question about W4M tune and KPE intake.
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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, question about W4M tune and KPE intake. in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Title probably explained it. If I was running the W4M max tune(with a modified factory airbox and K&N) could I ...
  1. #1
    Ross L is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    Title probably explained it. If I was running the W4M max tune(with a modified factory airbox and K&N) could I add the KPE intake without issues? I guess Jesse is who I need to call but I thought I'd run it by yall first. That KPE deal is too much to resist
    Ross

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    RemoWilliams is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    You should be able to run a KPE intake with the max tune with out a problem. However, the tune would not be maximized for the KPE intake.

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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    I seem to recall that Jesse has a separate tune for intakes. I was hoping he'd be first to market with a plastic intake but when I last inquired about it, he'd decided not to do it. That's OK, still love ya Jesse!

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    CTSV4now is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    I read on another thread that Jesse will modify the tune if you have a local shop create a dyno run file that you would send to Jesse. I just wondered how much the KPE intake leaned things out and if the max tune was already borderline lean to begin with.

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    Umrswimr's Avatar
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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    Quote Originally Posted by CTSV4now View Post
    I read on another thread that Jesse will modify the tune if you have a local shop create a dyno run file that you would send to Jesse. I just wondered how much the KPE intake leaned things out and if the max tune was already borderline lean to begin with.
    I don't believe the intake can lean things out. The MAF reads the incoming airflow and applies fuel as necessary, per the map. A CAI merely improves the aiflow and lowers the IAT- both of which are measured variables that the computer can compensate for.

    Jesse- any comments on the max tune configuration?

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    wait4me's Avatar
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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    The intake HAS TO BE LEANING out fuel to make any gain over 6 hp on a stock car. IT HAS TO. The inlet isnt that bad of a restriction in stock form, therefore it CANT ADD HORSEPOWER beyond what the airflow gain was needed. In stock form, the gain you can get is only 6hp that is it. As your horsepower increases from mods, that level increases. Say at 600rwhp that gain is now 18hp. But at 488 it is only 6.

    You can test this VERY easiely.

    On the dyno, you do a baseline run. Engine hot, monitor all temp settings so you can match it exactly, same with air fuel ratios, and timing applied.
    Then you pull off ALL OF THE INTAKE. leaving just the maf and a straight 4inch tube to the throttlebody. That would be the BEST IT COULD POSSIBLY EVER BE at that point. 0 restriction.

    So when you do that, and you see it is 6hp, no matter what you do, you cant beat that...

    When i get back to the states, i will call air raid and order one of those that kpe is selling to "Test it" and set up the calibration to be compatible for my tunes for you guys.
    The plastic one i had setup looked almost identical but shut down that project as it was no better than any other ones, other than price. I could set up the whole thing for less than 250 dollars for you guys. But after the 0 gain over one or the other, i just left it at that..

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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    Another thing people arent understanding. A cold air intake really isnt a cold air intake, All of them are still pulling in hot air. ALL of them. As you are moving, then the air goes closer to ambient temp. The faster you go the close to ambient it gets. Unless it has an air conditioning compressor on it Even the ones that are blocking off the top are still pulling in the hot engine air at the bottom..

    Im working on a few things when i get back, ill post them up when im done testing.

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    Ross L is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    Thanx for the input. Look forward to the test results and the "few things" you're working on
    Ross

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    ItsJustMyCaddy is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by wait4me View Post
    The intake HAS TO BE LEANING out fuel to make any gain over 6 hp on a stock car. IT HAS TO. The inlet isnt that bad of a restriction in stock form, therefore it CANT ADD HORSEPOWER beyond what the airflow gain was needed. In stock form, the gain you can get is only 6hp that is it. As your horsepower increases from mods, that level increases. Say at 600rwhp that gain is now 18hp. But at 488 it is only 6.

    You can test this VERY easiely.

    On the dyno, you do a baseline run. Engine hot, monitor all temp settings so you can match it exactly, same with air fuel ratios, and timing applied.
    Then you pull off ALL OF THE INTAKE. leaving just the maf and a straight 4inch tube to the throttlebody. That would be the BEST IT COULD POSSIBLY EVER BE at that point. 0 restriction.

    So when you do that, and you see it is 6hp, no matter what you do, you cant beat that...

    When i get back to the states, i will call air raid and order one of those that kpe is selling to "Test it" and set up the calibration to be compatible for my tunes for you guys.
    The plastic one i had setup looked almost identical but shut down that project as it was no better than any other ones, other than price. I could set up the whole thing for less than 250 dollars for you guys. But after the 0 gain over one or the other, i just left it at that..
    Sounds like somebody is a little upset that they didn't sell 35 CAIs in one day! For the record, I didn't buy their unit because I thought I was going to gain 24 hp, it is just a very nice looking supplemental mod that was getting good feedback regarding quality, fitment,etc.Any testing you do with it will be appreciated, but you should kill the sour grapes routine.

