"Tuning" the LSA?
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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, "Tuning" the LSA? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Hendricks Motorsports dynoed a couple of ZR1's ; with one of them, they were able to boost HP output by ...
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    HPCC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    "Tuning" the LSA?

    Hendricks Motorsports dynoed a couple of ZR1's; with one of them, they were able to boost HP output by around 7% through "tuning" (stock tune was pretty rich). Nowadays, is such fuel remapping still pretty much a serious hack or would it be routine for a competent tuner?

    If the LSA has similar "low hanging fruit," we're talking in the neighborhood of 590 HP at the crank without swapping a single part...

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    Jpjr is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    Quote Originally Posted by HPCC View Post
    Hendricks Motorsports dynoed a couple of ZR1's; with one of them, they were able to boost HP output by around 7% through "tuning" (stock tune was pretty rich). Nowadays, is such fuel remapping still pretty much a serious hack or would it be routine for a competent tuner?

    If the LSA has similar "low hanging fruit," we're talking in the neighborhood of 590 HP at the crank without swapping a single part...
    Although to each thier own, where is the upside of blowing your warranty for a barely noticeable 7% horsepower gain? Personally, I want my LSA pig rich. Forced induction means lots of air and the potential of running lean fast. Just my opinion.

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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    theres plenty left in the LSA....DAMHIK


    F

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    atdeneve is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpjr View Post
    Although to each thier own, where is the upside of blowing your warranty for a barely noticeable 7% horsepower gain? Personally, I want my LSA pig rich. Forced induction means lots of air and the potential of running lean fast. Just my opinion.
    At those levels of horsepower, an increase by 7% yields pretty healthy gains - from 556 hp to 595 hp for the LSA and from 638 hp to 683 hp for the LS9 (an increase of 39 hp and 45 hp, respectively). Not too shabby. I think I'd notice.

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    HPCC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    Yes, to each their own; all I want is a map as close to the ideal stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 as practical and of course within the tolerances of the engine management system's capabilities over the range of conditions I'm likely to encounter over the life of the car. I'm not looking for blowtorch lean, but too rich fouls plugs and leaches oil from the cylinder walls, not to mention how it affects mileage too. The way I see it, it's like calibrating my HDTV--I like knowing it's performing optimally and what I'm seeing is exactly what the cinematographer intended...

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    Jayrcr3 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    Didn't one of the engineers state in an article that they left 10% for the tuners? Then he said we know its there because we have done it.

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    330toSRT8 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    It'll take a while for me get bored with the stock HP. The SRT-8 I've been driving for the last three years feels pretty healthy still so the 2009 CTS-V must be pretty crazy with so much more HP and similar weight.

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    Jpjr is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    Quote Originally Posted by HPCC View Post
    Yes, to each their own; all I want is a map as close to the ideal stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 as practical and of course within the tolerances of the engine management system's capabilities over the range of conditions I'm likely to encounter over the life of the car. I'm not looking for blowtorch lean, but too rich fouls plugs and leaches oil from the cylinder walls, not to mention how it affects mileage too. The way I see it, it's like calibrating my HDTV--I like knowing it's performing optimally and what I'm seeing is exactly what the cinematographer intended...
    I don't think you are weighting these correctly.

    $20 a year for a set up plugs, plus a few extra gallons of gas, vs. detonation and blowing a forced induction motor that would probably cost $20k right now to replace and install aftermarket.

    No one in my experience has ever had a problem running a little rich.

    I'm not saying don't tune the car, just saying I would do a full blown pulley swap and tune after I had made sure any necessary supporting mods (most notably on the fuel delivery and cooling side) were in place first. This motor does have a TON of upside potential if the internals prove strong.

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    HPCC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that detonation would be bad under any circumstances.

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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    Reading this makes me wonder who will be the first to break the 600 HP mark. I was pretty happy with my current mods for about 1 month and now I am in the process of putting a super charger on. I for one can say that I don't know what the max HP/TQ I would be content with but I haven't hit it yet.

