5.0 and 5.7 Discussion, Disappointment!!!! in Cadillac Engine Discussion; ...
- 08-10-04 11:18 AM #1Cadillac Owners Member
- Join Date
- Aug 2004
I ask three fairly simple questions, questions I would expect to get good answers and I have gotten ZIP NADDA NOTHING!!!!
I guess no one here knows any thing but simple things, factory things like timing.
No mechanics are hanging around, no one with years of working on cars knowledge.
Just in case I get a second look here are my questions again:
I have just gotten my 79 Seville up and running.
Love it, working on a custom dash using Jaguar gauges and Steward Warner gauges and an old Cal Tech Mileage Computer.
I switched out the bad TH 400 and put in a TH 200R4, it was a straight bolt in and works great. I did the same with a 79 Camaro and got 19 MPG road with a carb, so hope to do as well or better with the Caddy.
But questions are: Performance, the engine seems to run out of power too soon and feels less powerful than a four barrel carb, is this right?
Well it is a Port injected MAP OLDs 350, I think rated for about 280 HP and about 300 FP of toque.
A strong very long living motor, I have owned and driven Carbed versions and felt more kick in power, so felt this lost of feeling was due to the injection system, which my friend said was set up for gas mileage and thus limited in WOT power.
I feeling is these are stronger that a Chevy 350.
Any way to get more power/zipout of it?
This is a California car so it should go closed loop, would switching the Ox sensor out with a switch make it go open loop and give more gas and thus more power?
Will this trick work on other Injected systems?
Can a large injector give more power and still give the same mileage? If so which ones?
Has anyone up graded the computer to say a late model system like a 87/93 Camaro computer and run a performance chip?
I have a RV Tuned 403 OLDs to put in, has any one ever tried one? Better power sure but what of mileage? Will need to change the injectors right?
Anywhere to get replacement washer and over flow bottles, all of the ones I find locally are all dried up and cracking apart.
One last problem, the A/C blower can hard move any air even on high, I fear the dash coil is plugged, but is there a more powerful, faster fan/fan motor that will fit so I can get more air flow?? I am in Arizona so we NEED that air flow….
And is a clogged A/C coil common? Or is it something else?? Air is blowing out the dash vents not out the floor and the inside door by the kick panel is opening, so what else can it be??
These should be simple questions for anyone whom has been a line mechanic some with a few years on the line servicing cars.
So why have I gotten no answers?? No on knows?
Blind leading the Blind here??
- 08-10-04 09:29 PM #2Cadillac Owners Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
HI Rich, Sorry you haven't gotten any answers, and I probably don't have any for you, but do have some questions. I am no mechanic, but my old man worked at a Caddy dealer for 25 years, so I grew up with '67 Eldos, Fleetwood 60's and the monster Biarattz's from the 70's sitting in our driveway wearing dealer plates.
I have always thought a 4 barrel engine will give more out of the hole than a fuelie. Fuel Injection was set up for smoothness. Even the Chevy 283 Fuelies of the 50's were really not a match for a dual 4 setup. They enjoyed a hotter cam, and other tweaks, But put the same on a 283 with twin 4 barrels, and I would bet on the carbs! Pontiac also found that out with the Tri-Power 347 kicking the snot out of the Bonneville's FI 1957 mill. REmember, Fuel Injection came about for the granola crunching enviromentalist whackos and gas mileage freaks! Gimme an 750 Double Pumper any time!!!
As far as the tranny, I loathe lockup converters! The hell with gas mileage, the TH400 is one of the most indestructible, and best shifting tranny's on the planet bar none! I have the original 400cid/400TH in my 1975 Pontiac Grand Am. Those lockup converts are just pieces of junk ready to self destruct in my book! Gimmee pure torque converter baby, no lockie up here! 2 more mpg? Who cares! I have been trying to figure out a way to junk those lockup crappers in many of my cars and shoehorn in a real tranny (400 Turbo) in cars and trucks I have owned. Isn't it so much fun when the stupid lockup solenoid doesn't unlock? And what if you want ot pull something, or live in the mountains? they are truly worthless piles!
As far as the RV 403 questions, who would know the answer to this one? The only 403's I ever saw were the ones put in Trans Am's when they should have had the Poncho 400! No match for the Pontiac mill, that's for sure! I would stay with the Olds 350 you have, put another Turbo 400 in it, put some dual pipes, and put a shift kit in the tranny! Then she oughta get down the road. Just My Opinion! But I kind of have an unorthodox view of cars and such! Some headers might also give you some grunt!
