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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important! in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by Domsz06 So it kind of sounds to me like adding a boost a pump for bills and ...
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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    So it kind of sounds to me like adding a boost a pump for bills and your good to go. Injectors too if you want.

    This right James or am I missing something?
    That is correct! The factory injectors generally would be fine up to 650+ rwhp, if we could request higher pressures and obtain such, as evident by the ZR1's capability. However, when the max limit of the fuel system is 4.5 bar (65.x psi), the factory injectors are going to be too small when needing power ranges above what I stated previously (525 to 550+ rwhp Actual for the A6, and 550 to 575+ rwhp for the M6). Installing say shorty (LS3/LSA/LS9 length) Siemens 60# injectors (which flows approx. 72# on a GM at 58 psi), would give a bunch more headroom, but ultimately we'll need to watch the duty cycle on the pumps to ensure that they aren't also at their max (depending on your power level). Lowering the pressures down some would give more headroom, as well, but then the factory injectors would be much too small. We just need to be cautious of the spray pattern on whatever injector is installed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    James. Do you have an email addy? Was gonna pm you but I can't....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bushidopupil View Post
    Second that email request!!!! Very good info, thanks.
    Guys, you can find me on www.hptuners.com/forum . I don't want to step on any toes here. My goal here is furthering the education of the community. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by snzuloz View Post
    I would venture to say that there is a limit set on max fuel pressure regardless of what is being "requested". I still think that the injector swap would change these findings, as the fuel pressure no longer would be required to hit those levels of "requested" pressure. I can't picture the idea of having a limit set on pump flow (regulator), it would be much easier to program out the max by limiting the max fuel pressure perhaps?
    Correct!

    Edit: Okay, my thoughts were correct, the CTS-V2 absolutely DOES have a mechanical relief valve (aka what I've been calling a regulator) off the pump assembly. See here:

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showpo...8&postcount=80

    Quote Originally Posted by E85 LSX View Post
    The CTS-V assembly has a mechanical relief valve just like the stock Camaro basket. I removed it and put in a solid machined plug that ADM supplied to ensure this valve isn't opening with my higher than stock fuel pressure. I'm not sure at what psi the stock valve is set to though
    As I linked to in my 1st post of this thread, here's a picture of the Camaro's fuel pump assembly showing the max 4-bar regulator built in, and the Caddy's will be basically just like this:



    Since the Camaro's relief valve is at 58.x psi, this leads me to believe that the Caddy's relief valve is at 65.x psi, and the ZR1's is at 87.x psi (since the ZR1 can obtain this pressure). 1 bar = 14.5037738 psi. 4 bar = 58.x psi (Camaro). 4.5 bar = 65.x psi (CTS-V2), and 6 bar = 87.x psi (ZR1). This makes absolute sense now. Therefore, the CTS-V2 fuel system is a 4.5 bar system (65.2669821 psi) at max, limited by the in-tank relief valve off the pumps. The simple answer now is to just replace the relief valve with a higher capable unit, such as one from the ZR1, OR do what E85 LSX did above (probably the easiest). So now you guys know what you have to do to get over the fuel pressure limitation! You're welcome, hehe!

    [rant on]I'm a bit shocked it took this long for someone to come along to point out the fueling limit issue, as well as give all of you an answer to the problem (I did such in a matter of a few days after tuning and studying Dennis's CTS-V2). You're getting sold parts that allow you to exceed the factory limitations of your fuel system, you're installing them, along with hacked up tunes, and then you're out having a blast (potentially literally) without knowing any of this, all because you're putting your "trust" in another. Where were all these supposed experienced tuners/mechanics before now?[/rant off]

    Anyway, my goal for the aftermarket community, whether GM or Ford or Chrysler, or whatever, is to have you all informed about the capabilities of your vehicles, and how to obtain your goals without damaging your drivetrain. I won't steer you the wrong way.

    Regards,

    James

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    I'm putting the information from this post into the above post, so please see there.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    That is correct! The factory injectors generally would be fine up to 650+ rwhp, if we could request higher pressures and obtain such, as evident by the ZR1's capability. However, when the max limit of the fuel system is 4.5 bar (65.x psi), the factory injectors are going to be too small when needing power ranges above what I stated previously (525 to 550+ rwhp Actual for the A6, and 550 to 575+ rwhp for the M6). Installing say shorty (LS3/LSA/LS9 length) Siemens 60# injectors (which flows approx. 72# on a GM at 58 psi), would give a bunch more headroom, but ultimately we'll need to watch the duty cycle on the pumps to ensure that they aren't also at their max (depending on your power level). Lowering the pressures down some would give more headroom, as well, but then the factory injectors would be much too small. We just need to be cautious of the spray pattern on whatever injector is installed.





