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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, 2009 Price vs. M3\C63??? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony Ah, I see- the ole' "misunderstanding". Here's what I posted: What I meant was that ...
  1. #76
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    Ah, I see- the ole' "misunderstanding". Here's what I posted:



    What I meant was that German car buyers pay a fortune for an AMG model, then pay extra to get the AMG appearance package that should be included- hence, "rolling over and taking it".

    Read that again and you'll see I wasn't suggesting that anyone should just accept Cadillac's options, but rather that they get it in the rear from MB and BMW on their pricing structure.
    Nobody ever accused me of being the sharpest pencil in the box, and I understood that completely ... the first time.
    '05 CTS-V, Maggie, Kooks, Hotchkis, Ground Control, Corsa, B&M, DSS/Hendrix, Full 3M Clear Bra, Autovation, V Headrests, CTS Console, STS-V 55w Fogs, Black Vette FRCs, Specter Werkes, Katech LS9 Clutch, SS Brake Lines, Heavymetals U-Turn Fuel Line Eliminator, Momo Combat Evo Shift Knob, Wldwhl Clear Sidemarkers, Linea Corse LC855 Wheels or OEM wheels w/'06-'07 Center Caps, plus a couple more. 472 RWHP/411 RWTQ (Mustang Dyno).

  2. #77
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    thanks CT

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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    Ah, I see- the ole' "misunderstanding". Here's what I posted:



    What I meant was that German car buyers pay a fortune for an AMG model, then pay extra to get the AMG appearance package that should be included- hence, "rolling over and taking it".

    Read that again and you'll see I wasn't suggesting that anyone should just accept Cadillac's options, but rather that they get it in the rear from MB and BMW on their pricing structure.
    Don't tell me GM doesn't do the same thing!

    So when someone walks in and says I would like 17" wheels, not 16" on my CTS what do you tell them? "You want our faux pas model".

    "Wheel Sport Appearance Pkg.
    3.6

    $3,600

    $3,366
    Wheel Performance Pkg. plus chrome mesh grille, rear spoiler, unique exterior trim. NA w/California Pkg."

    http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/cadil...84/page-2.html

    Norm

  4. #79
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV View Post
    Don't tell me GM doesn't do the same thing!

    So when someone walks in and says I would like 17" wheels, not 16" on my CTS what do you tell them? "You want our faux pas model".

    "Wheel Sport Appearance Pkg.
    3.6

    $3,600

    $3,366
    Wheel Performance Pkg. plus chrome mesh grille, rear spoiler, unique exterior trim. NA w/California Pkg."

    http://www.who-sells-it.com/cy/cadil...84/page-2.html

    Norm
    Wow, you just can't read, can you? Tony wasn't denying that. If you actually read his post, he was talking about paying for an AMG appearance package ON AN AMG CAR!!!

    C'mon McFly, think!

  5. #80
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Every manufacturer offers an upgraded appearance package in some form, be it bigger wheels, a spoiler, body colored trim pieces, etc, but the car is still just a "regular" model. There's nothing wrong with Nissan, Mercedes, Honda or Cadillac offering the option to soup up the appearance of your new car a little without jumping up to the hard-core performance model, but to continue to charge extra for the appearance even on the performance model is just gouging the customer.

    Seriously man- a $21,000 Civic Si (only $2,290 more expensive than the Civic EX) includes a different fascia, rear wing, shit knob and boot, racing seats, special gauge faces, Si badging and unique wheels as part of the model upgrade. Practically every automaker except Mercedes does it, and I was simply wondering why their customers aren't outraged.
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    So your saying Tony doesn't know they change the engine on M, AMG, and S models along with everything that supports it? Thought he knew that.

    Norm

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    Wow, you just can't read, can you? Tony wasn't denying that. If you actually read his post, he was talking about paying for an AMG appearance package ON AN AMG CAR!!!

    C'mon McFly, think!

  7. #82
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    This is silly Norm- I never said they don't change the engine on an AMG car. To suggest that I don't know that is ludicrous, and all you're doing at this point is dancing around the fact that I'm right in pointing out how MB gouges people on the price of their cars, even on their top models.

