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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Nurburgring 7:59.32 in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Does weight matter in a race? Think about SCCA “rewards”. Does 1 lap make a race other than at the ...
  1. #91
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Does weight matter in a race? Think about SCCA “rewards”. Does 1 lap make a race other than at the “Ring”? I think these answers are obvious but we likely won’t know the magnitude until the CTS VR races against the competition in the Speed GT World Challenge as a second generation V2 – hopefully next year. As I remember, the big advantage of the first generation VR was its balance and light weight. It didn’t have the fastest standing start (no AWD); it didn’t have the highest hp and fastest speed in the straight-aways; and it didn’t have much of a racing reputation at the beginning. But after 3 seasons it had more than its share of wins.

    So even though the results at the Ring are encouraging, the real test is yet to come.

  2. #92
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich H View Post
    Does weight matter in a race? Think about SCCA “rewards”. Does 1 lap make a race other than at the “Ring”? I think these answers are obvious but we likely won’t know the magnitude until the CTS VR races against the competition in the Speed GT World Challenge as a second generation V2 – hopefully next year. As I remember, the big advantage of the first generation VR was its balance and light weight. It didn’t have the fastest standing start (no AWD); it didn’t have the highest hp and fastest speed in the straight-aways; and it didn’t have much of a racing reputation at the beginning. But after 3 seasons it had more than its share of wins.

    So even though the results at the Ring are encouraging, the real test is yet to come.
    The racecar version really is not comparable to the street version. The great ring time speaks highly about the car's combination of handling and power. As many of you know from time spent on the track, high hp cars that either have inadequate brakes, tires, driver ability, or poor handling are track bait for a well set-up Miata or Lotus Elise with a good driver. 7:59 speaks for itself. You can safely say that none of us on this board will approach 7:59, but it just points out that despite the cars heft, it must handle and brake pretty well. I think we can take the power for granted after seeing what the LS9 dynoed at. I'm sure the V2 will smoke my E55 that has about 12 track days on it with race pads, Hoosier slicks on wider front rims, full brake ducting and hp upgrades. My Z06 track car is much more fun. I don't plan on taking this V on the track more than once to see how it fares, because I don't want to beat on it too much since it is going to be my wife's car. September can't come soon enough.

  3. #93
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    The times clocked at 'The Ring' are helpful, and great for Internet fights and its bullies & trolls, but you need to consider the following, most have already been pointed out:

    1) tires, not sure what the V2 ran on, not even sure what OE tires are, as may care one day when I buy one, but I believe Porsche always runs the Pilot Sport Cups, which are great for the track (once warm), but lousy for a DD, if you have the particulars for each run post them to remove the whatifs
    2) drivers, those dudes posting the times are great, you and I are amateurs (except for the Summit Point gang!!!), you will not optimize the performance of any Supercar (yeah, the V2 {and V1} are supercars 'cause I said so), you will be somewhere well north of those numbers on a track day, as too much performance may prove to be a detrement to those with minimal skills, we have all seen the Enzo crash photos in Socal
    3) specs, such as octane, tires, brakes, pads, weight, pre-production, mule, total runs, track temps/conditions, etc... I am certain the C6Z time posted was on OE runcraps, a run with PS2s or Sport Cups would have yielded a lower time of 6,8 or 10secs,,, all things, except the sale price of the GTR in the first year can be manipulated to a degree

    Great thread though, Caddy dominates, not bad for a manufacturer who five years ago had no claims to the World of Racing. I enjoy the haters, as they are the reason my staunch Cadillac loyalty grows, and as far as modifying the V2 powerplant, it will happen, do not think a warranty will keep all owners in check. Caddy rocks, always the first, not always the best (hard to be such when you are a groundbreaker), but we come back with a vengeance.

    And lastly, that GTR better be damn good, as it is mofugly, is not a sedan, cannot carry golf clubs or four strippers to a Bachelor Party, and takes a long time to cross the Pacific should you custom-order it. It will not sell for under $90K for the first 12 months-For $90K, here is the ticket:

    1) '08 C6Z, deals can be had at $10K under MSRP, or find some poor soul in the mortgage/real estate biz (like me) and get an '07 for about $55-60K
    2) Sell the LS7, Go with C5R block
    3) TT the mutha, good for 16psi and great street manners
    4) Clutch/flywheel, full exhaust, upgrade rear, half-shafts, etc...
    5) Go out to All You Can Eat Sushi Bar, and pay homeage to only Japanese Import you give your dollars to.

    Should anyone opt for the outrageously stickered + unjustified mark-up of the GTR, bring it by, I would like a few minutes with it to see if it is all that, thanks in advance.