    Guys, you can find me on www.hptuners.com/forum . I don't want to step on any toes here. My goal here is furthering the education of the community. Thanks!



    Correct!

    Edit: Okay, my thoughts were correct, the CTS-V2 absolutely DOES have a mechanical relief valve (aka what I've been calling a regulator) off the pump assembly. See here:

    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showpo...8&postcount=80



    As I linked to in my 1st post of this thread, here's a picture of the Camaro's fuel pump assembly showing the max 4-bar regulator built in, and the Caddy's will be basically just like this:



    Since the Camaro's relief valve is at 58.x psi, this leads me to believe that the Caddy's relief valve is at 65.x psi, and the ZR1's is at 87.x psi (since the ZR1 can obtain this pressure). 1 bar = 14.5037738 psi. 4 bar = 58.x psi (Camaro). 4.5 bar = 65.x psi (CTS-V2), and 6 bar = 87.x psi (ZR1). This makes absolute sense now. Therefore, the CTS-V2 fuel system is a 4.5 bar system (65.2669821 psi) at max, limited by the in-tank relief valve off the pumps. The simple answer now is to just replace the relief valve with a higher capable unit, such as one from the ZR1, OR do what E85 LSX did above (probably the easiest). So now you guys know what you have to do to get over the fuel pressure limitation! You're welcome, hehe!

    [rant on]I'm a bit shocked it took this long for someone to come along to point out the fueling limit issue, as well as give all of you an answer to the problem (I did such in a matter of a few days after tuning and studying Dennis's CTS-V2). You're getting sold parts that allow you to exceed the factory limitations of your fuel system, you're installing them, along with hacked up tunes, and then you're out having a blast (potentially literally) without knowing any of this, all because you're putting your "trust" in another. Where were all these supposed experienced tuners/mechanics before now?[/rant off] My goal for the aftermarket community, whether GM or Ford or Chrysler, or whatever, is to have you all informed about the capabilities of your vehicles, and how to obtain your goals without damaging your drivetrain.

    Regards,

    James
    so how do we do this???? Really confused lol. So we need to install a new relief valve that allows a higher pressure. I"m guessing this valve is in the fuel pump? So how do we order one from ADM, just give them a call?
    ugh i don't wanna join another forum....


    questions are getting answered but just creating more questions

    Thanks for all of this info though.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    so how do we do this???? Really confused lol. So we need to install a new relief valve that allows a higher pressure. I"m guessing this valve is in the fuel pump? So how do we order one from ADM, just give them a call?
    ugh i don't wanna join another forum....

    questions are getting answered but just creating more questions

    Thanks for all of this info though.
    Hey buddy, no worries, it's all cool. Also, I sent you a PM. Can you not receive them? Possibly I needed a higher post count than what I had previously?

    Okay, it may be possible to source the ZR1 relief valve, which allows up to 6-bar (87 psi). ADM sells a solid machined plug. The only downside with their plug is that it will more than likely not prevent a dangerous pressure spike in the system. However, I can't say what would be "dangerous". The safest option is to go with a ZR1 relief valve, if available, and if it'll work (my guess is that it will). I seriously doubt that you can buy this from GM independently of the entire ZR1 pump/basket assembly. We'd have to find the manufacturer, or have them made.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    This is great information! Basically as I see it then the stock system would be maxed at your values shown or close to it depending on sea level (da) etc. The only choices I see would be to remove the regulator and allow higher system pressure or change the injectors so max pressure in the system never approaches the cutoff point(most logical to me). I wonder how much hp would be supported from the twin 190 l/ph at 12.8v? (if 12.8 is the max voltage the pumps see).

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by snzuloz View Post
    I would venture to say that there is a limit set on max fuel pressure regardless of what is being "requested". I still think that the injector swap would change these findings, as the fuel pressure no longer would be required to hit those levels of "requested" pressure. I can't picture the idea of having a limit set on pump flow (regulator), it would be much easier to program out the max by limiting the max fuel pressure perhaps?

    Both flow (pump) and pressure (injector) as you put it are required to determine configure the overall delivery capability of the system, as well as volume. Volume would become an issue even with the decreased pressure using a larger injector. The pump would then need to work harder to maintain the even pressure and enough flow/volume to feed the injector/engine. It's always a good idea to have more pump than you need to avoid starvation, and then tune from the motor/injector electronically.