Again, I don't think anyone is ignoring you, but the questions are a bit out of the ordinary. Good Luck and let us know how you fare.
- 08-13-04 03:17 PM #3
Thanks I did not think I was so far out, specialy the A/C questions.
As for the lockup convertors you can buy pure convertors...
With the 200 r4 I get a shorter first gear and the over drive.
If you really want a 400 send me your 700R4/4L60/80-E and I will send you a 400. For a 4L80-E I will send you a rebuilt 400.
- 08-14-04 02:13 AM #4
Just cause we're a forums site doesn't mean we're gonna solve all of your problems... Anyways, you may be able to avoid emissions if you have your car registered as a classic.
- 08-14-04 12:09 PM #5
Granted, but from a couple of postings I read it seemed like there was a couple of real machinics here, so I though they would be able to answer a few of my questions.
So far only one has been answered. About the feel of Fi vers Carbs, and I do beleive he was right.
Problem is now max flow of the injecter vers how much cut off range of the computer, can the comp. shut down and control a fat injector? With a carb the secondaries can be very fat and really flow, injectors are limited by their max flow.
I am not worried about emissions, it passed with flying colors. CATS work wonders...
Oh about the 400s, the 4L80-E IS a overdrive 400, these are so strong they can tow in overdrive, and with a add on control system be put into any car, and I think there is a control that lets you change the shifts on the fly...(soft car to hard power)
- 08-14-04 12:39 PM #6
Did quite afew years builing HP engines for stock cars. The Chevy rules for many reasons , but HP is really about cylinderheads and Olds were never raceworthy. Valvetrain also not able to withstand high rpm..etc. The 'Mouse' will be remembered as a classic. Olds is fine til ya twist one up.
- 08-14-04 10:29 PM #7
Are you losing out only in top end with a powerful bottom end???? You could have real tall gearing....wht is the ratio??? But from the sounds of it you make it sound like its not the tranny........
go to rockauto.com they should have the proper overflow containers.
- 08-14-04 11:08 PM #8
Check out my home page for instructions on making a 1979 Seville perform better.
The 1979 Seville was factory rated at 170 HP and weighs 4250 pounds. The standard rear axle ratio was 2.24:1. The factory 0-60MPH times were in the mid 12 second range, which for the times were normal, but today are pathetic.
My remedy was to drop in a mildly built 455 Olds with about 400HP. I haven't been to the track to see how fast my car is, but I stayed door-to-door with a brand new Mustang SVT in an impromptu stoplight race. Any Olds V8 will drop right in. Don't listen to anyone who tells you you can't get power from an Olds V8. The 350 in your car is capable of 300 HP very easily. The 403 you have will bolt right in and give you more torque. It too could be built for 350+ HP.
-came with HUGE injectors (no need to upgrade these)
-is not programmable for more power
-has very small throttle bores (estimated at 450CFM) (max power 260HP)
keep your 350- add older early 70's cylinder heads, Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold, Higher performance cam, better rear end gears (3.23 with your overdrive would be great), add dual exhaust. This combo would be a vast improvement. You will need to run a relatively mild cam unless you either replace the low compression pistons or mill the heads to increase compression.
Use your 403 - easy swap, better torque, could be build similarly to the 350.
Get a big block Olds- easy torque (500 ft/lb), easy HP (350-450). Almost as easy to install as the 403, but the engine is 2" wider at the valve covers and about 1" taller. It shares all the lower end dimensions and frontcover accessories. Make sure your 200 tranny has had a performance rebuild for this application. (I kept my 400 tranny and added a shift kit).
The first generation Sevilles are a blast with more go-power. You will love your car once it gets more muscle.
- 08-14-04 11:11 PM #9
I forgot to mention the best source for Olds V8 engine performance.
Check out RealOldsPower.com.
- 08-15-04 10:05 AM #10
The sleep giant awakes.
This is more like it.
EastOfGreatiot, great car, I don’t think I am into such pain to do the 455 swap, but I do think I will plan on the 403. As I already have it, and it has a mild RV cam so should pop and the factory 403 was rated for 330 torque at 2000 so with the new can should be more.
I have the CA version of this car which came with 256:1 rear end but I did not get the posi, will be looking for one.
I really want to keep the FI, so has anyone considered upgrading the Computer to say the #730 models from a Camaro, which can then get performer chips?
You say the injectors are fat already, any idea how fat?? And one really up on fuel injection?
