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Anyone with similar mods? trying to get a HP range where I should be?

12K views 77 replies 20 participants last post by  Stillborn 
#1 ·
I have a 2009 CTS V SEDAN AUTO. Previous Dyno was with a air raid CAI and conservative tune. I was at 475 RWHP on a mustang dyno. I ran an 11.7 on stock tires at 119.8 MPH with just a tune and air raid, so it's seems to be a strong car. My current set up is the following...

New era. CAI
Green long filter
Brake duct mod-Ram air directly into the air filter
Brand new stock blower, new everything, snout.
v hat, blower, etc...courtesy of the dealer to get rid of marbles.
LPE solid isolater
Kooks coated headers
Full kooks mid pipes with high performance cats
SLP loud mouth mufflers
2.35 upper pulley-13-14lbs of boost IM GUESSING.
Weapon X track attack HX
Dual catch cans
93 octane fuel

GOING IN FOR A FULL DYNO TUNE ON A DYNO JET MONDAY. What do you guys think the RWHP will be when my tune is complete? I'm looking for a range so I have something to just give me an idea.. Also, any chance with the new set up I could break into the 10.99 at the track. I was doing 11.77 to 11.91 all day last trip to the track on stock tires.
 
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#2 ·
My guess 566.
 
#4 ·
that is no way near accurate.
 
#6 ·
The stock injectors are EXACTLY THE SAME ONES ON THE ZR1 corvette. But I guess they don't make 638hp.... lol
 
#9 ·
Injector size is changed by fuel pressure on our engine setup in THIS car.
It lowers the Actual injector flow rate at low hp and at idle by modifying the pulse width of the fuel pumps to make it a lower desired fuel pressure, in most cases 30psi, down from the 65-72 it does at full throttle.

this way the injector always stays in its sweet spot where it has a lot of resolution and control/accuracy.

Changing to a smaller injector would be a waste of money.
 
#11 ·
Instead of saying I'm wrong, call the dealer, ask them the part numbers for both injectors, then come back to this post and apologize...

If you are at 90% injector, your "tuner" didn't set up to request more fuel.. People have been making 600 rwhp with stock injectors since the cars have come out in 2008. My red one was on the Dyno the second day I had gotten it making 600 rwhp.. On stock injectors. The "fuel injector" issue is just a sales thing for some one to be selling expensive injectors to people that don't know better... 600 hp and higher is when you will run out of injector.. Do some reading...
 
#12 ·
thanks Jessie..

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i think you're blowing smoke. the zr1 is 630 hp and or 530rwhp.(same as my car and i'm at 90%) with added boost, headers, & intake he's gonna be over 95% on those injectors. i dont give a crap, it's not my car but it's silly to play around in the most important aspect of tuning IE: fueling. mike maz, who's doing your tune?
my tune is being done by Alternative Performance. Been tuning for over 25 years.

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i think you're blowing smoke. the zr1 is 630 hp and or 530rwhp.(same as my car and i'm at 90%) with added boost, headers, & intake he's gonna be over 95% on those injectors. i dont give a crap, it's not my car but it's silly to play around in the most important aspect of tuning IE: fueling. mike maz, who's doing your tune?
I'm confused, are you 530 HP or 634?
 
#13 ·
According to his mod list in the header, he has a 2.55 pulley, which would be 530-550hp. NOT 634, he is probably posting his at engine numbers which are still a bit high. Even though recaros probably add at least 50 butt dyno hp...
 
#15 ·
i dont have headers, just a 2.5 and cai. i listed hp as all manufactures do. do your own math to determine rwhp/tq. i never said the 52lb injectors werent on both cars. all i said was good luck with your tune. ;) and your smart ass know it all replies are why you will never get my business you knuckle dragging hillbilly.
 
#16 ·
You are being silly.

Read your posts, the first one in post 3 said that the stock injectors where not going to work. Yet, as I posted, the same ones are used in the ZR1 making that same horsepower...

Secondly, you said I was "blowing smoke" which again a quick call to your local dealer will prove that I was correct.

