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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by LV_V So you're saying that with the M3 nor M5 you cannot start the car, put it ...
  1. #31
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    Re: Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by LV_V View Post
    So you're saying that with the M3 nor M5 you cannot start the car, put it into "drive", and take off without having to MANUALLY shift the car?

    Ok pal. Go back to sippin your German Juice

    (just messin with ya btw haha)
    No, that's not what I said at all. Yes there's a "park" of sorts and a "drive" of sorts,... and yes, you don't have to shift gears if you choose not to. Denying that or confirming that was never a part of my post. The point was the SMG and the DCT are technically referred to as having an "automated mode". Referring to them as "automatics" is technically wrong. No juice,... just a little exposure thru reading and listening to those who know. But again, we all knew what point the poster was making,... whether he used automatic or automated. Calm down!

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    Re: Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests

    Technically, any transmission that shifts by itself without driver control is an automatic, whether it be an "automated manual", a torque converter, or even a CVT. The BMW M5 has an automatic mode in the SMG, so technically it is an automatic, even if it is never used that way.

    Conversely, the BMW shifts far faster in SMG mode than the torque converter in the V can, because as a manual, that is what it was designed to do, unlike the Caddy. When I first walked into a Cadillac dealership in 2008 and asked to drive a manual, the salesperson said that all CTSs were manuals, because of the manual mode on the auto. I had to explain that I wanted to drive a car with three pedals and a true stick shift. I drove a first generation Smart car in Italy a few years ago, and that car had a terrible SMG, but it had no automatic function so it was still a manual, even with it's automated clutch and sequential shifter (I wish it was an automatic, because it was no fun as a manual).

    Clearly, the lines are becoming blurred when it comes to transmissions. I like the fact that Cadillac offers an excellent torque converter automatic for those who want one, and an equally terrific manual for those who want to shift for themselves. These transmissions excel at their primary missions, unlike SMGs and DSGs, which ultimately are compromises. None of the other manufacturers of supersedans offer these choices, and Cadillac should be applauded for offering the choice.

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    Re: Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests

    OK,... whatever you wanna say. But I just looked it up, and the distinction between an automatic transmission and an automated transmission is clear. It goes something like this,... the automatic transmission contains it's shifting brains and mechics internally, usually using varying levels of hydraulic and barometric pressure to determine shift points. An automated transmission is a spline based manual transmission that is fitted with an external component to automate manual shifting. Visit BMW's site and go to the tech section, there's a really good explanation distinquishing to the two approaches. There's also some good info on the two terminologies on AMG's site as well. As for the sale rep who told you that an automatic transmission fitted with paddles is a manual,... well you should go back to that dealership, find that rep and punch him dead in the face. For lying to you and for implying that you are that damn stupid. Oh and yeah, one more thing,... MSG technology is hardly a compromise. Their heritage is straight from Formula 1. If anything, the approach is the best of both of those worlds. If anything is a compromise, it's the existence of the torque converter. Not that there's anything wrong with wanting to have one, but it's very creation was borne out of an effort to compromise.

  4. #34
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    Re: Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests

    Earlier SMG's were most definitely a compromise. They compromised smoothness for performance. Early versions just didnt work as daily drivers, if you were use to and wanted smooth uneventful shifts in stop and go traffic, or just doddling around town. One argument is do you base the label 'automatic' on how its built mechanically, or do you judge it based on driver input? To the average person, an SMG can be either, depending on how you look at it.

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    Re: Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by concorso View Post
    Earlier SMG's were most definitely a compromise. They compromised smoothness for performance. Early versions just didnt work as daily drivers, if you were use to and wanted smooth uneventful shifts in stop and go traffic, or just doddling around town. One argument is do you base the label 'automatic' on how its built mechanically, or do you judge it based on driver input? To the average person, an SMG can be either, depending on how you look at it.
    Wrong,... compromises between what? I will agree however that earlier attempts to adapt race proven sequential shifting transmission systems for street and civilian use were clunky to say the least. You're absolutely right, they didn't work well for daily driving or in traffic. But sequential shifting technology was never a compromise. I ask again,... a compromise between what?

    Look,... 'automatic' and 'automated' are not interchangeable terms. They represent two distinctly different approaches to putting power to the ground at the right gear ratio and at the right moment. I think the main problem here is that we're confusing transmission types with shifting modes. Automatic vs manual speaks more to the type of transmission, where automated vs manual speaks more to a shifting mode. An automatic transmission may have a manual mode where the driver can select up and down shifts pretty much as he/she wishes, but having that ability doesn't change the type of box it is,... it's still an automatic box. An automatic transmission implies an automated mode by default. These days, it becoming more common to see manual transmissions married to external components enabling automated shifting modes. So yes,... the automatic label has more to do with the box itself, and the automated label has everything to do with shifting methods, regardless of transmission type.

    It's all a play on words I guess you could say, which is why I prefaced everything I said with the word 'technically'. I also began my post with acknowledging that while the use of 'automatic' in this context (SMG and DCT) was technically inaccurate,... still we all knew what the poster meant.

