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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important! in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Hello, The question is how much boost you are planning on running. We typically recommend injectors at 13+ psi as ...
  1. #91
    Dr. Design is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Hello,
    The question is how much boost you are planning on running. We typically recommend injectors at 13+ psi as you start to run out of injector. Just make sure you are keeping an eye on the duty cycle of the injectors. We dont like to see over 85% duty cycle.

    Thanks,

    Dr. Design
    D3 Cadillac

    Quote Originally Posted by NiNoDuKEz View Post
    Excuse me ignorance, but there is just too much to read through!
    if i was going to go some simply pulley/airbox/tune type mods, would injectors be required? or any other means? this is an A6 car.

  2. #92
    Luna. is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Umrswimr View Post
    I'm curious- how does one (who lacks any real knowledge of tuning) determine if a tuner is a "hack" or "legit"? What questions should we be asking?
    The primary reason I have not made any modifications to my car is that I still see serious discrepencies with modified "claims". CAI is worthless/header are worthless/watch out for hacked tunes, etc. It's not as if S/C LSx's are new, so why all the confusion?
    I believe this to be an extraordinarily good question and where some advice should come.

    I've worked with various tuners for over 6 years and the best advice I can offer is simply reputation, but that's NOT necessarily fair at all.

    I don't know the answer; hopefully someone who's more knowledgeable will chime in with some sage advice.

  3. #93
    cbloveday's Avatar
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I think Luna hit the nail on the head. Reputation. I went with Jesse because he has a good reputation and is local to me. So far I have not been disappointed.

    So...............I stick with him and refer him.

  4. #94
    DrumStix is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    Curious, what's your Actual (Uncorrected) power numbers, and what elevation? Also, have you datalogged your fuel pressures and injector duty cycle? And if so, have you done such lately (with the greater airmass everyone is experience for winter)? I'd be interested in your particular car's logs, please. Thanks a lot!
    Why do you want uncorrected numbers? Shall we reverese engineer?
    Yes, I logged a high percentage of my runs. I'm at about 250' elevation. I have not logged in the cold air yet since I have not been on the dyno in a couple months. I will be again probably after the holidays.

  5. #95
    DrumStix is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I checked the fuel line size today while the car was on the lift. They are .31" outside diameter so they are 1/4" lines X2. 1/2" of fuel line! Also, There are bends in the lines but no real kinks that I could find. The system looks pretty efficient while maintaining clearance from hazards.

  6. #96
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I've been told, My fuel system is good up to 850 rwhp. WOOT WOOT

  7. #97
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    Why do you want uncorrected numbers? Shall we reverese engineer?
    Yes, I logged a high percentage of my runs. I'm at about 250' elevation. I have not logged in the cold air yet since I have not been on the dyno in a couple months. I will be again probably after the holidays.
    Reverse engineer? I want Actual (Uncorrected) numbers, as those are what you must go by to determine actual component limitation, whether it is MAF, fuel injectors and pumps, rod/piston/crank, etc, etc. Correction is utitilized to be able to give comparisons at all conditions. i.e. If you took your car to Denver it'll still dyno the same in SAE, but there's going to be around an 18 to 22% loss going from SAE to Actual, therefore you'll have a TON more headroom compared to being near sea level. Also, if you redynoed now in winter with the same mods you had during say summer dynos, your SAE will again stay the same, but your Actual obviously shoots up higher, often up 5 to 10% (or more), due to the DA increase, thus using more capacity, if available from the various components. I'm pretty sure you know all this, so need for me to preach, but rather you were confused as to what I why I was asking for your Actual #s.

    If others are confused, see my post explaining this to a shop/tuner who was clueless (not being crude). He doesn't use a weather station on his dyno = WOW!

    http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...03#post1635303

    Very Sincerely,

    James

  8. #98
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I just got done talking with Dustin on the phone, and here's an email he sent to me earlier today.

    James,

    Things are good, staying busy. We're feeding boosted power to the FPCM. We’ve run it up to 20 volts, and we’ve made 650rwhp with no real drop at 19 volts.

    By the way, there is no real spike in the amp load since the MSD turns on progressively. We ramp up to 16.5 volts for stock SC kits, at around 5psi of boost, so it’s a slow ramp from 14 to 16.5. Hobb switch styles instantly turn on, and charge the system, as they're basically just amplifiers.

    We’ve had 0 failures!