Third, When I said "that is no where near accurate" I was saying that the limit for the stock injectors has been PROVEN to be way over 550 and still supply fuel and be controllable, well within range of control. 600hp is the limit for safety on them.

Injector duty cycle will change depending on what the actual fuel ratio is as well, a car that someone tunes to be 11.7 air fuel "which is still safe" will have a lower duty cycle that being tuned to 10.8.. So, if the fuel is in the right spot, and you have the fuel pressure correct and stabilized, then you are good.

Not all tuners mess with the right stuff to allow for more fuel pressure and voltages..

So, Instead of being a negative person, and making yourself look childish, lets just all be adults and be more accurate with your information...

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One more thing to add, if you re read my last post, I said this "According to his mod list in the header, he has a 2.55 pulley, "

It said you had a 2.55 pulley. I did not say you had headers.
 
#17 ·
stop back peddling. you go run some poor fools afr at 11.9/12.3 (depending on weather and a possible bad batch of gas) and hope they dont fry a ringland. my a/f is set at 11.4 at the time of tune, once winter came it went up to 11.8.(and an additional lb of boost) that is enough reason to go with larger injectors if i had more mods. I'll trust what guys (like g-force) are doing instead of a guy who just wants to be right all the time. you drew first blood, not me.

mike maz has headers and a smaller pulley.(2.3) he will need injectors. mark my words.
 
#18 ·
stop back peddling. you go run some poor fools afr at 11.9/12.3 (depending on weather) and hope they dont fry a ringland. my a/f is set at 11.4 at the time of tune, once winter came it went up to 11.8. that is enough reason to go with larger injectors if i had more mods. I'll trust what guys (like g-force) are doing instead of a guy who just wants to be right all the time. you drew first blood, not me.

mike maz has headers and a smaller pulley.(2.3) he will need injectors. mark my words.
Again, you are adding more words that im not saying. Where in the posts have I put or even said those air fuel ratios. 11.9 is not going to kill a supercharged engine sorry to say, even though I never said that value..
The reason why YOURS might have went to a different air fuel ratio was from a setting in the tune based on iat or on coolant temp. Sounds like YOUR tuner just didn't compensate for that. :(

How many cars have you built? How many cars have you tuned?
 
#19 ·
this is my 28th car... 2/3rd of which were modified. this isn't my first rodeo. i said all i have to say on this as i dont have a dog in the fight. mike maz i hope you are happy with the tune and your new mods. you'll be very happy when it's all squared away. keep us posted on what's what. :)
 
#20 ·
I read farther into your last post, and it isn't the fuel injector size that is manipulating your actual air fuel ratio sorry to say from summer to winter....

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Also one more thing. Your saying about me back peddling, how the heck is that if i'm telling others to go somewhere local. LOL Not sure what your problem is. All I was doing here is posting FACTUAL data. Not hearsay and you get all pissed about it..
 
#21 · (Edited)
I read farther into your last post, and it isn't the fuel injector size that is manipulating your actual air fuel ratio sorry to say from summer to winter....
you're exactly right, but as i stated if he's maxed out at 95% at 11.7ish and gets a bad batch of fuel and denser air from colder temps,...i think you know whats going to possibly happen. i would never be happy with any afr that high on a daily driver. 11.2-11.4 is as high as I'd personally take it. if you want an additional track tune per sct and adding torco blend then thats another ballgame. but for a set dd tune, 11.7 or above is just plain dumb. we aren't even talking timing here either, but again 17* is max for a dd in my book. you can do what you want. I'll keep my investment safe.

bottom line, why make excuses for afr and injector size safety, if you cant safely reach a target afr via stock injectors than it's time to get larger injectors.
end of story.

so the story goes, can you? i guess you can. would i? absolutly not.
 
