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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by CVP33 Interesting to me that the new '08 CTS is only .10 slower in the figure 8 ...
  1. #31
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by CVP33 View Post
    Interesting to me that the new '08 CTS is only .10 slower in the figure 8 than the SRT-8. Hmmmmmm.

    CVP, hang a sign on the SRT right now that says "For Sale", then take the next 8 months to decide what color V you'll want

  2. #32
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Every time I hear how all this added weight is going to make CTS-V and ZR1s slow and lazy handlers I look back at my May 2007 issue of Road & Track.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=5015

    Download the data panel of this 4000 lb mag. shocked car and then tell me the CTS-V and ZR1 are going to be fat slow non handlers.

    And please do not be like a friend of mine that said "but its a farrari" because that means nothing.

  3. #33
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by annie View Post
    Every time I hear how all this added weight is going to make CTS-V and ZR1s slow and lazy handlers I look back at my May 2007 issue of Road & Track.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=5015

    Download the data panel of this 4000 lb mag. shocked car and then tell me the CTS-V and ZR1 are going to be fat slow non handlers.

    And please do not be like a friend of mine that said "but its a farrari" because that means nothing.
    Good comparison! A BIT lighter(V1 weight) and good bit more power to weight, but extremely impressive numbers that are surprising for the weight and wheelbase. We'll see numbers soon enough. Still say it took the Ring in under 8 minutes already.

  4. #34
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    You guys need to study physics and it's impact on vehicle dynamics if you think mag. shocks are going to do what you think. Sadly mistaken IMO, but time will tell I suppose. I have a funny feeling that although the '09 V will out-power the '07, it will NOT be the choice among those looking for a car for a day at the track. The Gen. 1 was as close as Cadillac is going to get to a dual-purpose car. And that's saying a lot IMO. A CADILLAC that is still a hell-raiser at the track. Amazing.

  5. #35
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Kat how do you explain this thing terrorizing the locals at Nurburgring? I'm a degreed engineer and took a physics class or two, albiet long ago. I liked my '07. I'm going to like the '09/'10 more. On the street or on the track. The '07 was severely hampered by the tiny wheels, even with race tires. It did well for such a heavy car (yes, both are heavy for track cars) but I do not think the '07 will be able to keep up with the '09's times at Nurburgring, much less at the drag strip.

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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    New caddy moto:

    "It's the shocks"!

    Still will not be a cone burner or feel light and nimble in emergency moves to the V1 razor like steering.

    Norm

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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    You guys need to study physics and it's impact on vehicle dynamics if you think mag. shocks are going to do what you think. Sadly mistaken IMO, but time will tell I suppose. I have a funny feeling that although the '09 V will out-power the '07, it will NOT be the choice among those looking for a car for a day at the track. The Gen. 1 was as close as Cadillac is going to get to a dual-purpose car. And that's saying a lot IMO. A CADILLAC that is still a hell-raiser at the track. Amazing.
    It's not just the MRC shocks Katshot. This car has the same wheelbase as the V1, but is a good bit wider in track, that helps the physics. It has bigger wheels and tires which help the physics. Another thing you seem to be loosing some understanding on is that added weight doesn't hurt cornering traction in quite the way you seem to think. The car will stay on the corner because of the static friction capability between the tire and the road. That friction capability actually increases with weight because friction is a product of the weight pushing the tires onto the pavement and the friction coefficient for the particular tire compound with a particular pavement. The new PS2 tires are sticker than those on the OEM V1 and the added weight actually helps so long as it doesn't all end up on only 2 tires. The MRC basically helps ensure the weight is divides as equally as possible between all 4 tires by taking lean out in the corners and helping the V2 corner much flatter than the V1 allow for FAR more overall static friction capability in a corner. Really bigger cars are handicaped far more by longer wheelbases and wider tracks making tighter corners harder to find good fast lines through since the car can nearly not even fit though the corner in the first place. They are also handicapped by normally higher CG's which tend to force too much weight onto the wheels on the outside of the corner, which can be helped with extra width AND MRC.

    The weight itself is not what normally handicaps them. Just look at the Veyron! You cannot tell me that car can't handle! It is just as heavy as this new V though. Now it has a much lower CG and wider track, but did post sub 25 sec figure 8 times on MT while weighing about the same as the V2. The V2 will easily take the V1 in about EVERY test and track with it's wider track, similar CG height, bigger brakes, higher power, and MRC. The weight really isn't important so long as the tires and wheels are improved to handle the higher loading and th CG doesn't go higher or track go narrower. The track actually got wider and I really don't think think the CG moved up or down much at all. CG actually might be a bit lower. Only thing that didn't improve is the CG went forward on the car a bit which is really probably worse than the extra weight.

  8. #38
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV View Post
    New caddy moto:

    "It's the shocks"!

    Still will not be a cone burner or feel light and nimble in emergency moves to the V1 razor like steering.

    Norm
    Nice ASSumption...

  9. #39
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Good reference in the 599 sports car/GT annie. I don't think 599 owners will be driving their cars for the 12K lease window. Probably have to buy two sets of tires the first year. Sports car in many case are tuned to do one thing, go as fast as possible. The suspension geometery and settings would not work on a passenger car. So stop comparing the V2 to sports cars, it isn't fair.


    Weight or friction?

    3900 lbs. V with Michelin Pilot all seasons vs. 2900 lbs. C5 with Dunlop M3 perf. snow tires. I was hoping the V would be comparable since the almost 1000 lbs would put higher psi under each tire and even after I added 70 lbs. of fuel the V could not handle the white stuff. Didn't matter if it was slush or soft powder there was no degree of snow or slush where the V would accel expect for punching it from a stop where the tires would dig in below the snow and the V would scoot. I was even hoping with the 250 lbs more per corner, probably closer to 300 lbs. for the front two, that it would turn and bit quicker. No luck. Real world example just did not work. So I parked it and drove the C5 and had a blast passing 4wd in the snow covered lane.