I want the best of both worlds, a hot car that can get great gas mileage when driven lightly.
I do think I am not used to the smooth and quiet ride, IT feels like it is not doing anything but when I punch it and look around EVERYONE is way behind me, so it just takes off and runs away from everything on the road, so far….
I know about HP and RPM but truely it is low RPM and torque that moves you out...Look at what GM did with the 90s 350s, low rpm torque.
Thanks for all the feed back.
- 08-15-04 04:57 PM #11
You might consider using a Megasquirt fuel injection system. For more information, do a google search.
Here are some sites:
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html This site has all the design and build information of the Megasquirt.
http://www.msefi.com/ This is a great support site for the Megasquirt computer, for installation and tuning.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirt/ This is the Yahoo Forum for the Megasquirt computer.
- 08-15-04 05:22 PM #12
I believe the injectors were rated at 48 lb/hr but had an unusual impedence and would be difficult to use with non-stock systems. The site link lists flow rates for the Bosch injectors.
I remember reading a link about modifying the system and it mentioned the Cadillac injectors as being some of the highest flow injectors on any factoy MPFI car.
You will be pleased with your 403 swap if you aren't trying to win any drag races (the competition is quite ferocious in the Motor City - big block required). My car came with a posi carrier 2.24 ratio. If you have trouble locating a 2 series posi carrier, I might consider selling mine. Your gears would bolt right up to my old carrier.
Best Of Luck.
- 08-15-04 08:02 PM #13
“I believe the injectors were rated at 48 lb/hr but had an unusual impedance and would be difficult to use with non-stock systems. The site link lists flow rates for the Bosch injectors.
I remember reading a link about modifying the system and it mentioned the Cadillac injectors as being some of the highest flow injectors on any factory MPFI car.”
I want to stay as close to stock as I can...so:
Well then if I change the computer I will need to change the Injectors.
Any idea what flow rate I will need for a 403? Funny but the stock injectors should like they might be big enough.
I bet the old computer was not able to follow the power curve as well as the newer ones, I think this was one of the first ones used. A higher flow to make up for lack of pulse duration and timing…?
Aren’t you using the possi in your car??
- 08-15-04 09:19 PM #14
I'm no fuel injection expert. I can only pass along information that I read. When I was considering FI for my 455, I contacted a company here in Michigan to get a cost estimate. They said to build a decent MPFI, they would need to modify a single plane Edelbrock Torker aftermarket manifold (I am not aware of a single plane for the small block Olds, Wieand maybe?). They said the only stock component they would re-use was my distributor with crank sensor. If you stick with a small block Olds, I would imagine you could re-use the injector rails.
Regarding posi: I purchased a used posi unit with 3.08 gears. A great off-the-line improvement. It is as high as I wanted to go without overdrive (about 3000RPM at 70MPH). To put a higher numeric ratio in my car, I needed either a different carrier (series 3 - 2.73 ratio and higher), or a ring adapter for my stock series 2 carier (2.14 - 2.56). Just recently I purchased a 2:1 speedometer drive adapter and re-designed my speedo graphics to get an accurate 130MPH speedometer.
My old posi unit would work fine for you (less than 40Kmiles on unit), but if you live out West you would probably be better off finding a unit nearby due to shipping weight/cost. My used unit cost $50 to ship from Wisconsin to Michigan!(they call them "pigs" for a reason) Series 2 posi units for 28 spline GM 10 bolt axles came in most station wagons and municipal units. They are quite easy to find since almost everyone wants higher-than-2.56 ratios. Check e-Bay too.
I'm interested in your transmision swap. Does the 200R4 have a throttle cable position sensor?
- 08-16-04 10:06 PM #15
Thanks for the feed back, I think your saying there was no factory injection manifold for your 455 as the 350 came with one from 76 to 79. And of course it will fit my 403 as well.
The tranny was simple swap a straight bolt in, all I had to do was change the front yoke from a 400 to one for a 200R4.
Yes these is a must have TV cable we hooked up to the Cruse control leg as this is where it would hook up to on the 79 Eldro with a 200 in it.
I still need to get a add on lock up kit for the converter and my speedometer is off but I plan on a different speedo (the XJ6 Gauges..)so will wait until then to correct it.
And I also have a speed sensor for the cable to replace the ISS sensor on the old speedo head.
This is my third 200R4 swap one into a chevy van, one into a 79 Camaro, which then got 19 hiway miles and was fast, and now this one, lots of zip off the line thanks to the fast first gear.