    Urb, check your PMs, as I sent you the application for a moderator for the GTR Forum,,,

  4. #94
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    I really have to laugh at this endless bullshit of posts on every board from here to the Kia forums, comparing the CTS-V2 to the GTR. Especially when 99.9% of the posts are made by 20 something Fanboys with neither the means to own one, nor the skill to drive one anywhere near the "unofficial" times set by pro racers. I would hazzard a guess that either car in the hands Johnny fanboy at the ring would either :
    A: Possibly break 10 mins around the track
    B: Possibly break in half after flying off the track into a tree

    Let me preface the following with the fact the I had a modded 1990 300ZX nissan TT ( 400whp ), and I think the GTR is weapon of a vehicle for what is was designed to do( eat far more expensive cars at the race track)

    GTR Vs V2 Facts:
    1. These cars do not compete in any way shape or form
    2. The GTR will be faster 0-60 and around a track without question
    3. The V will absolutely crush a GTR from a 10mph roll all the way to 130+ - I guarantee it!
    4. The V2 is a far more luxourious car
    5. The v will be cheaper
    6. The V will be more readily modded - Forged 454 LSX + LS9 blower = 900whp all day long
    7. No woman of any quality screws a nissan driver, ask one.

    Lastly I have no idea when an inconsistenly recorded, unofficial set of lap times, set on different times, days, years, by different drivers became the end all and be all of bench racing. I really wish people would just shut the fawk up, and give gredit to the companies and engineers who continue to have the balls to make cars like these when all business logic tells them otherwise. I will enjoy this "end of days" of the performance cars, because I really think 10 years from now we will remember these times for the awesome cars we used to have available, and not how fast around a track they were

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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    SV,
    Good post.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthViggen View Post
    7. No woman of any quality screws a nissan driver, ask one.
    Don't know about you guys, but this one kinda kills the GTR deal for me!

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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Quote Originally Posted by figgie View Post
    Can we say Supra here?
    No, you can't. The Supra came from the factory with a motor able to handle 800+hp without breaking a sweat....forged everything. The CTS-V doesn't.

  7. #97
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Quote Originally Posted by verbs View Post
    No, you can't. The Supra came from the factory with a motor able to handle 800+hp without breaking a sweat....forged everything. The CTS-V doesn't.
    So what?

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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    There is a reason the Ring is very important number wise. Out of all of the tracks in the world, the ring has proven to be the best test bed for a performancce vehicle. The reason is because it has the best mix of all driving conditions. Up hill turns, downhill turns, level turns, a good mix of long straightaways and because of its length it gives cars time to shine.

    If the GTR ran the times it did with the same kind of start that other manufacturers use it will prove that AWD is extremely important. The car weighs a lot more than a Z06 and has less HP and torque and it destroyed the Z06 times. The only thing that can account for that is the AWD. I did not think AWD could mean that much, but it is either that or the GTR numbers are bogus. Find it funny that they picked up almost 10 seconds from the last time they tested with the same car. Funny that after 60mph that the Z06 is faster than the GTR but the Z still got its azz handed to it at the ring by the GTR.

    1) tires, not sure what the V2 ran on, not even sure what OE tires are, as may care one day when I buy one, but I believe Porsche always runs the Pilot Sport Cups, which are great for the track (once warm), but lousy for a DD, if you have the particulars for each run post them to remove the whatifs
    Says it was run in showroom trim including tires.

    2) drivers, those dudes posting the times are great, you and I are amateurs (except for the Summit Point gang!!!), you will not optimize the performance of any Supercar (yeah, the V2 {and V1} are supercars 'cause I said so), you will be somewhere well north of those numbers on a track day, as too much performance may prove to be a detrement to those with minimal skills, we have all seen the Enzo crash photos in Socal
    Umm, I think that is obvious. That is why magazines use professional drivers times and not yours. Their numbers are a lot more consistent.

    [QUOTE3) specs, such as octane, tires, brakes, pads, weight, pre-production, mule, total runs, track temps/conditions, etc... I am certain the C6Z time posted was on OE runcraps, a run with PS2s or Sport Cups would have yielded a lower time of 6,8 or 10secs,,, all things, except the sale price of the GTR in the first year can be manipulated to a degree

    ][/QUOTE]

    GM said on the C6 Z06 if they use the PS2's it would have bettered the Z06's times by 2 seconds. I beleive the ZR1's are getting PS2's.


    1. These cars do not compete in any way shape or form
    I think you are seriously wrong if you think 2 fast performance vehicles in the same price range do not compete. I am sure if I was thinking of 1 of the 2, i would seriously consider both.

    2. The GTR will be faster 0-60 and around a track without question
    Not hard to determine when you see the V ran the ring in 7.59 and the GTR did a 7.29

    3. The V will absolutely crush a GTR from a 10mph roll all the way to 130+ - I guarantee it!
    First you cannot guarantee this, and who races anything from a 10mph roll?

