Fall Of The CTS
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2014+ Cadillac CTS General Discussion Discussion, Fall Of The CTS in Cadillac CTS Third Generation Forum - 2014+; Ok, this is not a doom and gloom thread!! As most of you know I own and LOVE my CTS. ...
  1. #1
    gmfamily is online now Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Fall Of The CTS

    Ok, this is not a doom and gloom thread!! As most of you know I own and LOVE my CTS. In fact I took a lot of heat for trading my CTS-V for my CTS V-Sport. The following thoughts are just that thoughts, a hypothesis if you will. I have had conversations with those who work inside of the industry, and most of the time enthusiast have NO idea how things run or what it takes to fix or change something. I am not suggesting I could run Caddy better or that I could have prevented what is going on now. Again, I love my CTS and I believe it is The Best Cadillac in a loooong time. I also believe if most people test drove one and then worked the numbers they would see the CTS is the best car and the best value in its segment. With all that being said: I present The Fall Of the CTS :-(


    This thread is a response to the Why don't we see more of them thread. Its no secret that Cadillac is having trouble moving the CTS and I think we all wonder why? Yes, price is part of the reason, but I think there is more and the following is the more.

    http://jalopnik.com/5982278/2014-cad...cts-this-is-it

    I remember seeing this article like it was yesterday. For years Cadillac had been on a roll and it seemed if they could do no wrong (design) wise. The new CTS was being promoted as the next big thing and the ultimate expression of Art and Science. However, there was already blood in the water. GM was continuing a trend that, in my opinion, can be a death wish for a new model. That trend, was keeping new models or parts of new models secret until the car is ready to be released. In this case the rear end was the hidden part of the new CTS. If you clicked the above link you would have seen the LEAKED photos of the rear end of the new CTS. Up until this point that rear had been hidden from the public. As you can read from the comments the overwhelming response was not good. I believe at this point the CTS was so close to production, nothing could be done. I believe if GM had shown the new CTS rear earlier they could have gotten feedback and made changes accordingly.

    So is the rather plain rear end, the culprit for the fall of the CTS? Its my least favorite part of the car, and it seems to be biggest design complaint among forum members. In a sense the writing was on the wall from the beginning. American cars are always over styled and we like that. The 5 series, E class and Audi A6 are also somewhat boring in the rear. The difference, in Europe being under the radar is hip. Some Euro cars come with a badge delete, while in America we stick badges on cars that never came with them. In my eyes the rear of the new Vett and the Escalade are over done, but watch them both sell like hot cakes. Again, in America I believe you can over style and sell, but under styling can cause a sales crash.

    All in all, these are just some of my thoughts. I believe GM should go back to showing a almost complete concept before they release the final product. It has worked in the past Dodge Viper, Dodge Challenger, 5th Gen Camaro, Raptor, CTS Coupe, etc.. All these cars were shown as concepts and received with high praise. So when they were built close to concept they sold like crazy. Some cars that were hidden till the last moment. The refreshed Charger, the new Escalade, the Camaro refresh, and of course the rear end of the new CTS. All the previously mentioned cars did have small spy shots that most people disliked. So my note to GM, show the car to the public with enough time to make changes. I believe this one mistake has lead to the fall of the best luxury sedan in years.

    p.s. please excuse the conversational writing style and the numerous spelling/grammar errors. I am writing this while answering 101 questions from my six year old.
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  3. #2
    gohawks63's Avatar
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    i think you brought up some interesting points. I have been very vocal about my disappointment and I remember getting into a "spirited" debate with an ATS forum member about my criticism. He felt I was pre-judging and not being fair. Recently I have read posts where his opinion is in line with what I said back then. My criticism was that GM was building a car to address a complaint from the Chinese market had, that the 2nd gen was a little too bold.

    Well then I hope GM is moving CTS iron in China.

    With the CTS Coupe, Cadillac did pretty much what you said. They introduced a concept and then built it later pretty close to what the concept looked like.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/news/cad...ept-auto-shows

    http://www.motortrend.com/future/con...coupe_concept/

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/14/d...s-better-than/

    These images are from 2008, about two years before Cadillac introduced the coupe in 2010 as a 2011 model. The only changes of note are to the exhaust outlet and to the front grille.





    Whether or not you are a Mustang fan or whether you like the new design (I do like it!), I like what the designers said when asked if they designed the car for the global market. The answer was that the Mustang is an American icon and there's no intention of designing it to suit the global market.

    I would argue the same applies to the Corvette.

