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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important! in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; I just found this post from Jesse via a search "you are using 72psi at 4 bar, at the 75 ...
  1. #46
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I just found this post from Jesse via a search

    "you are using 72psi at 4 bar, at the 75 psi that im commanding they are much more. you have alot of fuel injector left."

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by cbloveday View Post
    I just found this post from Jesse via a search

    "you are using 72psi at 4 bar, at the 75 psi that im commanding they are much more. you have alot of fuel injector left."
    My question to you after reading what you just quoted is what fuel system are you using? The stock pumps/basket assembly? If so, like I've already pointed out, one can request all the pressure in the tune they want, but they are NOT going to get over 65.x psi (4.5-bar) on the factory CTS-V2 pump assembly, due to relief valve limitation.

    Also, Jesse meant to say 72# at 4-bar (58 psi of fuel pressure), as in your injectors are flowing 72 lb/hr at 58 psi of fuel pressure, not 72 psi at 58 psi.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I am using stock pumps/basket assembly. I do not understand this topic well enough apparently. I would like to know what is the max rwhp this will setup will run.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by cbloveday View Post
    I am using stock pumps/basket assembly. I do not understand this topic well enough apparently. I would like to know what is the max rwhp this will setup will run.
    Well, unless the individual that the quote you posted was originally directed to has an aftermarket relief valve in his factory pump assembly, then the tuner helping him doesn't have a knowledgeable understanding of how the system works. I'm leaning more to the latter. It has also been stated in another thread that the limitation of 65 psi max fuel pressure is the FPCM (fuel pump control module), which is absolutely not correct, but rather the built-in relief valve that I have been discussing.

    It's just damn scary to think folks are putting their trust in this type of limited and incorrect information, especially when many of you are buying parts/tunes from these various companies/tuners, and they are putting your vehicles at the limits of their current fuel system arrangement, yet you didn't even realize such. Sorry, I'm ranting again, and I'll probably have some pissy feedback from these guys (facts are stubborn things, but they can't escape reality of truth), but this type of stuff just irks me. You all need to start demanding better from these companies/tuners. It's not fair to you.

    So back to your question, what fuel system do you have exactly?

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by cbloveday View Post
    Where the heck is Jesse?
    I would like his opinion on this. I am fairly certain he did something to fool the fuel pump for me.
    I would like to know with my injectors and pump, what is the limit?

    I have forgot what size he told me they. The size is not listed on my invoice.
    told me 62 at idle, 100 at WOT....

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I'd like to know what injectors these are, as well (as in manufacturer and part #). Right now, the largest aftermarket injector that has actual known true calibration data in GM units is the Siemens 80# (which flows approx. 92 psi at 58 psi). If there isn't any calibration data on them that means the tunes being made for your vehicles are being RAPED with "guessing" injector data. This throws off the MAF transfer, the true estimated airmass/Load entering into the engine, which throws off the spark tables, idle tables (ANYTHING referenced by airmass, and there are HUNDREDS of parameters within the tune that do). That's HACK tuning at its finest. It may sound crude, but it's just the facts.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    Installing a pressure gauge is not necessarily needed, as you can log the DeltaP, as well as the Requested, along with the MAP, thus easily determining what your Actual pressure is in the lines. Actual pressure is Requested minus DeltaP. Unlike most all '99-'10 Fords (and 2011 GT500, but not the 2011 Mustang V6 and GT), the ERFS (electronic returnless fuel system) on a GM is NOT vacuum/boost referenced.


    In his defense he said the fuel pressure gauge at the rails because that's where we really care about it and I mentioned using an ob2 scanner, digital and he said these dont show it fast like a analog gauge since you have to be looking at it to see it. He also said that the stock lines have lots of sharp 90's he is afraid are the limiting issues.


    At this point, I truly believe the factory lines are plenty fine to at least 700 rwhp. Like I said, installing aftermarket lines would definitely increase the headroom, especially when you're getting close to the factory line limit. I do like the fact that he used the teflon lines, since that'll keep any fuel "weep" (smell) from coming through. He said the exact same thing!!!!!We do this regularly on other vehicles, as well.

    At this point, the easiest options would be such:

    Option A (for those who want to upgrade the factory injectors):

    #1a: Siemens 60# Injectors:

    http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.a...114962&eq=&Tp=
    (If you get these, make absolutely sure you buy the flow-matched 8-pack. Racetronix is 100% trustworthy, along with excellent customer service. Most dealers buy their injectors through them, including myself.)

    These injectors flow 75# at 58 psi (4-bar), 79# at 65 psi (4.5 bar, which is the current limit of the relief valve on the CTS-V2 pump assembly), and 91# at 87 psi (6 bar, which is the limit of the ZR1 relief valve). I also have ALL of the true/proper injector data for these injectors in GM units (as well as Ford units), so there would be ZERO hacking done to the injector parameters (there are 4 difference parameters that must ALL be modified in order for these injectors to work properly - it's NOT just an IFR table change).

    #2a: Lowering max output of the fuel system to 58 psi via the tune (easily accomplished via a simple value change), which would lower the duty cycle of the factory pumps, and ultimately give more headroom. Since 75# of injector is enough for 850 to 900 rwhp Actual, then you wouldn't need any higher pressures.