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    Re: Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by ericpd View Post
    Wrong,... compromises between what? I will agree however that earlier attempts to adapt race proven sequential shifting transmission systems for street and civilian use were clunky to say the least. You're absolutely right, they didn't work well for daily driving or in traffic. But sequential shifting technology was never a compromise. I ask again,... a compromise between what?
    The compromise is that you give up shift smoothness versus a well programmed automatic AND you give up a little control over getting power to the road versus a classic manual trans.
    Quote Originally Posted by ericpd View Post
    Look,... 'automatic' and 'automated' are not interchangeable terms. They represent two distinctly different approaches to putting power to the ground at the right gear ratio and at the right moment. I think the main problem here is that we're confusing transmission types with shifting modes. Automatic vs manual speaks more to the type of transmission, where automated vs manual speaks more to a shifting mode. An automatic transmission may have a manual mode where the driver can select up and down shifts pretty much as he/she wishes, but having that ability doesn't change the type of box it is,... it's still an automatic box. An automatic transmission implies an automated mode by default. These days, it becoming more common to see manual transmissions married to external components enabling automated shifting modes. So yes,... the automatic label has more to do with the box itself, and the automated label has everything to do with shifting methods, regardless of transmission type.

    It's all a play on words I guess you could say, which is why I prefaced everything I said with the word 'technically'. I also began my post with acknowledging that while the use of 'automatic' in this context (SMG and DCT) was technically inaccurate,... still we all knew what the poster meant.
    Look? lol... I must be missing something here. In his original post, marktanner didnt say it was an automatic. He said it (SMG) was technically a manual that has an automatic mode. Im still unsure where he's misusing the term 'automatic'?

    And like I said, to the average owner, an automated manual is still an automatic. It doesn't matter how it works mechanically, only that it can be driven without shifting. But yes, I agree its simply an argument about wording, or the improper use of.

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    Re: Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests

    Quote Originally Posted by concorso View Post
    The compromise is that you give up shift smoothness versus a well programmed automatic AND you give up a little control over getting power to the road versus a classic manual trans.
    Look? lol... I must be missing something here. In his original post, marktanner didnt say it was an automatic. He said it (SMG) was technically a manual that has an automatic mode. Im still unsure where he's misusing the term 'automatic'?
    So basically you're talking about compromises a buyer must make. I thought we were speaking of compromises in technology. I read that sequential shifting (SMG and DCT) as a technology was a compromise approach. Sorry. I guess you could look at a manual transmission having the ability to automate shifting for you as a compromise nestled between an aging and inefficient technology employing torque converters and planetary gearing schemes on the one end, and the longevity and efficient technology of spline based transmissions on the other end, especially from a buyers perspective. Particularly if that buyer is non-enthusiasts with absolutely no interest in performance. One attracts comfort, multitasking and laziness at a cost while the other attracts hands-on-input, performance and sport at a whole other set of costs. But most would look at this as a blending from the best of both worlds more than a compromise.

    Yes,... I read the quote the same way you did, which is why I responded that according to the industry, a more technically accurate way of stating his point would be, "...was technically a manual that has an automated mode". Like I said before, automated speaks to a mode of shifting and 'automatic' speaks to the type of transmission regardless of shifting modes made available to the box. Go look it up. There's plenty of stuff out there that'll prolly do a better job of explaining how the industry differentiates between the two than apparently I'm doing. To accuse marktanner of misusing terms is a bit of a stretch. No way am I attempting to scold anyone based on word use,... that's crazy! This is why I stressed the word 'technically' AND why I consistently stated that we all understood what the point was, and sense we all understood what the point was, all obligations of successful communication were met. Please,... let's not get hung up on word play and symmantics.

    Quote Originally Posted by concorso View Post
    And like I said, to the average owner, an automated manual is still an automatic. It doesn't matter how it works mechanically, only that it can be driven without shifting. But yes, I agree its simply an argument about wording, or the improper use of.
    Well that depends on how you define 'average'. Maybe you're right when considering the average automobile owner, but I'll guarantee you the average BMW M owner knows quite well the difference as does the average owner of ANY car employing this technology. Among car enthusiast, folks like us, I will further wager that 85% of us know the difference whether we have the technology in our cars or not.

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    Re: Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests

    Let's put all the semantics to rest, already. The important thing to note is that the SMG type of transmission, while theoretically being capable of being all things to all people, in practice has been unsatisfactory in many modes, and therefore ACTS like a compromise. While some of the latest "SMG" types from Ferrari and Lambo are getting to be pretty good, those manufacturers are starting to transition to DSG technology, as it shifts faster and smoother, with much more acceptable automatic (or automated) modes. Maserati improved their latest models by utilizing a torque converter instead of the SMG, to universal acclaim. SMG technology works great on the track, but-- let's face it-- these cars all live on the street. DSG looks to be the future of automated manuals. They can be quite good, and can even offer superior performance. And I still have no desire to drive a car so equipped, because for me it is just not as satisfying to drive as a traditional three pedal manual! Personal preference reigns, as long as we still have a choice.

  9. #39
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    Re: Motor Trend M5 vs CTS-V Performance Tests

    The V should have had auto. It is quicker than the best professional driver as the stats show!

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