    4. The V2 is a far more luxourious car
    I would hope so since its the only one in the comparison that is a luxury sedan.

    5. The v will be cheaper
    First you cannot hold it against a car if it is so in demand it brings a premium under sticker. Then the argument can be made later that the GTR is cheaper because I am sure it will have a better resale value than a Gm product ( I almost exclusively buy GM so don't go there, I know)

    6. The V will be more readily modded - Forged 454 LSX + LS9 blower = 900whp all day long
    And you think the GM driveline in the 4300lb V will be able to handle additional torque?

    7. No woman of any quality screws a nissan driver, ask one.
    Women who screw a car with a nice car do it for a car that is in style. The GTR will be more recognizable to stupid trailer whores. Personally i think the car is ugly, but chicks just think the V is a CTS entry level caddy.

    So does this mean the 2009 V is the fastest sedan of all time? That's the impression I'm getting.... 05-11-08 12:09 PM
    yes

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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Quote Originally Posted by GNSCOTT View Post
    There is a reason the Ring is very important number wise. Out of all of the tracks in the world, the ring has proven to be the best test bed for a performancce vehicle. The reason is because it has the best mix of all driving conditions. Up hill turns, downhill turns, level turns, a good mix of long straightaways and because of its length it gives cars time to shine.
    The Ring IS the best track to test any car's overall limiting capabilities - and the V should do well on it - after all the car was designed, tuned, and tested on this track. However, a single lap around this track won't give you insights into other important variables that are needed to be successful in long term performance required for racing, such as:
    • component durability and failure rates that would be more evident in a longer race
    • all important tire wear rate which is directly proportional to vehicle mass and usually spells the demise of most cars on the track
    • the "driver" factor which obviously is all important for a single car entry for a single timed lap
    • and track conditions that should be averaged out on different days with different weather condition
    There are just too many variables that come into play to stake a car's reputation on a single timed lap. Hence, we should look forward to seeing how a "slightly" modified version of the V2 does in the World Challenge on many tracks with many drivers in many laps at many driving conditions.

  10. #100
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Best list I could find for times at 'The Ring':

    http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?vie...ID=0&tID=10073


    GTR has a listing of 7:55, the variables need to be considered, as times do not give all the specifics.

    Whether you like the arena or not, you have to admit that the V2 has earned it stripes!!!, as has the GTR.

  11. #101
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    -The Ring makes a good overall benchmark. The news got me pumped and put the V@ back at the top of the list.

    -The GTR interior looks like a race car. I've never seen an interior that looked so much like it missed the design studio completely. It's funny (and great!) that on gen 2 the interior becomes a plus instead of a minus. Motor Trend's article on the GTR does a great job of explaining why its numbers are so great, and why it falls behind the competition at 100+ mph.

    -I'm not as excited with my 06 V as I once was, and I'm tired of the wife complaining about the stick. Was looking to find someone to take over the lease and considering an 05 e55, or a new 335i and getting the $2000 warrantied Dinan mod which adds about 60hp to the already underated engine. Even new M3, C63, S5 if the lease was low enough (my only option). I think I may just wait it out for the new V. I know that if I got one of these other cars, when the new V came out I would just be wanting one. This news sure helps to keep me from jumping ship before GM can sell me another car.

  12. #102
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Neither the CTS-V or the GT-R are racecars and will fail if pushed hard for any length of time on the track.

    Main point of the sub 8 minute laptime-the CTS-V will be great in the performance (power/handling/braking) department. My only concern is what will prove to be its weak points. Will it creak and rattle like so many American cars do? Will the supercharger break like my AMG did three times? Will it have valvetrain or driveline issues like previous GM performance products (Z06, V1 and others)? Will it really be a world class performance sedan or will it disappoint and be a second-tier player?

    The LSA is a torque-master and I do believe it will be the sedan leader for 50-100 mph times (as was the E55) and will beat the GT-R from a rolling start.

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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Some points after reading this whole thread...
    1. Comparing the V2 to the GTR is a compliment to the V
    2. Why in the hell does anybody compare it is beyond me.
    3. If we are going to compare the GTR to the V then we need to compare it to the 911tt. That was the GTRs benchmark, Nissan stated that.
    4. Regarding the V2s weight. All of its competition is within 100-150lbs. So why is there no reference to the M5 being a pig or a E63 or even the tiny RS4 at nearly 4000lbs. Is the new V heavy yes but not out of class.
    5. Holly crap here we are on a CADILLAC forum and we get a 7:59 ring time and there is still bashing. I just don't get it.
    6. No wheel hop and a iron diff with 550+lbs of torque yipee.

