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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important! in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; I'm still looking at some stuff. There are two types of pumps with two sides for the current ZR1, doesn't ...
  1. #31
    DrumStix is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I'm still looking at some stuff. There are two types of pumps with two sides for the current ZR1, doesn't matter which model year, for a total of 4 options with varying prices. We have components with and without the "super sport performance package," whatever the hell that means. Unlike the V, we also have left and right side module kits. No flow numbers yet...
    The super sport performance package is a heck of a lot more $ for the drivers side. Is there a 400 nitrous shot option for these cars? Geesh.

  2. #32
    Domsz06 is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    Ask him is he knows the fuel line inside diameter size.
    I just called him and he didn't answer. I will ask him when he returns my call.

  3. #33
    DrumStix is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    The 2011 ZR1 updated fuel pump part numbers are 19207431 (left) and 19207962 (right). Obviously a dual pump setup likely for running lower on fuel levels while maintaining pressure during cornering around or above 1 G. That's the SSC optioned pump kits. Prices are about $1100 and $285 respectively from GMPartsDirect which is around wholesale and way off list but I can get the $1,100 pump for $391. I sorta feel like Chopper from Tobin Dodge. Where's the blue genie?
    These pumps as 94mm at the mounting lock ring/cam. I do not know they height but the style looks pretty different.

    Need to research flow differences and capabilities next.

  4. #34
    RWTD's Avatar
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    Let us know what you find out. This could be a nice fix. Lonnies performance just PM'd me saying that the pumps can handle 600 rwhp, but the lines can not.... I'll be calling them in an hr to discuss with them....
    Hmmm...

    I will say this, the factory '03-'04 Cobra has factory lines and rails that will flow over 750 rwhp Actual (I even believe the '02-'04 Mustang GT can do the same). The '99-'04 Lightning, the same thing. The GT40, well over 1000 rwhp. I have never tested the limit, but the '05+ Mustang GT and GT500, over 800. Do you see the point I'm getting to? I seriously believe the Caddy's factory lines support over 600 rwhp Actual. Sure, you'll obviously gain quite a bit of headroom with aftermarket lines, but...

  5. #35
    Domsz06 is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    Hmmm...

    I will say this, the factory '03-'04 Cobra has factory lines and rails that will flow over 750 rwhp Actual (I even believe the '02-'04 Mustang GT can do the same). The '99-'04 Lightning, the same thing. The GT40, well over 1000 rwhp. I have never tested the limit, but the '05+ Mustang GT and GT500, over 800. Do you see the point I'm getting to? I seriously believe the Caddy's factory lines support over 600 rwhp Actual. Sure, you'll obviously gain quite a bit of headroom with aftermarket lines, but...
    I totally see what your saying, and so far your points are all very spot on IMO. I was just saying what he said. I want to do a fix, and if the BAP is the best way when I decide to do something to the car, then I'll do it. Just curious is all. I'd love to just remove a relief spring or what not, but just wondering...

    I live at sea level, so I KNOW I will have this issue.

  6. #36
    DrumStix is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    Hmmm...

    I will say this, the factory '03-'04 Cobra has factory lines and rails that will flow over 750 rwhp Actual (I even believe the '02-'04 Mustang GT can do the same). The '99-'04 Lightning, the same thing. The GT40, well over 1000 rwhp. I have never tested the limit, but the '05+ Mustang GT and GT500, over 800. Do you see the point I'm getting to? I seriously believe the Caddy's factory lines support over 600 rwhp Actual. Sure, you'll obviously gain quite a bit of headroom with aftermarket lines, but...
    Kinda what I was thinking as well but let's see. Guys are running way over 600 rwhp already and I bet they will support 1,000 hp.

  7. #37
    newcadman is online now Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by snzuloz View Post
    Any chance that you could tell if the ZR-1 fuel pump is the same as the V2? I know its probably only sold as an assembly but maybe they can break it down further to see. My guess is the same pumps, with the change in regulator assembly and possibly fitment packaging if required.

    What is the stock fuel line size on the V?

    I remember with the turbo Buick (G.N.) the stock system was really inneficient (wiring was lacking and subsequent voltage drop), then came the hotwire kit, then people thought about fuel line size being an issue (changing from 3/8 to 1/2 line), then the double pumper came out (skeptical whether half the cars that are outfitted with it really benefit from it as it was a tuning nightmare-once the second pump kicks in the fuel pressure would spike up) . A lot of this was way overboard to begin with, a walbro 255 hotwired would easily power the car safely into the 10's (trust me that's what I run) and still not even close to running low on fuel pressure or maxing any duty cycle (85lb/hr injectors).