    The fact that you've resorted to insulting me instead of replying to the facts about the car shows that you're out of ammo, so thanks for proving me right.
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  8. #83
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Hence the thread: $15,000 off when buying a C63 compared to the V2.


    Norm

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    This is silly Norm- I never said they don't change the engine on an AMG car. To suggest that I don't know that is ludicrous, and all you're doing at this point is dancing around the fact that I'm right in pointing out how MB gouges people on the price of their cars, even on their top models.

  9. #84
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    ....and hence the replies of wise people like CIWS, Rand49er and Bigjimsho that show comparing the "base" price of a C63 to the CTS-V doesn't tell the whole story for multiple reasons.

    1- The CTS-V price includes all the visual upgrades to the body, interior, wheels and more. MB will certainly charge extra if you want your AMG to actually look like an AMG, which is stupid.

    2- The CTS is a much roomier and more comfortable car than the C-Class, so it's like comparing an Elise to a Z06.

    3- Many features that are standard on the CTS-V will be optional on the C63.

    4-The price of the 2 generation CTS-V isn't even out yet, so you're just speculating at this point.

    We're going around in circles here. There's now 9 pages of reasons why this comparison is invalid, and all you can muster is re-posing the original question. Base price to base price means nothing- once CTS-V pricing is out and we can compare two equally optioned cars, then we can debate value.

    You seem reasonably intelligent, which is why I don't understand how you get suckered in by the "Starting At" price game. If you put that much value on the base price, I'll tell you what: I'll sell you a CTS-V "Starting At" $30,000, but you have to buy the Powertrain separately. Deal?
    Tony Pagano
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  10. #85
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    The C63 is around $61K plus tax, loaded. There are no "AMG" options like you mention for the C63. Not unless you want track brake system with two part rotor and hat. You'll have to prove #1 & #3 if you think lookers would stay until next winter for V2.

    As for #2 AMG customers are not going to "rollin" in there Benz. All the European cars are smaller overall and sometimes have better use of given room. People will just have to drive them to find out and not listen to a salesman.

    Looks like there are some pretty good markups for the E92 M3 already!

    Norm


    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    ....and hence the replies of wise people like CIWS, Rand49er and Bigjimsho that show comparing the "base" price of a C63 to the CTS-V doesn't tell the whole story for multiple reasons.

    1- The CTS-V price includes all the visual upgrades to the body, interior, wheels and more. MB will certainly charge extra if you want your AMG to actually look like an AMG, which is stupid.

    2- The CTS is a much roomier and more comfortable car than the C-Class, so it's like comparing an Elise to a Z06.

    3- Many features that are standard on the CTS-V will be optional on the C63.

    4-The price of the 2 generation CTS-V isn't even out yet, so you're just speculating at this point.

    We're going around in circles here. There's now 9 pages of reasons why this comparison is invalid, and all you can muster is re-posing the original question. Base price to base price means nothing- once CTS-V pricing is out and we can compare two equally optioned cars, then we can debate value.

    You seem reasonably intelligent, which is why I don't understand how you get suckered in by the "Starting At" price game. If you put that much value on the base price, I'll tell you what: I'll sell you a CTS-V "Starting At" $30,000, but you have to buy the Powertrain separately. Deal?

  11. #86
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV View Post
    As for #2 AMG customers are not going to "rollin" in there Benz. All the European cars are smaller overall and sometimes have better use of given room. People will just have to drive them to find out and not listen to a salesman.

    Norm


    I don't "roll" in my 04 CTS-V, nor do I plan to in my '09. I do however, plan to put my Son's carseat and occasionally my In-Laws in the back seat, plus my golf clubs in the trunk. Every single C-Class I've taken in trade toward a CTS, the owner mentions how tiny the car is. People don't buy sedans for the spiffy looking rear doors- they buy them to put stuff in the back.

    3.2" less front hip room
    3.6" less front shoulder room
    2.9" less rear leg room
    1.4 cubic feet less cargo volume in trunk

    Those are significant differences, and come directly from the respective manufacturers' specs. I also don't drive to work 10/10ths on a racetrack, so I appreciate the better ride that 6.5" longer wheelbase offers (along with the more advanced MRC suspension).