    Just had to get this off my chest. I love cars and love competition thats what make us better.

  14. #104
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Quote Originally Posted by GNSCOTT View Post
    There is a reason the Ring is very important number wise. Out of all of the tracks in the world, the ring has proven to be the best test bed for a performancce vehicle. The reason is because it has the best mix of all driving conditions. Up hill turns, downhill turns, level turns, a good mix of long straightaways and because of its length it gives cars time to shine.

    I was not questioning the validity of the ring's value as a proving ground. I was commenting on the fact that the manufacturer's time postings have little to no comparative value, once all the variables (weather, driver, season, temp, track condition, tires, wind, etc)have been accounted for. Nissan's own "official" rings times were 10 seconds apart between "official" runs. Nissan engineers have been pounding that thing on the ring for several years now, and they still had a 10 second disparity.


    I think you are seriously wrong if you think 2 fast performance vehicles in the same price range do not compete. I am sure if I was thinking of 1 of the 2, i would seriously consider both.
    And I think you seriously need to give your head a shake if you think the 2 primary factors that determines a model's competition are speed and price. Is a CL65 AMG competition for a Ferrari 430? They are about the same price, both fast, and hell they even have the same number of doors! Must be direct competition worthy of endless comparison and speculation by Grand Turismo obsessed internet fanboys(Secretly I am a GT5 obsessed fan-man), but hide it well). This comment alone tells me you are probably not older 25. Find me one auto publication, anywhere, that has seriously compared a coupe vs a sedan, except to prove the sedan was exceptional performance, not function. Comparison by it's nature is function of it's intended purpose, and in this case these two cars purposes, or reason for being if you will, are entirely different.


    Not hard to determine when you see the V ran the ring in 7.59 and the GTR did a 7.29
    Are you serious? My point here is that the PURPOSE of of the GTR is a Track/street fighter, where as that is certainly NOT the CTS-V's purpose.

    First you cannot guarantee this, and who races anything from a 10mph roll?
    Again, your seriousnous is being called into question. The inference here was to the GTR having superior launching capabilities due to the crazy ass AWD technology. If the v2 doesn't run at least 5 seconds faster from 60-160 I will eat my words. By the way, lots of people run from rolls. I'd also like to know how many easter egg 3.3 second 0-60 launches the clutch(s) will take in a GTR before it's toast. In a 430 ferrari it is about 7 -10.

    I would hope so since its the only one in the comparison that is a luxury sedan.
    Point here being that the V2 has a very high end interior, FINALLY befitting it's competition, being of course other luxury sedans. See you undestand purpose of competition here!

    First you cannot hold it against a car if it is so in demand it brings a premium under sticker. Then the argument can be made later that the GTR is cheaper because I am sure it will have a better resale value than a Gm product ( I almost exclusively buy GM so don't go there, I know)
    I am talking the price one would pay to purchase either or at a dealer if both were available today. If the basis of your valuation is resale, then wouldn't the depreciation of a GM, still continue to make it cheaper on the secondary market? I am not talking about it's investment returns or imparted value as both would be depreciating assets.

    And you think the GM driveline in the 4300lb V will be able to handle additional torque?
    Well to that all I can say is I hope so. Couple of things to remember, GM put alot of faith in the Gen 2 CTS to finally be a world competing product. They also designed it with the V2 from the drawing table, rather than an after thought like the V1. They will have been very fool hardy to not have corrected the numberone complaint of the current V owning Demo.

    Women who screw a car with a nice car do it for a car that is in style. The GTR will be more recognizable to stupid trailer whores. Personally i think the car is ugly, but chicks just think the V is a CTS entry level caddy.
    Women who screw cars have bigger problems that what type they screw. I jest. Note I said "quality woman", meaning not someone who will take a boy racer, nissan driving man seriously. 99.99% of women will have no way of seperating the term "nissan", from "altima" or "sentra" in their heads. Probably because quality women are not surfing web forums looking for the newest bench stat to argue about. Not Saying they will screw a guy because he is driving a Cadillac, but it certainly won't make her think housewife grocery getter.


    My whole point is that both cars are e'ffing fantastic! Seriously the tops of their individual games, and classes. I actually have huge desire to own one of these 2( and possibly 2-3 other cars). I will have to make my decision in the next 12 monthes or so when I decide it's time for a new ride. The great thing about these ring stat's being published, is once I decide on the main PURPOSE of my new car, it helps me know what potentially is the best performing one. Then like anyone serious about owning a car, I will find the nearest one, drive it, fall in love with it, and when the bank tells me they will loan me the money, I will buy it. That's something you can't do on the internet!

  15. #105
    verbs is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Nurburgring 7:59.32

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    So what?
    I don't care one way or another that it's not a Supra but to say it is is asnine.

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