    Interesting thread to say the least.




    Troy, you are absolutely spot on.

    When this thread was first posted I can remember thinking that Buick GN owners went down this road some almost 20 years ago.

    I can distinctly remember the controversy about the 3/8" lines vs the 1/2" lines and Buick guru Red Armstrong who was making 750 rwhp saying the 3/8" factory line was more than adequate. That being the case, I shouldn't think it necessary to change to the 1/2" line.

    As you also mentioned the voltage to the (GN's) fuel pump was woefully sub standard due to the weak factory wiring and needed to be upgraded.
    Once the wiring was upgraded and the "proper" voltage was being supplied the pump's output changed dramatically, albeit in stock configuration!
    Would really like to know what kind of voltage we are seeing at the pump with the V's factory wiring? Be interesting to find out. The reason being that even going from 13.5 volts to 15 volts on a GN pump made a significant difference in pump output.

  8. #38
    Domsz06 is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Well got off the phone with Lonnie,

    He said that he has a customer pushing 900 rwhp with the stock pumps. He just built a custom fuel lines with -8 tefalon lines.

    He didn't know the stock lines but he feels that it's the sharp bends and everything in the plastic lines that limit everything.

    Doesn't help much, but there ya go. He was really nice to talk to and wishes he had a v2 in the Pitts area he could make a kit for... (so if you live there and want to go talk to him.....)

    another thing that would be interesting to do is to put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail to see what we are actually getting at the rail. He also suggested perhaps moving the stock pressure sensor, since it's right after the fuel pump so that way the ECU will adjust and pump harder to get the pressure we are demanding......

  9. #39
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    another thing that would be interesting to do is to put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail to see what we are actually getting at the rail. He also suggested perhaps moving the stock pressure sensor, since it's right after the fuel pump so that way the ECU will adjust and pump harder to get the pressure we are demanding......
    Installing a pressure gauge is not necessarily needed, as you can log the DeltaP, as well as the Requested, along with the MAP, thus easily determining what your Actual pressure is in the lines. Actual pressure is Requested minus DeltaP. Unlike most all '99-'10 Fords (and 2011 GT500, but not the 2011 Mustang V6 and GT), the ERFS (electronic returnless fuel system) on a GM is NOT vacuum/boost referenced.

    At this point, I truly believe the factory lines are plenty fine to at least 700 rwhp. Like I said, installing aftermarket lines would definitely increase the headroom, especially when you're getting close to the factory line limit. I do like the fact that he used the teflon lines, since that'll keep any fuel "weep" (smell) from coming through. We do this regularly on other vehicles, as well.

    At this point, the easiest options would be such:

    Option A (for those who want to upgrade the factory injectors):

    #1a: Siemens 60# Injectors:

    http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.a...114962&eq=&Tp=
    (If you get these, make absolutely sure you buy the flow-matched 8-pack. Racetronix is 100% trustworthy, along with excellent customer service. Most dealers buy their injectors through them, including myself.)

    These injectors flow 75# at 58 psi (4-bar), 79# at 65 psi (4.5 bar, which is the current limit of the relief valve on the CTS-V2 pump assembly), and 91# at 87 psi (6 bar, which is the limit of the ZR1 relief valve). I also have ALL of the true/proper injector data for these injectors in GM units (as well as Ford units), so there would be ZERO hacking done to the injector parameters (there are 4 difference parameters that must ALL be modified in order for these injectors to work properly - it's NOT just an IFR table change).

    #2a: Lowering max output of the fuel system to 58 psi via the tune (easily accomplished via a simple value change), which would lower the duty cycle of the factory pumps, and ultimately give more headroom. Since 75# of injector is enough for 850 to 900 rwhp Actual, then you wouldn't need any higher pressures.

    #3a (Optional, for extreme power ranges): Installing a BAP post-FPCM for additional headroom on the pumps. You could also then increase the max pressure in the tune back up to 65 psi (if needed).


    Option B (for those who want to keep the stock injectors):

    #1b: Changing out the relief valve (65 psi, 4.5-bar) to that of the ZR1 (87 psi, 6-bar), OR installing the ADM plug (would not prevent pressure spikes, however). This would be enough factory injector for 625 to 650 rwhp Actual on the A6, and potentially 650 to 675 on the M6. The only limitation would potentially be the fuel supply from the pumps.

    #2b (Optional): If a fuel supply issue with #1b above occurs, then installing a BAP post-FPCM for additional headroom on the pumps would correct for such. However, if power is needed higher than the numbers listed in #1b, since the injectors would then be too small, you might as well go with option #1a above.