    With too large an injector, 190 lph @ 4 bar becomes the limitation and a drop in fuel pressure could take several seconds to build back up, if at all. This is more of a recipe for a lean condition and failure.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    Hey buddy, no worries, it's all cool. Also, I sent you a PM. Can you not receive them? Possibly I needed a higher post count than what I had previously?

    Okay, it may be possible to source the ZR1 relief valve, which allows up to 6-bar (87 psi). ADM sells a solid machined plug. The only downside with their plug is that it will more than likely not prevent a dangerous pressure spike in the system. However, I can't say what would be "dangerous". The safest option is to go with a ZR1 relief valve, if available, and if it'll work (my guess is that it will). I seriously doubt that you can buy this from GM independently of the entire ZR1 pump/basket assembly. We'd have to find the manufacturer, or have them made.
    Good stuff and I was just starting down this fueling path as I'm crossing that barrier to 600-650 RWHP, calculating injector tables and pressures for a couple of injector and pump types. I will check on the ZR1 specific part numbers to include the pump, relieve valve and controller.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    Both flow (pump) and pressure (injector) as you put it are required to determine configure the overall delivery capability of the system, as well as volume. Volume would become an issue even with the decreased pressure using a larger injector. The pump would then need to work harder to maintain the even pressure and enough flow/volume to feed the injector/engine. It's always a good idea to have more pump than you need to avoid starvation, and then tune from the motor/injector electronically.

    With too large an injector, 190 lph @ 4 bar becomes the limitation and a drop in fuel pressure could take several seconds to build back up, if at all. This is more of a recipe for a lean condition and failure.
    I agree somewhat (always a good idea to have more than needed-pump). I don't know what fuel pump arrangement that the ZR-1 uses-if it's still 2x190l/ph, but if it is the same they are just changing the max psi setting (regulator) to achieve their fueling needs. Having a larger injector running at a reduced duty cycle is no harder on the pump(s) than it is to run ridiculously high psi numbers and smaller injectors. Volume is going to be no different than what the engine required before the change of injectors-only going to increase when the stock system would hit the limit of it's psi capability-then the extra flow available (injectors) would be made up by the system as its no longer limited by fuel pressure cutoff. Has anyone calculated the potential for two 190l/ph pumps and see what they are capable of producing (hp) if fuel line size is not an issue? I don't personally see a problem with the stock pumps being capable of supplying the needs, given the problem is being dealt with with one of these changes mentioned.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by snzuloz View Post
    I agree somewhat (always a good idea to have more than needed-pump). I don't know what fuel pump arrangement that the ZR-1 uses-if it's still 2x190l/ph, but if it is the same they are just changing the max psi setting (regulator) to achieve their fueling needs. Having a larger injector running at a reduced duty cycle is no harder on the pump(s) than it is to run ridiculously high psi numbers and smaller injectors. Volume is going to be no different than what the engine required before the change of injectors-only going to increase when the stock system would hit the limit of it's psi capability-then the extra flow available (injectors) would be made up by the system as its no longer limited by fuel pressure cutoff. Has anyone calculated the potential for two 190l/ph pumps and see what they are capable of producing (hp) if fuel line size is not an issue? I don't personally see a problem with the stock pumps being capable of supplying the needs, given the problem is being dealt with with one of these changes mentioned.
    I will state this, the factory pump in an '05+ Mustang GT is the same pump that the '99-'04 Mustang GT and Mach 1 owners regularly upgraded to, which is the same pump that was used in the Ford Focus. This pump's true flow numbers aren't 100% known, since various tests have shown various amounts, BUT the common concensus is approx. 190 lph. Now, this particular pump in the '99-'04 Mustang is good to about 350 to 375 rwhp Actual, depending on how rich you run the system (between 11.5 and 12.0 AFR), and this is at a DeltaP of 39-40 psi. In the '05-'10 GT (S197), with the same DeltaP, this pump is good to about 375 to 400 rwhp Actual, namely because of larger fuel lines and more power capability to the pump (the alternator is electronically controlled, and one can keep voltage at 14.x+ volts constantly on the S197), and I'm sure some slight gain with increased drivetrain efficiency on these years.

    In the '07+ GT500, the system uses two of these exact pumps, as well as two FPDMs (fuel pump driver module), instead of one. A stock GT500 at approx. 44x to 46x rwhp Actual, with a DeltaP of approx. 39 psi (it's generally 39 psi, but can ramp to 50 psi under high fuel demands), along with the factory commanded AFR of 12.0 at 6k, will yield approx. 72% duty cycle at 6k rpms. With simple mods to achieve approx. 525 rwhp Actual, such as a CAI, 2.6" upper pulley, and tune, you will see right at 78% duty cycle at same rpm. All of these numbers are from my various datalogs of the years of various vehicles I have tuned (thousands).