    Thanks,
    Dustin
    When he states Hobb switch styles, he's referring to a design like the KB BAP. Also, the Whipple kit has a harness that plugs into the FPCM fuse panel and replaces the stock 20 amp fuse, so it goes BEFORE the FPCM. As you can see, they have ran it up to 20v into the Camaro FPCM without any issues of it overheating. I also do not see any reason why the CTS-V2 and ZR1 FPCMs can't either, but that deserves more attention and discussion before I blindly state otherwise. On the CTS-V2, Jesse states the limit being 14.3v max without overheating the FPCM. Potentially this is the limit of the factory FPCM attempting to drive twin pumps (the Camaro only has 1), and is understandable, as this has occured in the Ford world with the '03-'04 Cobras attempting to upgrade from their factory pumps to GT40 supercar pumps, all while still using the factory FPDM (either an upgraded FPDM is used from mjchip, or dual FPDMs are used, just like on the GT40 from the factory). Jesse, do you have any additional information you'd like to share with the community here in regards to LPE's voltage findings you speak of (they are claiming on their site that the max is 14.8v, due to the current draw)?

    All in all, if the MSD Pump Booster can be used on the CTS-V2 and ZR1, just how it can be on the Camaro (pre-FPCM), then this would be a very inexpensive method of increasing the maximum range of the factory pumps (for those needing such), while allowing the FPCM full control still over the voltage input to the pumps (just like on a Ford with their FPCM arrangement), and allowing for proper fuel pump voltage delivery, thus pressure control. It still doesn't solve the factory injector limitation of the CTS-V2's max 4.5 bar (65.x psi) fuel pressure. However, as we've already discussed, replacing the factory 4.5 bar relief valve off of the pump assembly to one from say a ZR1 (6-bar, 87.x psi), or with the solid plug that ADM supplies, would allow an additional factory injector headroom of 100+ rwhp Actual. So two simple updates would pretty much solve 99% of those wanting to make power up to 700 Actual (Uncorrected).

    Regards,

    James

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    Mike TexaSS is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    James (RWTD) nice to see ya working on more late model GM Stuff! THis is Mike from G-Force!

    On my personal 09 A6 V i just completed a round of mods that netted me 588 rwhp corrected and 604 rwhp uncorrected (actual rwhp)

    Mods were 9.55 lower and ls9 cam. Boost was 14 psi. I too noticed the drop to around 51 psi. But the pressure holds at 51 psi. I used Shorty siemans 63lb injectors (with the correct injector data) and set commanded wot fuel to 11.4 and tuned the MAF to get there. 50psi and a 63lb injector is safe enough for me!

    Ive been beating the crap out of my V with no issues.

    Heres a vid.


  10. #100
    Domsz06 is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Was wondering if you would chime in Mike.

    Heard you met our Mom yesterday.....

    LOL

  11. #101
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    James the kennebell boost a pump cant be turned all the way up in our cars, We install them PRE fpdm like you say, but you can only turn the dial to 2-3 on the selector. If you go higher it WILL reset the car when you enter 4psi and higher. It happens on EVERY ctsv. The kennebell boost a pumps are only good for 40 amps as are most others. The Current draw of the pumps is much larger than that 60+ while going to full pulse width.

    Without programming the fpdm.


    Having a ramp in controller might help, but when i contacted the bap people at the time of testing all this, none seemed interested in supporting the 09 up V...

  12. #102
    DrumStix is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    Reverse engineer? I want Actual (Uncorrected) numbers, as those are what you must go by to determine actual component limitation, whether it is MAF, fuel injectors and pumps, rod/piston/crank, etc, etc. Correction is utitilized to be able to give comparisons at all conditions. i.e. If you took your car to Denver it'll still dyno the same in SAE, but there's going to be around an 18 to 22% loss going from SAE to Actual, therefore you'll have a TON more headroom compared to being near sea level. Also, if you redynoed now in winter with the same mods you had during say summer dynos, your SAE will again stay the same, but your Actual obviously shoots up higher, often up 5 to 10% (or more), due to the DA increase, thus using more capacity, if available from the various components. I'm pretty sure you know all this, so need for me to preach, but rather you were confused as to what I why I was asking for your Actual #s.

    If others are confused, see my post explaining this to a shop/tuner who was clueless (not being crude). He doesn't use a weather station on his dyno = WOW!

    http://www.modularfords.com/forums/s...03#post1635303

    Very Sincerely,

    James
    I just want you to explain your open ended question.

    And so not to confuse some here, the MAF calibration, IAT sensor, MAP, O2's and all other important sensors work in concert through the ECU/tune to compensate for weather and altitude changes. Hence the MAF! (and not speed density or carburetion.) Set it and forget it.

  13. #103
    DrumStix is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike TexaSS View Post
    Jset commanded wot fuel to 11.4 and tuned the MAF to get there.
    Ive been beating the crap out of my V with no issues.
    Set values at 1.289 (adjust for ethanol content by ensuring the values in the stoich AFR table are accurate so they can compensation for % alcohol) and tune MAF Hz.

