CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important! - Page 5
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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important! in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by RWTD It's not new information, and it has been mentioned on these forums before, based on a ...
  1. #61
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    It's not new information, and it has been mentioned on these forums before, based on a post by Jesse in regards to an aftermarket injector, but the LSA/LS9 injector is an angled spray pattern. Greg Bannish (eficalibrator on many tuning forums) stated it best nearly 2 years ago:

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showpo...5&postcount=30



    The reverse effect happens on the LSA/LS9 engines. This is where we have to be cautious when using an injector with a spray pattern that isn't similar to the factory injectors.



    I'm assuming they are the factory injector that has been drilled to flow more? If so, this is what some do on the GT500s (factory injector modified to flow from 47# to 72# at the same DeltaP). The only problem here is that the characteristics of the injector change everywhere, NOT just in the flow rate, so using factory data with them would be crapshoot at best. Will it work? Sure, but it won't be right. If you are fine with that, so be it. I'm not, as I'm a perfectionist when it comes to tuning.

    The best thing to do would have them flowed and have calibration data generated for them in GM units. There is one individual that can do this properly, and that is Paul Yaw (see here: http://www.yawpower.com). You can contact him to have your injectors flowed with calibration data in GM units (he can also give them in Ford units, as well). Hopefully, the repeatability would be the same throughout each modified injector.

    * I contacted him and he does not do this anymore. Just fyi....

    Regards,

    James
    See my red. Just letting you know. Thanks for the good reference material though!

  2. #62
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Thanks Jesse. I was wondering when you would comment on this topic.

    Edit:

    I just got off the phone with Carmen of Vette Doctors and I asked about Kenny Kabooms
    car. Kenny said it would be ok for me to contact him. Kenny ran a 200 shot without issue.
    Carmen said he did a complete auxillary system that came on with boost. Included regulator, separate pump and lines. Approximately $1,100.. Not sure if that was installed or not. It was one off but he could put it together for those that request it.

  3. #63
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post

    I'm assuming they are the factory injector that has been drilled to flow more? If so, this is what some do on the GT500s (factory injector modified to flow from 47# to 72# at the same DeltaP). The only problem here is that the characteristics of the injector change everywhere, NOT just in the flow rate, so using factory data with them would be crapshoot at best. Will it work? Sure, but it won't be right. If you are fine with that, so be it. I'm not, as I'm a perfectionist when it comes to tuning.

    The best thing to do would have them flowed and have calibration data generated for them in GM units. There is one individual that can do this properly, and that is Paul Yaw (see here: http://www.yawpower.com). You can contact him to have your injectors flowed with calibration data in GM units (he can also give them in Ford units, as well). Hopefully, the repeatability would be the same throughout each modified injector.

    Regards,

    James
    I believe he is drilling the factory injectors to flow more as evidenced by the $80 core charge until the stock injectors are shipped to him. He said it's 80 lb/hr at 3 bar or 43.5 psi so that would be 106.66 lb/hr at 4 bar. Damn!

    At some point the 190 lph pump will run dry but it does not seem to be an issue yet. Seems kinda small for a high HP application based on past pump sizing exercises. Time to run the math on that.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    I believe he is drilling the factory injectors to flow more as evidenced by the $80 core charge until the stock injectors are shipped to him. He said it's 80 lb/hr at 3 bar or 43.5 psi so that would be 106.66 lb/hr at 4 bar. Damn!

    At some point the 190 lph pump will run dry but it does not seem to be an issue yet. Seems kinda small for a high HP application based on past pump sizing exercises. Time to run the math on that.
    Actually thats 190l/ph x2 (two pumps) 380l/ph total roughly as long as the lines can accomodate the output.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    I believe he is drilling the factory injectors to flow more as evidenced by the $80 core charge until the stock injectors are shipped to him. He said it's 80 lb/hr at 3 bar or 43.5 psi so that would be 106.66 lb/hr at 4 bar. Damn!

    At some point the 190 lph pump will run dry but it does not seem to be an issue yet. Seems kinda small for a high HP application based on past pump sizing exercises. Time to run the math on that.
    so if your drilling them out, wouldn't you still drill the same angle as org so then the angle of spray is still the same?

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    so if your drilling them out, wouldn't you still drill the same angle as org so then the angle of spray is still the same?
    The spray pattern is still the same as the factory injector, I believe the internals of the injector is what is bored out larger for the flow increase, the nozzle end (what you see is not responsible solely for injector flow that I know of).

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by snzuloz View Post
    The spray pattern is still the same as the factory injector, I believe the internals of the injector is what is bored out larger for the flow increase, the nozzle end (what you see is not responsible solely for injector flow that I know of).
    Kind of what I thought.