    #3a (Optional, for extreme power ranges): Installing a BAP post-FPCM for additional headroom on the pumps. You could also then increase the max pressure in the tune back up to 65 psi (if needed).


    Option B (for those who want to keep the stock injectors):

    #1b: Changing out the relief valve (65 psi, 4.5-bar) to that of the ZR1 (87 psi, 6-bar), OR installing the ADM plug (would not prevent pressure spikes, however).

    #2b: Installing a BAP post-FPCM for additional headroom on the pumps, and then increasing the max pressure in the tune to the ZR1 values, which is 87 psi. This would be enough factory injector for 625 to 650 rwhp Actual on the A6, and potentially 650 to 675 on the M6.

    Note: On the ZR1, at approx. 13 to 15 psi of boost, a Requested 87 psi, will give approx. 72+ psi of DeltaP (pressure at the injectors), which would be approx. 8.x# more of injector flow rate (the injector would go from roughly 49# to 58#), which would add approx. additional 100 rwhp Actual capacity.


    Regards,

    James

    Thanks for the info. I think i see my solution.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    I'd like to know what injectors these are, as well (as in manufacturer and part #). Right now, the largest aftermarket injector that has actual known true calibration data in GM units is the Siemens 80# (which flows approx. 92 psi at 58 psi). If there isn't any calibration data on them that means the tunes being made for your vehicles are being RAPED with "guessing" injector data. This throws off the MAF transfer, the true estimated airmass/Load entering into the engine, which throws off the spark tables, idle tables (ANYTHING referenced by airmass, and there are HUNDREDS of parameters within the tune that do). That's HACK tuning at its finest. It may sound crude, but it's just the facts.
    I have seen Jesse quote what I posted somewhere. And they are rebuilt and balanced from what I can remember. Let me try and find the thread.

  9. #54
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    Thanks for the info. I think i see my solution.
    It's not new information, and it has been mentioned on these forums before, based on a post by Jesse in regards to an aftermarket injector, but the LSA/LS9 injector is an angled spray pattern. Greg Bannish (eficalibrator on many tuning forums) stated it best nearly 2 years ago:

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showpo...5&postcount=30

    Quote Originally Posted by eficalibrator
    A little more research shows that the LS9/A injector has a bent angle to the same spray cone. They end up targetting the same spot (back of the intake valve) on the supercharged engines, but from a different injector position in the intake.

    If you install these in the conventional position on an LS1/2/3/6/7, you run the risk of targetting the spray at the port wall instead of the valve. The flow rate is there, but the wall film effects will be much greater. Can you tune around this? Sure, but it's going to take a bunch of work to the "fuel to wall impact factor" and "evap factor" tables to tame the transient response.
    The reverse effect happens on the LSA/LS9 engines. This is where we have to be cautious when using an injector with a spray pattern that isn't similar to the factory injectors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    I have seen Jesse quote what I posted somewhere. And they are rebuilt and balanced from what I can remember. Let me try and find the thread.
    I'm assuming they are the factory injector that has been drilled to flow more? If so, this is what some do on the GT500s (factory injector modified to flow from 47# to 72# at the same DeltaP). The only problem here is that the characteristics of the injector change everywhere, NOT just in the flow rate, so using factory data with them would be crapshoot at best. Will it work? Sure, but it won't be right. If you are fine with that, so be it. I'm not, as I'm a perfectionist when it comes to tuning.

    The best thing to do would have them flowed and have calibration data generated for them in GM units. There is one individual that can do this properly, and that is Paul Yaw (see here: http://www.yawpower.com). You can contact him to have your injectors flowed with calibration data in GM units (he can also give them in Ford units, as well). Hopefully, the repeatability would be the same throughout each modified injector.

    Regards,

    James

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    Thanks for the info. I think i see my solution.
    I just modified that slightly, bud. See below:

    Option B (for those who want to keep the stock injectors):

    #1b: Changing out the relief valve (65 psi, 4.5-bar) to that of the ZR1 (87 psi, 6-bar), OR installing the ADM plug (would not prevent pressure spikes, however). This would be enough factory injector for 625 to 650 rwhp Actual on the A6, and potentially 650 to 675 on the M6. The only limitation would potentially be the fuel supply from the pumps.

    #2b (Optional): If a fuel supply issue with #1b above occurs, then installing a BAP post-FPCM for additional headroom on the pumps would correct for such. However, if power is needed higher than the numbers listed in #1b, since the injectors would then be too small, you might as well go with option #1a above.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by newcadman View Post
    Can't understand though why D3 with their " expertise" in research and development haven't outlined any of this information?
    Seriously?? I mean, SERIOUSLY???

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    [QUOTE=RWTD;2441827]Well, unless the individual that the quote you posted was originally directed to has an aftermarket relief valve in his factory pump assembly, then the tuner helping him doesn't have a knowledgeable understanding of how the system works. I'm leaning more to the latter. It has also been stated in another thread that the limitation of 65 psi max fuel pressure is the FPCM (fuel pump control module), which is absolutely not correct, but rather the built-in relief valve that I have been discussing.