    Ryan

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    Umrswimr's Avatar
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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    Quote Originally Posted by wait4me View Post
    The intake HAS TO BE LEANING out fuel to make any gain over 6 hp on a stock car. IT HAS TO. The inlet isnt that bad of a restriction in stock form, therefore it CANT ADD HORSEPOWER beyond what the airflow gain was needed. In stock form, the gain you can get is only 6hp that is it. As your horsepower increases from mods, that level increases. Say at 600rwhp that gain is now 18hp. But at 488 it is only 6.

    You can test this VERY easiely.

    On the dyno, you do a baseline run. Engine hot, monitor all temp settings so you can match it exactly, same with air fuel ratios, and timing applied.
    Then you pull off ALL OF THE INTAKE. leaving just the maf and a straight 4inch tube to the throttlebody. That would be the BEST IT COULD POSSIBLY EVER BE at that point. 0 restriction.

    So when you do that, and you see it is 6hp, no matter what you do, you cant beat that...

    When i get back to the states, i will call air raid and order one of those that kpe is selling to "Test it" and set up the calibration to be compatible for my tunes for you guys.
    The plastic one i had setup looked almost identical but shut down that project as it was no better than any other ones, other than price. I could set up the whole thing for less than 250 dollars for you guys. But after the 0 gain over one or the other, i just left it at that..
    How can an intake (or any other mod) lean out the AFR? AFR is computer controlled. More air = more fuel. The only way to lean out the system is to reprogram it or otherwise screw with the computer's fuel commands (ie, different injectors). Or am I missing something?

    Second- KPE posted a dyno chart showing the performance gaisn of their intake:



    Aside from outright deception, tuning, or dramatically different testing conditions, it seems like they disagree with your 6HP observations. Any thoughts on why the discrepency?

    Keep in mind- I'm not trying to flame or turn this into a pissing match.... There's some W4M bashing in other threads, but that wasn't me and this isn't one of those threads. You have more experience with these cars than I do, so I'm all ears.

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    Razorecko is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    Hey Jesse, do you think a ported ls2 tb w/ the kpe intake would be relatively safe to dyno on the stock programming w/out a tune ?

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    CTSV4now is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    It appears that the MAF is being moved a bit closer to the TB, which I why I suspected it may lean out the AFR. On a different vehicle, when I moved the MAF closer to the TB, it leaned it out considerably and needed to be retuned.

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    Umrswimr's Avatar
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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    Quote Originally Posted by CTSV4now View Post
    It appears that the MAF is being moved a bit closer to the TB, which I why I suspected it may lean out the AFR. On a different vehicle, when I moved the MAF closer to the TB, it leaned it out considerably and needed to be retuned.
    Any idea why that would happen?

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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    You are correct. MAF placement is very important on these cars. Moving it at all will make a change, The computer will hide it at regular driving as it will change ltrims and strims to make it back to 14.7, however, it uses those values to add or subtract at wot causing a change in air fuel. Im positive on this as i can replicate it on the dyno pretty easy by changing even the pitch.

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    Re: question about W4M tune and KPE intake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Umrswimr View Post
    How can an intake (or any other mod) lean out the AFR? AFR is computer controlled. More air = more fuel. The only way to lean out the system is to reprogram it or otherwise screw with the computer's fuel commands (ie, different injectors). Or am I missing something?

    Second- KPE posted a dyno chart showing the performance gaisn of their intake:



    Aside from outright deception, tuning, or dramatically different testing conditions, it seems like they disagree with your 6HP observations. Any thoughts on why the discrepency?

    Keep in mind- I'm not trying to flame or turn this into a pissing match.... There's some W4M bashing in other threads, but that wasn't me and this isn't one of those threads. You have more experience with these cars than I do, so I'm all ears.
    I'm no expert or pro-tuner just an enthusiast like the rest of us, but I'll give you my $0.02.

    First off, the AFR is only "controlled" in the way you described (More Air=More Fuel) in part throttle and cruising situations. The car goes into "open loop" and runs off a set of programmed parameters at WOT. These parameters stay somewhat the same (some tweaking from ST and LT fuel trim data feedback to the computer) in an untuned car, yet the assumed parameters are altered by mods, including most intake kits. The extent of the alterations will determine whether a re-tune is required. If everything was controllable by the computer in the way you say, you'd never have to get a tune on your car for any mods and you'd need at least a WB O2 sensor from the factory to even make that conceivable.

    I don't see a typical A/F graph on KPE's dyno graph, just a notation of -5.6 at the bottom. I'm not familiar with what that means on a Mustang Dyno graph, but a before/after A/F graph might shed some light (like I get on a Dynojet readout). Either way, I doubt KPE is trying to mislead anybody, it's likely just part of what results from their design (slightly leaner A/F) and a 24rwhp increase overall. Again, I'm speculating since I don't see the A/F data and that was Jesse's point in his post (it's a combination of better airflow AND a design that without tuning results in a leaner A/F).

    EDIT: I see Wait4Me responded before I finished typing my reply.

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