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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing??? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; First of all, this car is an M3 competitor in price only. It's much more comparable to the M5 and ...
  1. #16
    HushH is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    First of all, this car is an M3 competitor in price only. It's much more comparable to the M5 and E63 as Tony has already pointed out.

    Secondly, how do you figure the M3 is going to be better performing? I think I'll wait to see the official specs on the V2 before I just concede that.

    Finally, have you seen the price of a fully optioned M3? Although we don't have anything official, all indications are that the V2 will come in at or below that price.

  2. #17
    Heli411 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    I would be satisfied if OTD the V2 came in at $70K (Fully Loaded) or less... $65K would be better of course.

    The problem is: the public has a perception that German = Quality and Status
    So... they are willing to pay the big bucks. Tony is right, load up an M3 and you easily reach $70K. The M5 would be more comparable to the V2 and they are going used for $70K-$80K (2007,2008)

    BMW's are good automobiles... but if you pay close attention to consumer reviews, not without problems. Like the fuel pump issue on the 335i and the engine overheating on the 335i, etc. etc.

  3. #18
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Or the monstrosity that is iDrive.

    I had a customer trade his M6 recently after he got sick of second gear grinding every other time he shifted. Apparently it's a widespread issue on the M6s, even to the point where he could be sitting still, hold the clutch to the floor and grind second gear.

    I think BMW and MB make some impressive cars, but the public perception of their supposedly infallible quality is grossly overblown. Factor in the ridiculous option structure and pricing, and I just don't see the appeal.
    Tony Pagano
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    The views and opinions of this poster are solely his own and do not represent those of Plaza Cadillac

  4. #19
    Jpjr is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    Or the monstrosity that is iDrive.

    I had a customer trade his M6 recently after he got sick of second gear grinding every other time he shifted. Apparently it's a widespread issue on the M6s, even to the point where he could be sitting still, hold the clutch to the floor and grind second gear.

    I think BMW and MB make some impressive cars, but the public perception of their supposedly infallible quality is grossly overblown. Factor in the ridiculous option structure and pricing, and I just don't see the appeal.
    Playing devils advocate, (adding that I have only owned American cars and will continue to do so), have you ever driven one? I mean more than around the block. The M3 is by far the biggest rush I have ever gotten out of an every-day production sedan. It carves corners and redlines sky high. It is significanlty more responsive than the Vette or Caddy I own. Will it outrun either? Absolutely not. But for every day driving it is a lot of fun.

    From a quality perspective, I think the arguments are similar to democrat/republican. The American buyers will argue that perception is too low for thier cars and too high for foreign cars. The foreign buyers will argue just the opposite. The truth is that buying a car is a major purchase and people will go to great lengths to depend their preference in order to feel like they got a good deal.

    Back to the Caddy pricing, I 100% AGREE that the V should be a competitor to the M5. It feels like an M5 in size, weight, and performance. However, back to reality, the M5 cusotmer base is incredibly small. How many sales does Caddy expect to gain from an already tiny buying base? The target needs to be $60k-ish M3 drivers. That is where the customers are. Again separating emotion from judgement, this is where they need to compete for supremacy.

  5. #20
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    There's a lot more people than just BMW/MB buyers that are prospects for the new V.

    -Corvette owners who want a nicer ride or need more trunk/backseat
    -CTS owners who want to step up to the top performance model
    -M3 owners who want more room and luxury
    -M5 owners who can get the same room and better performance for $30k less
    -Ditto for E63 buyers
    ....and many others who might be buying a car in this class for the first time.

    As someone who has owned several of them, I can tell you that high revving, corner carving machines are fun on the occasional track day or back road jaunt, but feel flat in everyday driving- you can't take off from every red light at 5,000rpm, nor can you drive around town shifting at 8,000. A car like the CTS-V or M5 is great because of its dual personality: Driven easy, it's a large, roomy, comfortable luxury car, and there's plenty of torque at low RPM to shoot around a slow car without every cop in two miles hearing you redline it.

    My point is that they're still incredibly capable at the limit on those rare occasions, but also useable and fun in "normal" driving, which is what most of us do 90% of the time. Comparing peak Gs and lap times sells magazines and gives people bragging rights, but most people will never get close to the limits of a car's capabilities, so why buy a car that only impresses when pushed hard?
    Tony Pagano
    Plaza Cadillac
    Leesburg, FL
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    www.cadillactony.com



    The views and opinions of this poster are solely his own and do not represent those of Plaza Cadillac

  6. #21
    Jpjr is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    There's a lot more people than just BMW/MB buyers that are prospects for the new V.

    -Corvette owners who want a nicer ride or need more trunk/backseat
    -CTS owners who want to step up to the top performance model
    -M3 owners who want more room and luxury
    -M5 owners who can get the same room and better performance for $30k less
    -Ditto for E63 buyers
    ....and many others who might be buying a car in this class for the first time.

    As someone who has owned several of them, I can tell you that high revving, corner carving machines are fun on the occasional track day or back road jaunt, but feel flat in everyday driving- you can't take off from every red light at 5,000rpm, nor can you drive around town shifting at 8,000. A car like the CTS-V or M5 is great because of its dual personality: Driven easy, it's a large, roomy, comfortable luxury car, and there's plenty of torque at low RPM to shoot around a slow car without every cop in two miles hearing you redline it.

    My point is that they're still incredibly capable at the limit on those rare occasions, but also useable and fun in "normal" driving, which is what most of us do 90% of the time. Comparing peak Gs and lap times sells magazines and gives people bragging rights, but most people will never get close to the limits of a car's capabilities, so why buy a car that only impresses when pushed hard?