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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    If you are not driving in Saudi Arabia or Death Valley leaning it out a little is minimal risk, with less washing down of the cylinder walls. The engine will actually last longer with better compression if you carefully creep a little closer to stoich in many climates. I know I'd like to.

    So the real question is can it be tuned, and then later returned to stock tune without any bread crumbs left behind to tell what's been done?

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    RacerVX is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    I hope that we are discussing cruising AFRs here? Some poeple might get the wrong impression that 14.7:1 is a performance setting. Target AFR for peak power in NA engines is 12.8:1 and 11.8:1 in FI engines. Cylinder heads can alter this with material and mixture motion but not by more than .2-.3. It's also nice to have individual cylinder control as we do but we are not going to get anywhere near stoich under WOT.

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    gotapex is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    Quote Originally Posted by HPCC View Post
    Yes, to each their own; all I want is a map as close to the ideal stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1 as practical and of course within the tolerances of the engine management system's capabilities over the range of conditions I'm likely to encounter over the life of the car. I'm not looking for blowtorch lean, but too rich fouls plugs and leaches oil from the cylinder walls, not to mention how it affects mileage too. The way I see it, it's like calibrating my HDTV--I like knowing it's performing optimally and what I'm seeing is exactly what the cinematographer intended...

    Are you sure you'd want that? At 14.7:1 on a forced induction engine, you'd have to pull quite a bit of timing for survival. You'd end up losing more power than you gain at that a/f.

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    HPCC is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    So if 11.8 is optimal for an FI engine, that's what I'd want, plus a safety margin for hysteresis in the system.

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    Hogg is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: "Tuning" the LSA?

    A/F rtatio is only 1 part of the tuning process. Get a decnt a/f ratio (11.8 isnt the be all end all number) then you can start making real power by adding timing while leaving the a/f ratio alone. Increase timing until you get max power without knock. Dont use the old and archaeic method of tune til it knocks then back off. Loaded chassis dynos allow for proper cell by cell tuning.
    Any competent ECM tuner will be able to get 20hp frpm an LSA EASILY with 40-60 being possible. safely. Sensible tuning will not shorten the life of the engine. Engine tuning is only 1 part of ECM/TCM tuning as well.
    I really dont know about tuning on a new vehicle nowadays. Gm can tell if the ECM/TCM has been flashed. I dont see a Tech looking for a reflash ALL THE TIME, but I'm sure they will be looking if there are holes in the pistons, or repeatedly fragged drivetrains.
    I do know that folks are working on the new GM MDI scan/flash tool on tunes that GM wont be able to detect as non-GM. I am not into that sort of thing as it is INDEED illegal. If you tune it and it breaks, you should pay for it IMO. Which is why I question ECM/TCM tuning on fresh warrantiable vehicles.

    The problem with pumping up the LSA is its small single element air/water intercooler. It can be done of course, but you have to be careful.

    An expensive option would be to use the larger LS9 2.3L blower and its dual element air/water intercooler. You wouldnt have to spin the 2.3l blower as fast as you would the 1.9l blower to net the same boost level.

    GM Engineers do admit that the LS9's intercoolers will need to be adressed for much beyond the stock LS9 power levels. Water/meth injection can always be used for detonation supression.


    LSA 6.2
    9.1L1 CR
    Fuel shutoff 6200rpm
    1.9l blower
    single air/water intercooler
    forged crank
    nodular iron main bearing caps
    PM forged rods
    high silicon/high moly cast iron
    hypereutectic cast pistons
    556 hp@6100rpm
    551 lb/ft torque@3800rpm

    LS9 6.2
    9.1:1 CR
    Fuel shutoff 6600rpm
    2.3l blower
    dual air/water intercooler
    forged crak
    forged steel main bearing caps
    Forged Titanium rods
    forged pistons
    titanium intake valve
    stainless steel exhaust manifold
    638hp@6500rpm
    604 lb/ft torque@3800rpm

    both engines feature piston spray cooling

    Things are definitley heating up in the GM camp.

    peace
    Hog

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