  14. #104
    RWTD's Avatar
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    I checked the fuel line size today while the car was on the lift. They are .31" outside diameter so they are 1/4" lines X2. 1/2" of fuel line! Also, There are bends in the lines but no real kinks that I could find. The system looks pretty efficient while maintaining clearance from hazards.
    Thank you for taking the time and helping the community with this - that's greatly appreciated! It's also great to see that the factory lines are plenty sufficient for all but the most extreme setups.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    I just want you to explain your open ended question.
    I didn't know that I had an open-ended question, brotherman? Basically, I was asking for was what your power #s were in Actual, and what your injector duty cycle was showing. I don't need your logs, but I figured it would be a good "treat" for the community here to have various comparisons of individual cars. Often, on the various forums I frequent, I have put up tons of logs, for countless amounts of various vehicles I have tuned over the years, of the power breakdown in small rpm increments, along with the datalogs, while explaning the findings, so everyone can study and develop an understanding of what all these various vehicles are capable of, and to help steer them in the proper direction for current and future modifications. I plan on that here, too. The more we have contribute, the closer, stronger, and more knowledgeable this community becomes.

    I have a close friend, that is an Admin/Mod on ModularFords, named black2003cobra (Eric), that I will see about getting to contribue here (as he's able), so to help contribue an additional style of tech. He's an engineer by trade, and a pure genius when it comes to calculations for vehicles. He can take the datalogs, backcalculate them, throw in formulas out of his head (very complex ones that I often have to research from my college days, lol), and present an amazing scientific explanation. I've made a new thread located below with examples of his work:

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...2003cobra.html

    And so not to confuse some here, the MAF calibration, IAT sensor, MAP, O2's and all other important sensors work in concert through the ECU/tune to compensate for weather and altitude changes. Hence the MAF! (and not speed density or carburetion.) Set it and forget it.
    What you stated is pretty much right on! However, to go a bit more indepth GM actually uses a hybrid MAF/SD base measurement (many of the Oz cars are only SD, however). On the CTS-V2 calibration, like most all other GM Gen3/4 OSs, the system goes to a pure MAF measurement (mostly) above 4000 rpms (the VE system is used in transitional phases at this point). The difference, as you know, but others might not know, is that GM went to more complex predictive filter algorithm that combines the MAF, VE, MAP and TPS transient information. In a nutshell, it's all divided up into many zones, with a coefficient for each zone to form an equation for the system to calculate the VE value (versus a lookup within a traditional table, like the Gen3 processors, and early Gen4 systems). This is very similar to Ford's system in the PowerPC vehicles (most all 2004+ Ford vehicles, including 2005+ Mustangs. Here's a few good reads for those who want to understand the VE system on both the Gen3 and Gen4 pcms:

    Gen3: http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2359
    Gen4: http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8490

    Also, either system can be simply set to pure MAF mode only, as well, and many tuners have resorted to this method in the past few years. Those of us who tune this new VE system generally use "EQ <> VE" software, which can be found here (latest version is 3.5):

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20539

    Some know this, and some don't, but EFIL has these calculations built in for you. It is rumored that HPT will have this in their upcoming 2.24 release (or eventually).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike TexaSS View Post
    James (RWTD) nice to see ya working on more late model GM Stuff! THis is Mike from G-Force!

    On my personal 09 A6 V i just completed a round of mods that netted me 588 rwhp corrected and 604 rwhp uncorrected (actual rwhp)
    Mike! Wassup brotherman? I was trying to call you a few weeks ago, but I didn't have your # with me (left my cellie at da house). I'll catchup with you soon. BTW, BRUTAL #s on your car! AWESOME!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    (adjust for ethanol content by ensuring the values in the stoich AFR table are accurate so they can compensation for % alcohol)
    I'm glad you brought this up, so others can take note! Too many are NOT doing this, and relying solely on the Adaptive system to do this job. Yes, allowing the Adaptive system to do this job will work, but it's not the best method.


    Everyone, I hope this all helps!

    James

  15. #105
    DrumStix is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post


    What you stated is pretty much right on!

    James

    We'll just keep this part of the novel and add a touch of resume to it.

    I've been tuning and writing chips since EFI cars came out. Initially it was pretty archaic. I took a break for 6 years when I moved across country but I can assure you, I've ripped into the GM and Ford side of things pretty extensively. At times I would be pulling raw data, converting from hex to binary and burning eproms in the shop just to have a little fun. Now how many folks have an eprom burner and solder gun out there?
    Now I'm just jumping back in with one foot. Am I a shop? No. Did I used to be, yup. Do I want to be again, nope. It remains fun while it's still a hobby.
    I've worked with some pretty BIG names in the industry out on the west side and know a great many of the fantastic engineers and tuners out there, to include some of the big web tuners.
    I just want you to see this for what it is. Just because someone is here on a Caddy forum with a handle you are unfamiliar with does not mean they did not used to write calibrations for Pro-M air meters, tune for Hutchinson racing, have buddies he used to work personally with on an F1 team or own 50% a 30,000 sq ft shop among other things. Sounds like I want to talk about it but I really do not. Seems it will add perspective though. Thanks.

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