    There's also nothing wrong with listening to a Salesperson if they know what they're talking about. Plenty of people take their financial advisor's advice, and he/she works on commission as well.
    Tony Pagano
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    (352)787-1323

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    The views and opinions of this poster are solely his own and do not represent those of Plaza Cadillac

  12. #87
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Here's a list of options on the C63, straight from Mercedes Benz (my additions added in Red)

    Packages and Stand Alone Options (notice the word "Options", meaning extra cost)

    Premium 2 Package:
    § Bi-Xenon Headlamps (standard on V)
    § Heated Headlamp Washers (standard on V)
    § Power Rear Window Sunshade

    Multimedia Package:
    § 7" Power Rectractable Display (standard on V- 1" bigger screen, too)
    § COMAND Navigation (standard on V, with hands-free turn by turn)
    § harman/kardon LOGIC7 Surround Sound System (Bose 5.1 MP3/HDD standard on V)
    § Voice Control (standard on V)
    § PCMCIA Slot (iPod integration and 40gb HDD standard on V)
    § 6-Disc CD/DVD Changer (unnecessary with HDD standard on V)

    Seating Package:
    § Nappa Leather Upholstery (Unknown what type of leather in the V at this point, but will definitely have sueded inserts standard)
    § Memory Seats (standard on V)

    Stand Alone Options:
    § Metallic Paint (metallics standard on V, some colors optional)
    § Tele Aid (OnStar standard on V- blows away Tele Aid)
    § 6-Disc CD Changer (n/a with Multimedia Package) (not needed on V with 40gb HDD standard)

    Carbon Fiber Trim (H73) will not be available at launch. Customers can choose from Aluminum (739), Burl Walnut (731), or Black Birdseye Maple
    (732) Trim with any exterior paint selection.

    The 19" AMG wheels will not be offered in the US market. (standard on V)

    KEYLESS GO will not be offered in the US market. (standard on V)

    PARKTRONIC will not be offered in the US market. (rear parking standard on V)

    The P30 AMG Performance Package will not be available at launch. (no LSD on a performance car- haha. Standard on V with PTM and Stabilitrak)

    Typical Mercedes- hook you with a low "Starting At" price, then rape you on options if you want a real luxury car to go with your powertrain.
    Tony Pagano
    Sales Manager
    Plaza Cadillac
    Leesburg, FL
    (352)787-1323

    www.cadillactony.com



    The views and opinions of this poster are solely his own and do not represent those of Plaza Cadillac

  13. #88
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Most guys use their car for daily drivers so their "rollin".

    Want truck space? Check an A6. Someone started this thread!

    Numbers: what are you comparing as both CTS and C-class are new for 08? Every wonder why GM's code for the CTS was GMX-320? MB E/C 320!

    Still have not seen your rebutal to No. 1 & 3. Or is that normal salesman linguistics?

    Your right, not too many salesman have the passion you do for your V. You bring allot of knowledge to the forum along with allot of falsities about the competition. Then you back it up with hearsay from others.

    Just the facts!


    Norm



    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post


    I don't "roll" in my 04 CTS-V, nor do I plan to in my '09. I do however, plan to put my Son's carseat and occasionally my In-Laws in the back seat, plus my golf clubs in the trunk. Every single C-Class I've taken in trade toward a CTS, the owner mentions how tiny the car is. People don't buy sedans for the spiffy looking rear doors- they buy them to put stuff in the back.

    3.2" less front hip room
    3.6" less front shoulder room
    2.9" less rear leg room
    1.4 cubic feet less cargo volume in trunk

    Those are significant differences, and come directly from the respective manufacturers' specs. I also don't drive to work 10/10ths on a racetrack, so I appreciate the better ride that 6.5" longer wheelbase offers (along with the more advanced MRC suspension).

    There's also nothing wrong with listening to a Salesperson if they know what they're talking about. Plenty of people take their financial advisor's advice, and he/she works on commission as well.