    It's just damn scary to think folks are putting their trust in this type of limited and incorrect information, especially when many of you are buying parts/tunes from these various companies/tuners, and they are putting your vehicles at the limits of their current fuel system arrangement, yet you didn't even realize such. Sorry, I'm ranting again, and I'll probably have some pissy feedback from these guys (facts are stubborn things, but they can't escape reality of truth), but this type of stuff just irks me. You all need to start demanding better from these companies/tuners. It's not fair to you.

    So back to your question, what fuel system do you have exactly?[/QUOTE]

    I honestly do not know. What I do not understand is why my air fuel is 11.8 to 11.9 with everything stock but my injectors. I have 700+ rwhp. My car has a wideband installed to monitor the A/F and have been extensively dynoed with wideband during my build.

    I have yet to hear of a "jesse car" going kaboom due to lean condition.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    All very interesting. I enjoyed Yaw's site....!!!


    cbloveday, yup I too have not heard that as of this posting.

  14. #59
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Hi Guys this is all old news stuff.


    We did EXTENSIVE TESTING on this when these cars first came out in 2008 on MY CAR. I posted the results and videos for you guys way back then on this site and ls1tech i believe..

    The guys at lingenfelter and myself at my shop found all the max limitations and im sure if you guys search you will find myself explaining all of this. They got to use my car as a guinea pig when i was done with it.

    The pumps are a Pulse width modified signal pump. It has a duty cycle from 30 - 100%. At 100% the pumps just cant output any more flow no matter what pressure you try to run.

    When you space the regulator with the washer to allow it to cut off higher, you still only get 75psi safely. But that dont fix the 100% PUMP DUTY CYCLE.

    It is alot easier and cheaper to just command 70psi and let it run on the regulator at wot and just put in the 80lb @ 3 bar injector.

    It allows for 99% duty cycle on the fpdm and 75% duty cycle on the injector at 750hp.

    There are alot of things i do differently that no one else does. My voltage from my fpdm program is 14.3volts. "it wont allow higher without overheating" No one else changes this that i know of... Stock settings are 12.9 regulated + base on the negitive line.

    That allows me ALOT more resolution to get past the limits others are seeing without having to buy a boost a pump..

    I have Yet to kill a 650 rwhp engine here are our shop and these cars have been modified since november of 2008 when i first got mine and many other people at our shop..
    As some customers are reporting 50,000 miles + no on thier mods... Looking thru our records, we have sold HUNDREDS of kits, and built a ton as well here personally at our shop and i have not heard of any failures.. The internet would be the first to know im sure...

    You cant really put on a boost a pump on these. As you will see, when you do there is a 72 AMP SPIKE when it initially kicks on, which will cause a system reset on the WHOLE CAR. causing a massive stall condition that you will see and feel. Even changing the power and grounds to larger gauge all the way to the pumps does not fix this issue.

    So that is why we had to figure out the fpdm programming.

    I can use a stock injector to handle 600RWHP we do it here all the time..

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by wait4me View Post
    Hi Guys this is all old news stuff.


    We did EXTENSIVE TESTING on this when these cars first came out in 2008 on MY CAR. I posted the results and videos for you guys way back then on this site and ls1tech i believe..

    The guys at lingenfelter and myself at my shop found all the max limitations and im sure if you guys search you will find myself explaining all of this. They got to use my car as a guinea pig when i was done with it.

    The pumps are a Pulse width modified signal pump. It has a duty cycle from 30 - 100%. At 100% the pumps just cant output any more flow no matter what pressure you try to run.

    When you space the regulator with the washer to allow it to cut off higher, you still only get 75psi safely. But that dont fix the 100% PUMP DUTY CYCLE.

    It is alot easier and cheaper to just command 70psi and let it run on the regulator at wot and just put in the 80lb @ 3 bar injector.

    It allows for 99% duty cycle on the fpdm and 75% duty cycle on the injector at 750hp.

    There are alot of things i do differently that no one else does. My voltage from my fpdm program is 14.3volts. "it wont allow higher without overheating" No one else changes this that i know of... Stock settings are 12.9 regulated + base on the negitive line.

    That allows me ALOT more resolution to get past the limits others are seeing without having to buy a boost a pump..

    I have Yet to kill a 650 rwhp engine here are our shop and these cars have been modified since november of 2008 when i first got mine and many other people at our shop..
    As some customers are reporting 50,000 miles + no on thier mods... Looking thru our records, we have sold HUNDREDS of kits, and built a ton as well here personally at our shop and i have not heard of any failures.. The internet would be the first to know im sure...

    You cant really put on a boost a pump on these. As you will see, when you do there is a 72 AMP SPIKE when it initially kicks on, which will cause a system reset on the WHOLE CAR. causing a massive stall condition that you will see and feel. Even changing the power and grounds to larger gauge all the way to the pumps does not fix this issue.

    So that is why we had to figure out the fpdm programming.

    I can use a stock injector to handle 600RWHP we do it here all the time..
    Thanks jesse for chiming in.

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