    I agree with your statement that as Americans we tend to like the bolder designs.

    Here is a link to an article that references what I just said.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/genevamo...sign-in-europe

    The 2015 Mustang will be sold around the world, but Ford's unapologetic stance is that Mustang is and always will be American. Ford will continue to market it as an iconic part of American culture rather than seek out regional opportunities to integrate Mustang into local culture.

    "The Mustang is Mustang," said Jim Farley, Executive Vice President of Global Marketing, Sales and Service for Ford and Lincoln. "We have no interest in changing the DNA of the product because it's going global. It represents like Levi's—that idea of American freedom, of a road trip. Even people [globally] who weren't that familiar with Mustang said that Mustang's not a traditional sports car. We have no interest in trying to change people's minds about what Mustang is."


    ----------

    Reading through those articles again I came across this....

    "The CT Coupe Concept is a dramatic design statement," said Ed Welburn, VP, GM Global Design. "We did not create it as the result of sifting through reams of market data, nor is its shape trimmed to suit the input collected at a consumer clinic – it is emotion on four wheels and the very essence of what defines Cadillac today."

    The 3rd gen CTS needs more of this thinking, again from a design and styling perspective. No questioning the performance improvements.
    ArmyJoe, gmfamily and Wolfster like this.

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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    Well done gmfamily and gohawks. Some very good reading and opinions.
    gohawks63 and gmfamily like this.

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    Loveldos is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    Absolutely agree, gmfamily and gohawks! Styling is the most important element for the Cadillac brand--one known for decades of bold, brash and flashy vehicles. There should always be some distinctive color choices (beyond the standard shades), in the Cadillac palette of interior and exterior color choices, compared to the rest of the GM family, too. I also think the 50th Anniversary Edition of the Ford Mustang looks great!
    gohawks63 likes this.

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    sgr88 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    I have had a long held belief that GM, and in particular Cadillac have toned-down the look of their cars of late... in particular the ATS and CTS to make their cars appeal to the Asian market. The 2015 ATS is definitely not as aggressive looking as it's previous counterparts (the 2013 and 2014). Cadillac has made the new 2015 ATS a lot more "vanilla" looking in many people's opinions, including my own. It now looks "blah".

    It's highly suspected that GM "toned-down" the aggressive look of the ATS and CTS to make them more palatable to the Asian market.

    I'm sure there were discussions around the GM boardroom something along the lines of... "Sure, if we tone down the looks of the ATS and CTS, and make them more vanilla looking... we'll probably pi$$ off a few loyal customers, and make some other new customers look the other way because they think it's too "blah". But we should be able to pick up thousands of new customers in the Asian marketplace because of this new toned-down look. So we being a big corporation like we are... it's all about selling cars and making money. We potentially loose a few hundred customers in the North American marketplace because they won't like the new tone-down looks of the ATS and CTS, but we should be able to pick up several thousand new customers in Asia because of the toned-down look."

    Kudos to Ford for sticking to their guns and saying that the Ford Mustang is an "American" car, and we design it specifically for the North American market.
    Tedboss1 and Wolfster like this.

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    longislander is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Loveldos View Post
    Absolutely agree, gmfamily and gohawks! Styling is the most important element for the Cadillac brand--one known for decades of bold, brash and flashy vehicles. There should always be some distinctive color choices (beyond the standard shades), in the Cadillac palette of interior and exterior color choices, compared to the rest of the GM family, too. I also think the 50th Anniversary Edition of the Ford Mustang looks great!
    CTS certainly does offer some distinctive interior color choices...Kona Brown, Morello Red, and my personal favorite and choice, Twilight Blue.

  8. #7
    sgr88 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    Interesting news article today... confirms some auto manufacturers... including GM/Cadillac imaging their models for the Asian market.

    "China-focused models unveiled at Beijing auto show. Automakers are looking to China's biggest auto show this year to help boost sales in this huge but cooling market... a trend led by brands including GM's Cadillac unit that include features intended to appeal to Chinese tastes in models sold globally."

  9. #8
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    GM gotta do something help pay off China. (that was just a stab at our debt holders). They can't sell their cars because of their useless commercials. "drive to the moon...", "Built in a garage...", "others drive vanilla cars..." and the latest one that says something like "test one" (something silly like that). All other car makers tell us SOMETHING about their cars performance, safety or features wise. IMO!
    Tedboss1 likes this.