    Friction is important and you will not get friction from just shear weight. dead weight, unsprung weight, or any other weight. Besides you'll have to move that weight some time from a static test like a skid pad and it don't like to be moved quickly.

    Faster than 8 seconds for a 4200 4-door passenger car? Sports cars with almost half a ton less have a hard time doing that! 599 with a 4.18 rear and much better gear ratios than any GM car only ran a 7:47 on the 'ring! It is just a weight thing!

    Nurburgring lap times:

    7m43s --- Lamborghini Murcielago
    7m50s --- BMW E46 M3 CSL
    7m56s --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale
    7m56s --- Porsche 996 Turbo
    7m56s --- Chevrolet Corvette Z06 C5
    7m56s --- Chevrolet Corvette C6 (since proven incorrect)
    8m09s --- Ferrari 360 Modena
    8m12s --- Porsche 993 Turbo
    8m13s --- Dodge Viper SRT-10
    8m18s --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
    8m24s --- Subaru Impreza WRX STi
    8m32s --- Porsche Boxster S
    8m38s --- Honda NSX 3.2



    http://www.z06vette.com/forums/f4/z0...urgring-75950/

    Norm


    Quote Originally Posted by jasaero View Post
    It's not just the MRC shocks Katshot. This car has the same wheelbase as the V1, but is a good bit wider in track, that helps the physics. It has bigger wheels and tires which help the physics. Another thing you seem to be loosing some understanding on is that added weight doesn't hurt cornering traction in quite the way you seem to think. The car will stay on the corner because of the static friction capability between the tire and the road. That friction capability actually increases with weight because friction is a product of the weight pushing the tires onto the pavement and the friction coefficient for the particular tire compound with a particular pavement. The new PS2 tires are sticker than those on the OEM V1 and the added weight actually helps so long as it doesn't all end up on only 2 tires. The MRC basically helps ensure the weight is divides as equally as possible between all 4 tires by taking lean out in the corners and helping the V2 corner much flatter than the V1 allow for FAR more overall static friction capability in a corner. Really bigger cars are handicaped far more by longer wheelbases and wider tracks making tighter corners harder to find good fast lines through since the car can nearly not even fit though the corner in the first place. They are also handicapped by normally higher CG's which tend to force too much weight onto the wheels on the outside of the corner, which can be helped with extra width AND MRC.

    The weight itself is not what normally handicaps them. Just look at the Veyron! You cannot tell me that car can't handle! It is just as heavy as this new V though. Now it has a much lower CG and wider track, but did post sub 25 sec figure 8 times on MT while weighing about the same as the V2. The V2 will easily take the V1 in about EVERY test and track with it's wider track, similar CG height, bigger brakes, higher power, and MRC. The weight really isn't important so long as the tires and wheels are improved to handle the higher loading and th CG doesn't go higher or track go narrower. The track actually got wider and I really don't think think the CG moved up or down much at all. CG actually might be a bit lower. Only thing that didn't improve is the CG went forward on the car a bit which is really probably worse than the extra weight.

  10. #40
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Norm, Annie's post in regards to the 599 Fiorano GTB actually kinda contradicts what you're sayin. She was kinda sayin that all this talk of how the weight is gonna yield "fat slow non handlers" was rubbish.

    The 599 had a test weight of over 4000 pounds, over 800 lbs more than the Enzo (curb weight 3865 vs Enzo's 3010), is down on power by 49 hp (611 vs 660), and yet is faster 0-60 by 0.5 sec (3.2 vs 3.7) and only 0.1 sec behind the Enzo in the quarter mile (11.2 sec @ 129.3 mph). Pretty impressive. Even the Ring time you noted of "only 7:47" is damn fast. Hell, anything under 8:00 minutes on the Ring is damn fast. The only car on the list you provided that was faster was the Murcielago. The 599 was faster than an arguably more purpose built Stradale. I don't think there are any stock cars that can dip below high 7:30s.

    Bottom line, it's a fast car despite it's weight. I don't know if you wanna use that car to champion your point.

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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Europe's finest sports cars have a hard time breaking 8 minutes at the 'ring. Don't think 4400 lbs wet manual trans 'merican luxo barge is going to up stage European's finest on their home turf. If so, GM better make plans on price and production levels.


    Still don't shocks are going make this a new revolution. Manufactures would have done it long time ago and so would race teams.

    It's not the "shocks", it's the "shoes" that make the biggest difference!

    It's a friction thing! If you have over a decade of driving you'd understand.

    I'll pay the first round at Lindsay track day in May if my no faster than "8:07 ring time" holds up. Hopefully we'll have some days by then.

    Norm

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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    I predict the new stock CTS-V will beat the old one on the ring.

  13. #43
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV View Post
    Still don't shocks are going make this a new revolution.
    Norm
    Speaking in tongues? Norm, you frighten me.

  14. #44
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by CVP33 View Post
    Speaking in tongues? Norm, you frighten me.
    Crackberry Pearl limits my ability to make corrections. Sorry!

    Still don't think MRC will will be a new revolution!

    Guys out your money where your mouth is!

    Norm

  15. #45
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    Re: M/T COTY Base CTS Test Data - Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV View Post
    Crackberry Pearl limits my ability to make corrections. Sorry!

    Still don't think MRC will will be a new revolution!

    Guys out your money where your mouth is!

    Norm

    I did.



    (BTW, I use a Pearl Too. How does it limit your ability to make corrections?)

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