    You don't pay up $20-25k from a base CTS without supreme performance in mind. That argument may have held true for the V1, but even the owner of the dealership I work with has said twice now that he expects very few CTS buyers to 1) want 550hp and half the gas mileage, and 2) want it bad enough to pay up 20k+ while sacrificing comfort for performance.

    I used the M5 as an example, but the same applies to the Merc.

    Also, I think the argument that a BMW is not comfortable to drive day-to-day is also a car mag argument and not the truth. I am extremely comfortable riding in the half dozen M3's or the M5 that sit out in our employee parking lot. I think the comfort argument you are making is much more differentiated in the DTS, Town Car, black cab segment and not in performance luxary sedans.

  7. #22
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    ... As someone who has owned several of them, I can tell you that high revving, corner carving machines are fun on the occasional track day or back road jaunt, but feel flat in everyday driving- you can't take off from every red light at 5,000rpm, nor can you drive around town shifting at 8,000. A car like the CTS-V or M5 is great because of its dual personality: Driven easy, it's a large, roomy, comfortable luxury car, and there's plenty of torque at low RPM to shoot around a slow car without every cop in two miles hearing you redline it.

    My point is that they're still incredibly capable at the limit on those rare occasions, but also useable and fun in "normal" driving, which is what most of us do 90% of the time. Comparing peak Gs and lap times sells magazines and gives people bragging rights, but most people will never get close to the limits of a car's capabilities, so why buy a car that only impresses when pushed hard?
    Tony speaks the truth here. Anybody who's driven a car with a smaller-displacement (i.e. ~3L or less), high-revving motor can't argue with this one whit unless we're talkin' < ~3,000 lbs.
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  8. #23
    Cadillac Tony's Avatar
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpjr View Post
    Also, I think the argument that a BMW is not comfortable to drive day-to-day is also a car mag argument and not the truth. I am extremely comfortable riding in the half dozen M3's or the M5 that sit out in our employee parking lot. I think the comfort argument you are making is much more differentiated in the DTS, Town Car, black cab segment and not in performance luxary sedans.
    I didn't say the BMW was uncomfortable, just that the Cadillac had more luxury and comfort. I don't think anyone will argue that point.
    Tony Pagano
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    www.cadillactony.com



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  9. #24
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    People who want a bigger car than an M3 will not consider the M3. Those that want an M3 size performance car will consider the CTS-V. Although good looking, the MB E platform is old already, as is the 5 series platform which in my opinion is not beautiful. The CTS-V has it all-beautiful original lines, the high torque needed for everyday spirited driving, good brakes, and good handling. If what we hear about the "Ring-tuned suspension" is true, it should be able hold its own on the track.

  10. #25
    Jpjr is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    I didn't say the BMW was uncomfortable, just that the Cadillac had more luxury and comfort. I don't think anyone will argue that point.
    I will not argue the point.

    But do people pay up an extra $20k from a base CTS, E, or 330 for a little more luxary and comfort? Seems like a performance decision to me, which is why we can't get around the comparisons.

    Granted, if you want an extra set of golf clubs in your trunk and don't want to pay up for an M5 then the decision is a no brainer.

  11. #26
    mgscustomtune is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    I will just wait a year and save $$$$$$$$$$$ on a used one.

  12. #27
    GNSCOTT is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Quote Originally Posted by OldRoadDawg View Post
    Let me see if I have this correct.

    You are in Florida, and you just put down a deposit for a 2009 CTS-V @ MSRP and want to know if dealers are being reasonable on pricing . . . and - you are new to the forum.

    Yet right next to your new thread is a longtime forum member's thread, and that member is a salesman at a Cadillac dealer in Florida, and the thread is titled Order your CTS-V below MSRP.

    In that thread he is offering pricing to forum members for a 2009 CTS-V at $599.99 below MSRP.

    It would seem to me that had you looked through the forum first, and then contacted Tony you would have saved $599.99 and obtained the services of an extremely knowledgeable salesman and CTS-V devotee in the process.

    But I probably sound sarcastic (my wife always tells me that) and it will be until at least 2011 before I can move up to the Gen II V, so I'm a little jealous too.

    I'm going back to the 2004 - 2007 V forum now.
    Florida is a big state. He can burn that $600 up if he has to drive a couple hours out of his way. Personally I willl wait a couple months and get one at $6k under msrp at just about any dealership. Caddy does not sell a lot of $70k cars.

  13. #28
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Quote Originally Posted by GNSCOTT View Post
    Florida is a big state. He can burn that $600 up if he has to drive a couple hours out of his way. Personally I willl wait a couple months and get one at $6k under msrp at just about any dealership. Caddy does not sell a lot of $70k cars.
    You're forgetting the extra benefits he'd get from Tony. I'm sure Tony would be willing to come around and Zaino it for you and I'll bet he could stop those monthly spells that your wife and daughter have been having.
    Don't mess with Binky Bear!


  14. #29
    Cadillac Tony's Avatar
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Hey now, Koz- I'm a good Salesman, but I'm no miracle worker.
    Tony Pagano
    Plaza Cadillac
    Leesburg, FL
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  15. #30
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    Re: Who has already reserve 2009 and what pricing???

    Quote Originally Posted by mgscustomtune View Post
    I will just wait a year and save $$$$$$$$$$$ on a used one.
    Now THAT should be a no-brainer.

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