    Thanks.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by snzuloz View Post
    Actually thats 190l/ph x2 (two pumps) 380l/ph total roughly as long as the lines can accomodate the output.
    Are you 100% sure on twin 190's?

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    Are you 100% sure on twin 190's?
    yes 100% sure, the single 190 would not cut it for sure, check one of the latest threads regarding fuel restriction, it shows a picture of the pump assembly. From what i've been able to figure out the pumps are capable of at least 850hp if the injector sizing is correct, and the fuel lines aren't a factor, and a max of 65psi -not delta p(this is from one of the sites on how to determine how much pumps can support).

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...striction.html

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by snzuloz View Post
    yes 100% sure, the single 190 would not cut it for sure, check one of the latest threads regarding fuel restriction, it shows a picture of the pump assembly. From what i've been able to figure out the pumps are capable of at least 850hp if the injector sizing is correct, and the fuel lines aren't a factor, and a max of 65psi -not delta p(this is from one of the sites on how to determine how much pumps can support).
    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...striction.html
    Troy, Is that 850 rwhp or crank?

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by cbloveday View Post
    Troy, Is that 850 rwhp or crank?
    Measured at the crank, it's actually slightly higher than 850, depending on the formula and the psi and BSFC used. I used 65psi as the max fuel pressure, .60 BSFC, 80% duty cycle and 380l/ph supply with the injectors I mentioned earlier in this post. Only thing not known is how much the stock lines can stand.

    Curtis, you will need to look at the datalogs to see how much injector you currently have left, if it's the injectors that I think you have you have LOTS left. Remember that if Jesse is able to get more voltage than the 12.8 mentioned from the fuel controller to the pumps the output of the pumps will be increased by a large margin. I guarantee that Jesse will be able to tell you straight up whether or not you can install the 100 pill, my guess he is worried about other things holding up.

  12. #72
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I'll talk to him in the spring. Thanks Troy.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by snzuloz View Post
    yes 100% sure, the single 190 would not cut it for sure, check one of the latest threads regarding fuel restriction, it shows a picture of the pump assembly. From what i've been able to figure out the pumps are capable of at least 850hp if the injector sizing is correct, and the fuel lines aren't a factor, and a max of 65psi -not delta p(this is from one of the sites on how to determine how much pumps can support).

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...striction.html
    Yes, I've seen that thread and know of the diagram. There is only one part number for the V fuel pump so I was pretty sure they were the same rating, unlike the ZR1 with different part numbers. While they may be the same rating, the different might be fitament/packaging requiring the parts and part numbers to be different.
    380 lph is certainly good for 850 HP as you've said. I really like the fact they manu's are now building car with capacity over an above the 10 HP windows we used to have, lol.

  14. #74
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Has anyone seen a wrecked V in a yard that could cut the line and measure the ID?

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by cbloveday View Post
    I honestly do not know. What I do not understand is why my air fuel is 11.8 to 11.9 with everything stock but my injectors. I have 700+ rwhp. My car has a wideband installed to monitor the A/F and have been extensively dynoed with wideband during my build.

    I have yet to hear of a "jesse car" going kaboom due to lean condition.
    I'm not pointing fingers are any tuner specific. You mentioned Jesse, and although I have heard of him, I don't him personally. I'm sure he's one of the "good guys" in the tuning world both he and I reside within, and the post he just put up in this thread shows me he has an in-depth understanding of the fuel system of the CTS-V2, and that's good to hear.

    Who I'm pointing fingers at is ANY tuner who is hacking the tune, and that's the majority of them in the GM tuning world (it's not nearly as bad in the Ford world), unfortunate as it is. Things like NOT renormalizing the airmass axis on the spark tables so that the additional boost added doesn't get recognized, hacking the PE (Power Enrichment, aka WOT fueling tables), instead of setting it as Desired/Commanded, and then obtaining that via proper MAF transfer table tuning, etc, etc, this list goes on.

    Also, the same tuners and/or manufacturers who aren't taking the time to explain to their customers of the limitations they potentially can be running into, yet just selling them parts to install all for profit. This happens all the time in both the GM and Ford world. It still happens to this day on the '03-'04 Cobras, where companies who port blowers for a living sell unsuspecting owners a ported blower that'll allow their Cobra to hit 500+ rwhp Actual, yet doesn't inform them that their stock MAF pegs 5v at approx. 470 rwhp, and their stock fuel pumps and injectors are done by 480 rwhp Actual. Then he sells them tunes saying they don't need these upgraded parts. Why? Because the customer would scoff at paying an additional $900 bucks for say a MAFia, 60# injectors, and a BAP, and he wouldn't get the sell for the ported blower. Sad!

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