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    TulsaVic is online now Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    Re: Styling
    GM needs to keep their front end guys and can their back end guys. Something went astray around 2006 when Cadillac came out with their venetian blind grills for the CTS and STS. That we pretty much resolved in 2008. The CTS grill was aggressive and very Cadillac. Same with the 2008 STS. But the back end of both cars were on the blah side. Enter the XTS. That's a pretty messed up design in my opinion. Looks high and narrow which is NOT typical of Cadillac. But if there is a decent feature, it's the front end. Now we have the new CTS. Aggressive front end and very Cadillac. Back end blah.... Great styling would overcome my sticker shock. Alas, no great styling....
    Tedboss1 likes this.

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    ArmyJoe is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    Quote Originally Posted by gohawks63 View Post
    i think you brought up some interesting points. I have been very vocal about my disappointment and I remember getting into a "spirited" debate with an ATS forum member about my criticism. He felt I was pre-judging and not being fair. Recently I have read posts where his opinion is in line with what I said back then. My criticism was that GM was building a car to address a complaint from the Chinese market had, that the 2nd gen was a little too bold.

    Well then I hope GM is moving CTS iron in China.

    With the CTS Coupe, Cadillac did pretty much what you said. They introduced a concept and then built it later pretty close to what the concept looked like.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/news/cad...ept-auto-shows

    http://www.motortrend.com/future/con...coupe_concept/

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/14/d...s-better-than/

    These images are from 2008, about two years before Cadillac introduced the coupe in 2010 as a 2011 model. The only changes of note are to the exhaust outlet and to the front grille.





    Whether or not you are a Mustang fan or whether you like the new design (I do like it!), I like what the designers said when asked if they designed the car for the global market. The answer was that the Mustang is an American icon and there's no intention of designing it to suit the global market.

    I would argue the same applies to the Corvette.

    I agree with your statement that as Americans we tend to like the bolder designs.

    Here is a link to an article that references what I just said.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/genevamo...sign-in-europe

    The 2015 Mustang will be sold around the world, but Ford's unapologetic stance is that Mustang is and always will be American. Ford will continue to market it as an iconic part of American culture rather than seek out regional opportunities to integrate Mustang into local culture.

    "The Mustang is Mustang," said Jim Farley, Executive Vice President of Global Marketing, Sales and Service for Ford and Lincoln. "We have no interest in changing the DNA of the product because it's going global. It represents like Levi's—that idea of American freedom, of a road trip. Even people [globally] who weren't that familiar with Mustang said that Mustang's not a traditional sports car. We have no interest in trying to change people's minds about what Mustang is."


    ----------

    Reading through those articles again I came across this....

    "The CT Coupe Concept is a dramatic design statement," said Ed Welburn, VP, GM Global Design. "We did not create it as the result of sifting through reams of market data, nor is its shape trimmed to suit the input collected at a consumer clinic – it is emotion on four wheels and the very essence of what defines Cadillac today."

    The 3rd gen CTS needs more of this thinking, again from a design and styling perspective. No questioning the performance improvements
    .
    Great comments! The CTS front end is great but the rear end is a drag. Its like Cadillac forgot everything they learned from the success of the CTS coupe. The price increase and the over-charge for the 3.6 L engine doesn't help either. Even the new ATS coupe is a style disappointment compared to the CTS coupe.
    Tedboss1 likes this.

  12. #11
    b4z
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    It's price and the caddy completely missed the mark on rear seat space compared to the 5,a6 and e. the rearend it is not great but it is not horrible.

  13. #12
    Dicecal is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyJoe View Post
    Great comments! The CTS front end is great but the rear end is a drag. Its like Cadillac forgot everything they learned from the success of the CTS coupe. The price increase and the over-charge for the 3.6 L engine doesn't help either. Even the new ATS coupe is a style disappointment compared to the CTS coupe.
    I agree, I like the car until I get to the back of the rear doors and tail....it's just blahhh

  14. #13
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    C&C
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    Stumble more than a fall IMO; I believe Cadillac could have had better success (in conquest sales) had they restrained their aggressive price policy. Rear room seems competitive but not class leading (by any stretch).

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by C&C
    Stumble more than a fall IMO; I believe Cadillac could have had better success (in conquest sales) had they restrained their aggressive price policy. Rear room seems competitive but not class leading (by any stretch).
    Agree. It's not offensive. It's just not WOW and if they wanted the price they're asking for they needed WOW.

    if they kept the prices lower the car would have done better because mechanically it is a big improvement.

  16. #15
    ddawson is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Fall Of The CTS

    I love my 2014 CTS Premium. It is the best looking, of any 2014 automobile that I've seen.

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