippery. But is it? How can we measure? And how does that have an effect on the engine as well?
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