    Whipple uses the GT500 system on their Ford Racing kits for the '05-'10 Mustang GT (the kit includes the GT500 pump assembly, wiring harness, and additional FPDM). Whipple used to include the GT40 34# fuel injector (it's now the 47# injector from the GT500), which basically wasn't sufficient enough at the stock Mustang GT DeltaP (39 psi), so Ford Racing's tunes for the S197 GT, as well as most of us aftermarket tuners' tunes, raises the DeltaP to 60 psi at high fuel flow. I'm looking at one of my datalogs from one of the many S197 Whipple setups I've installed/tuned, and the fuel pump duty cycle at 6000 rpm is 85%, and this is with a DeltaP of 60 psi and Commanded/Actual AFR of 11.7, which was right at 475 rwhp Actual, I do believe.


    Now, as for the CTS-V2 system, LPE claims the following for their (well, ADM's) upgraded 2010+ Camaro system (essentially the CTS-V2 system):

    Two 190 lph at 58 psi/400 kPa fuel pumps in OE type primary fuel pump module

    The electronic pressure control version of the module flows (with jet pump to fill module and jet pump for fuel transfer functioning) 270 lph at 13.5 vdc/58 psi and 335 lph at 14.8 vdc/58 psi.

    At 13.5 volts supports 750 to 900 hp depending on engine efficiency (BSFC). At 14.8 volts supports 850 to 1000 hp depending on engine efficiency.
    Like you stated, it would be interesting to get the part # off the ZR1 pumps. It's very possible the CTS-V2 and the ZR1 utilize the same pumps, thus only difference between the relief valve change. However, I could be way off base.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by RWTD View Post
    ...Installing say shorty (LS3/LSA/LS9 length) Siemens 60# injectors (which flows approx. 72# on a GM at 58 psi), would give a bunch more headroom, but ultimately we'll need to watch the duty cycle on the pumps to ensure that they aren't also at their max (depending on your power level)...

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    Good stuff and I was just starting down this fueling path as I'm crossing that barrier to 600-650 RWHP, calculating injector tables and pressures for a couple of injector and pump types. I will check on the ZR1 specific part numbers to include the pump, relieve valve and controller.
    Let us know what you find out. This could be a nice fix. Lonnies performance just PM'd me saying that the pumps can handle 600 rwhp, but the lines can not.... I'll be calling them in an hr to discuss with them....

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    It's being faxed over now. I have 3 different part numbers for the ZR1 pump/module kit for a couple of different engine codes and will start some research to narrow it down once I have it in front of me. So far I'm seeing prices under $400 with the level sensor.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    RWTD,
    Siemens part number FI114961 or 107-961? (Same thing) This is the 60 I've been looking at. It flows 85 lb/hr at 87 PSI. That with the ZR1 pump and control module would provide a ton of head room.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrumStix View Post
    It's being faxed over now. I have 3 different part numbers for the ZR1 module kit for a couple of different engine codes and will start some research to narrow it down once I have it in front of me. So far I'm seeing prices under $400 with the level sensor.
    Any chance that you could tell if the ZR-1 fuel pump is the same as the V2? I know its probably only sold as an assembly but maybe they can break it down further to see. My guess is the same pumps, with the change in regulator assembly and possibly fitment packaging if required.

    What is the stock fuel line size on the V?

    I remember with the turbo Buick (G.N.) the stock system was really inneficient (wiring was lacking and subsequent voltage drop), then came the hotwire kit, then people thought about fuel line size being an issue (changing from 3/8 to 1/2 line), then the double pumper came out (skeptical whether half the cars that are outfitted with it really benefit from it as it was a tuning nightmare-once the second pump kicks in the fuel pressure would spike up) . A lot of this was way overboard to begin with, a walbro 255 hotwired would easily power the car safely into the 10's (trust me that's what I run) and still not even close to running low on fuel pressure or maxing any duty cycle (85lb/hr injectors).

    Interesting thread to say the least.

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    Re: CTS-V2 Fuel System Warning - Important!

    Quote Originally Posted by Domsz06 View Post
    Let us know what you find out. This could be a nice fix. Lonnies performance just PM'd me saying that the pumps can handle 600 rwhp, but the lines can not.... I'll be calling them in an hr to discuss with them....
    Ask him is he knows the fuel line inside diameter size.

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