#24 ·
Stillborn, I hate to say this but you really should not be putting words in Gforce Mouth. How do you know what he would say? If my tuner says I will need injectors based on the numbers he sees, i will by all means add injectors to the list. There are 3 local tuners here in Michigan, 1 being Livernois Motorsports. Very big company. All three tuning shops told me I should not need injectors, as well as Jessie, who I never met personally but has never steered my wrong and seems like a great guy. I have also been told by several others that my injectors, the same as the ZR1 can be adjusted to be safe with my mods. on another note, I have also seen some tuners that have said. "You Must have bigger injectors" my personal feeling it they dont have the experience and dont know how to set up the current injectors so they just have the customer buy larger ones because thier lack of knowledge. Anyways, I just though I would drop in and mention that it is not cool to put words into another vendors mouth. (G-Force). As far as HP numbers, I have not seen anyone on any forum list thier Engine HP numbers. Thats what confussed me. All I ever see on the forums and I belong to several is the actual measured HP numbers from a dyno, not a mathmatical number that people have to trig out just to see what you real HP numbers are. one last thing, My tuner has 25 years experience tuning cars and if Jessie was closer to me, he would be my number 1 choice. I dont think you can deny his expertise. Last point I want to make, we are all adults here, it would be nice if you can keep the name calling to yourself, there is no reason for that, Jessie nor myself called you any names, he simply stated facts based on his experience with tuning probably over 1000 CTS V's. if not more. Just talk to what YOU know from experience, not what you think "GForce" may or may not say. No hard feelings man, just chill out.
 
#26 · (Edited)
go to the "other forum" (see tee s vee owners) and you'll find out from the horses mouth (g-force). just search "injector size" threads. i hope we're done here.



"Added a 2.50" Metco Upper Pulley to the headers/CAI combo. The injectors maxed out at 125% DC on the first run at 537 rwhp (DynoJet). The car had another 20 rwhp in it easily. Tuner had to back it off a little bit so the car can remain drivable until I get ID850's. More videos to come when that happens! Tuned by RPM Motorsports in Garner, NC.

Car has Stainless Works Headers w/Cat-less down pipe, SW X-Pipe, Stock Axle Back exhaust, New Era Performance CAI, Metco 2.50" Upper Pulley, LPE Solid Isolator, Metco 100mm Idler Pulley, 160 T-Stat"


make sure you come tell me how your stock injectors do on monday mike maz. hope you got the added 800+ for those bad boys. lol

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you will need new injectors, Ya JACKA**! LOL

 
#28 ·
Talk to my tuner today. He said do NOT buy injectors. He said it the worst thing you can do is buy injectors when you don't need them. He said many variables can be modified first before you go out and buy injectors. So again, I will wait till Monday and if I need injectors I will have them shipped next day air. No problem.
 
#29 ·
Well. Sorry to say but I have seen a few tunes made by rpm because the people are having shut down issues and transmissions errors, and the tunes have not been modified to allow for more fuel pressure. So theproblem as I stated, it is a tune error if they can't make it work. Simple as that.

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He is changing some tables in that fuel segment, but they are for the wrong thing that isn't even being used, so it makes no change to the calibration,

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Lol. 33 shops so far can make them work since 2008 so far and more counting as I'm going thru posts... 4 can't... Hmmm
 
#30 ·
Man this really has me thinking. I have been scared into injectors on my LPE 630 kit as so many ppl said I would be in the "danger zone" on a cool day or may be close even on the dyno. LPE says I could be close but still be in spot that is not above 90%. This thread has taught me alot on how the fuel system works on the V. So Jessie what is the average stage one car automatic say 540 RWHP at on stock injector? 85% with tune for fuel pressure changed?
 
#31 ·
Low 80s

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You can do the math to get Real injector duty cycle. Maybe the software they are using is reporting it incorrectly.
 
#33 ·
Thread jack....Jessie what are the torque specs on the strut tower brace on a 2013?

On a side note.....I am kinda in the middle. I installed the LPE 650 kit with ported TB and Blower snout, plugs, wires, SW headers into SW exhaust, D3 CAI and tune. The car put down 607 RWHP and 597 ft.lbs torque on a dyno com.

Anyway, we installed the Bosch 028015187 56 lbs injector or whatever it is and my tuner stated that my duty cycle was above 95% and that I may want to look at a larger injectors. Me being me and not wanting to risk anything I went and bought ID850's and am now around 65% duty cycle. Did I have to have ID850s...no. Do I feel good about it....yes. He had nothing in the injector sale and wanted me to buy fast 85. Plenty of room for growth!!!!