  14. #89
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Thank you! That was I was looking for and hope it clears some things up for those shopping. I am sure there is stuff that C63 has that V2 does not that you did not list. MB offers a very nice european delivery program to drive your there, then have it shipped back.

    Now, hp wars start per dollar. 63 motor is putting low 400's to the wheel. At 17% drive train loss for V2 should put it in the mid 400's to the wheel. Considering the weight difference it should be a close performance test results. V2 is not looking too fast but should pull some new customers.


    Norm

    Except for the price. Looks to be around $10,000 cheaper than V2 plus tax.

    Norm

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    Here's a list of options on the C63, straight from Mercedes Benz (my additions added in Red)

    Packages and Stand Alone Options (notice the word "Options", meaning extra cost)

    Premium 2 Package:
    § Bi-Xenon Headlamps (standard on V)
    § Heated Headlamp Washers (standard on V)
    § Power Rear Window Sunshade

    Multimedia Package:
    § 7" Power Rectractable Display (standard on V- 1" bigger screen, too)
    § COMAND Navigation (standard on V, with hands-free turn by turn)
    § harman/kardon LOGIC7 Surround Sound System (Bose 5.1 MP3/HDD standard on V)
    § Voice Control (standard on V)
    § PCMCIA Slot (iPod integration and 40gb HDD standard on V)
    § 6-Disc CD/DVD Changer (unnecessary with HDD standard on V)

    Seating Package:
    § Nappa Leather Upholstery (Unknown what type of leather in the V at this point, but will definitely have sueded inserts standard)
    § Memory Seats (standard on V)

    Stand Alone Options:
    § Metallic Paint (metallics standard on V, some colors optional)
    § Tele Aid (OnStar standard on V- blows away Tele Aid)
    § 6-Disc CD Changer (n/a with Multimedia Package) (not needed on V with 40gb HDD standard)

    Carbon Fiber Trim (H73) will not be available at launch. Customers can choose from Aluminum (739), Burl Walnut (731), or Black Birdseye Maple
    (732) Trim with any exterior paint selection.

    The 19" AMG wheels will not be offered in the US market. (standard on V)

    KEYLESS GO will not be offered in the US market. (standard on V)

    PARKTRONIC will not be offered in the US market. (rear parking standard on V)

    The P30 AMG Performance Package will not be available at launch. (no LSD on a performance car- haha. Standard on V with PTM and Stabilitrak)

    Typical Mercedes- hook you with a low "Starting At" price, then rape you on options if you want a real luxury car to go with your powertrain.

  15. #90
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    Re: 2009 Price vs. M3\C63???

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV
    Still have not seen your rebutal to No. 1 & 3. Or is that normal salesman linguistics?
    Here we go again attacking me and ignoring the specs put right in front of you. My evidence to point #3 is post #87- I suggest you read it, it's really interesting. If they are including the AMG wheels and bodywork in the base price of the C63, it'll be a first- it's been optional on every other AMG I've ever seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV
    Most guys use their car for daily drivers
    Exactly- so remind me again why you're ignoring the bigger trunk, better ride, larger interior, more amenities and more user friendly and comfortable interior of the CTS over the C-Class and saying that it doesn't matter? Oh wait, I know- because it shoots holes in your whole retarded argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV
    Just the facts!
    Cargo volume is a fact.
    Leg room is a fact.
    Hip room is a fact.
    Wheelbase is a fact.
    Option lists are a fact.
    Price is a fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reuters
    Dig deeper, though, and in many cases, consumers' views do not accurately
    reflect the automaker's recent track record. For example, Mercedes-Benz
    finished in the top five for quality. But the brand placed 33rd out of 36th
    in Consumer Reports' latest rankings for predicted reliability, a measure of
    quality over time.
    ^ Fact.

    The volume, dimensions and features of the E-Class matches up almost perfectly with the CTS, so that's the car that should be compared (but with a "Starting At" price of $87,475 for an E63 AMG, that one doesn't work so well to prove your point, does it?)
    Tony Pagano
    Sales Manager
    Plaza Cadillac
    Leesburg, FL
    (352)787-1323

    www.cadillactony.com



    The views and opinions of this poster are solely his own and do not represent those of Plaza Cadillac

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