    Note: On the ZR1, at approx. 13 to 15 psi of boost, a Requested 87 psi, will give approx. 72+ psi of DeltaP (pressure at the injectors), which would be approx. 8.x# more of injector flow rate (the injector would go from roughly 49# to 58#), which would add approx. additional 100 rwhp Actual capacity.


    Regards,

    James

  10. #40
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    Well got off the phone with Lonnie,


    another thing that would be interesting to do is to put a fuel pressure gauge on the rail to see what we are actually getting at the rail. He also suggested perhaps moving the stock pressure sensor, since it's right after the fuel pump so that way the ECU will adjust and pump harder to get the pressure we are demanding......
    Actually it doesn't matter where the pressure sensor is in the system (pressure is the same at any given point wherever it's measured) flow is the only thing that could be affected eg-orifice or restriction.

    I think the stock lines are fine well into the 700+ hp range.
    Injectors are the best option, they will get the system pressure down with no need for a bap or any extra work.

  11. #41
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Where the heck is Jesse?
    I would like his opinion on this. I am fairly certain he did something to fool the fuel pump for me.
    I would like to know with my injectors and pump, what is the limit?

    I have forgot what size he told me they. The size is not listed on my invoice.

  12. #42
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by cbloveday View Post
    Where the heck is Jesse?
    I would like his opinion on this. I am fairly certain he did something to fool the fuel pump for me.
    I would like to know with my injectors and pump, what is the limit?

    I have forgot what size he told me they. The size is not listed on my invoice.
    Curtis, I'm "guessing" your injectors are 80.5 lb/hr at 43.5 psi, which when run at these higher pressures if commanded would handle more than you are currently making and then some. I'm sure Jesse will chime in, kinda surprised that more of the tuners haven't been involved as well... I wouldn't be to worried about your setup, Jesse obviously datalogs your setup and would notice if the fuel pressure or duty cycle was getting on the edge of being safe. I would really like to get more feedback and put everyone's mind at ease as well.

    If you do the math that setup would run 750 crank hp, at .60 BSFC with max of .70 duty cycle and 43.5 psi fuel rail pressure. obviously there is more available if the commanded psi was raised.

  13. #43
    DrumStix is offline Cadillac Owner
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by cbloveday View Post
    Where the heck is Jesse?
    I would like his opinion on this. I am fairly certain he did something to fool the fuel pump for me.
    I would like to know with my injectors and pump, what is the limit?

    I have forgot what size he told me they. The size is not listed on my invoice.
    Jesse sells 80's at 43.5 psi.

  14. #44
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I am dying to change my jet pills to 75hp or 100hp and say "F" it for a new PB @ byron this spring. Since I got this wideband hooked up to my progressive controller, I can set nos cutoff limits on the lean or rich A/F. I set the safety cutoffs to rich 10.5 and lean 12.3. I just do not want to run it and find out I can not get a bigger fuel pill in there because the fuel system is maxed out. Am I on target here or just ignorant? If I can get a very low 10 or high 9 run in @ with a 100 shot, I will get my slip and then back down the power and enjoy. I am considering calling vette doctors, and speaking to Carmen. He did Blackmax's build and addressed the fuel system. For all I know it was just bigger injectors and commanding more fuel. He did this back in Sept of 09

  15. #45
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by cbloveday View Post
    I am dying to change my jet pills to 75hp or 100hp and say "F" it for a new PB @ byron this spring. Since I got this wideband hooked up to my progressive controller, I can set nos cutoff limits on the lean or rich A/F. I set the safety cutoffs to rich 10.5 and lean 12.3. I just do not want to run it and find out I can not get a bigger fuel pill in there because the fuel system is maxed out. Am I on target here or just ignorant? If I can get a very low 10 or high 9 run in @ with a 100 shot, I will get my slip and then back down the power and enjoy. I am considering calling vette doctors, and speaking to Carmen. He did Blackmax's build and addressed the fuel system. For all I know it was just bigger injectors and commanding more fuel. He did this back in Sept of 09
    From what i've been able to figure out, the stock pump setup 190l/ph (x2) should be capable of 850+ crank h/p as long as the fuel line size is not limiting max flow, this would require a minimum of 63-65 psi pump pressure with roughly 15lbs boost (for reference), delta p 48-50psi, BSFC .60 all of this is based on the 80lb/hr injector sizing. Just from some of the many sources available on the net. I think you are on target Curtis, I would really consult with Jesse, he can show you how close you are to the duty cycle limit and max system pressure and find out what's left for the extra pill.

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