I found the best tuner (IMHO) around me...one that I felt comfortable with and went with it. If I were to take my car to another tuner they would do it differently then he did and different from anyone else.

If I were by Jessie that's where it would have went or perhaps out in CA to D3...hell I even thought about going to Hennessy down in TX but damn I'd have 100k in this thing had I gone that route

My point being everyone tunes differently!!!

Torque specs on strut tower anyone???
 
#35 ·
mike_maz said:
Stillborn, I "marked your words" and you were correct. I'm am sorry if I doubted you. I DO NEED INJECTORS. My car ran out of injector at 565 on the DYNO. 85 pounders are being next day shipped to my tuner. He could not finish the tune. I'm a big enough man to own up when I'm wrong and I was wrong. Look like car will make 580 to 590 when he can finish the tune with injectors Friday.
580 to 590 are some sweet numbers.....congratulations on your build!!!!
 
#36 ·
Have your tuner email me, and I can give him the instructions on how to add more pressure to your tune. It isn't hard...
 
#38 ·
When you up fuel pressure via voltage and or PWM, the flow capability "which is HP limit" of the injectors are increased.


The fuel pump Volume "the amount of fuel it can possibly flow" is not a problem at this horsepower level either, and changing injectors does not effect this limit either.


The Fuel pump driver can also learn and does learn.

It has a duty cycle and a "TRIM LEARN" system just like the fuel system on our cars have.

So, when tuning, it is a must to log this information. Which most people do not do.


An example of what happens, and why tuning changes sometimes for customers that are tuned at shops.

Say the tuner has the car on the dyno, and does a change to something fuel related or adds a part that adds horsepower.

The cars Fuel pump driver had previously stored a value in its trim settings that at full throttle, it needed 72% duty cycle on the pumps to maintain 65psi that was requested during the whole run from 2000-6000rpm. As the car had been driven, it has learned that it needs to do that to maintain that pressure as commanded vs actual.

So, fast forward to you adding hard parts, which lets just say 80rwhp.

Well now, the fuel volume needed to maintain the 65 psi has changed drastically, so the fpdm has to relearn what it needs to do via pwm to achieve a steady fuel flow at that psi for the new mods.

What most people will do though, is they will tune the file based on what they see before the trims have been reset or relearn. "You can do this with a tech 2"

So for example, customers car did a pull, it was 11.1 air fuel, the fuel pressure commanded was 65, actual was 57. Duty cycle on the fuel pump driver was about 75% because it didn't still yet register that it needed to change the trim values. So you get done tuning, you had the fuel set at 11.4 air fuel. Well now, you let the car out of the shop and customer drives home. As the customer continues to drive, the fuel pump driver module is still learning and has now moved the trims to make it close to actual commanded again. Which in this case was 65. So, now real duty cycle of the pump is 88% to achieve that pressure. However now the customer car is richer than it was when it left, "or leaner depending on what way the trims went" after it has learnt what it needed to do to be back to commanded vs actual.

The same system is in your transmission, also in your engine for fuel trims, It is just a learning thing that makes things closer to actual values that are being commanded.

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So, I guess it is going to rest at this.

Tuner error is the cause for not being able to supply enough fuel..

Some tuners can make stock injectors work just fine for 600 and less hp.
Some cant. I can live with that...
 
#39 · (Edited)
it's nice to watch mickey mouse squirm with his other worldly mindset. in reality you can NOT make smaller injectors flow more fuel no matter how much pressure you add. what a bozo. if that was the case they would make universal injectors adjusted with line pressure. but they dont, they come in flow sized increments. mickey mouse eat crow you "know-it all" cliff clavin.

i just went back to pg1 and how glorious it feels to be right. this thread should should have a trophy next to it instead of stars. lmao.

mike glad to see you are making good power, no need to feel any which way about this thread as you were in the learning curve,...
mickey mouse should have know better but his ego runs his mouth. ego is the cock blocker of all wisdom.
 
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