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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, An AWD "V"? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; 550 hp going to two wheels will create its own traction problems. An AWD system may help the power get ...
  1. #76
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    550 hp going to two wheels will create its own traction problems. An AWD system may help the power get to the road instead of the traction management taking over. It will probably put less stress on the rear end, half shafts and limit wheel hop.

    I said before that you don't want AWD with some motors. It will slow you down in the end if you don't have extra power to spare. The new V does. One of the best AWD systems on the market, Audi's Quattro system, was banned by SCCA because it provided too much of an advantage. While other cars were trying to put down power with their rear wheels the Audi's would just claw through and disappear. Even a Volvo AWD beat everyone by a lap (including the VR) last year when it raced in rain all day.

    There are some negatives with AWD but with over 550hp, there is a lot of positives for it. You can only accelerate with as much traction as your car will provide. In that case 4 wheels will ALWAYS be better then 2.

    People need to read up on AWD systems because a good one will offset the disadvantages.

  2. #77
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by gothicaleigh View Post
    -More drivetrain loss = less power to the ground.
    -More unsprung weight = negative effect on all areas of performance.
    -More overall weight.
    -Added understeer and loss of lateral traction.
    -RWD provides a more balanced weight distribution.
    -RWD provides a more centered feeling and allows you to steer with the throttle.

    Yeah, I can barely contain myself from jumping up and down.
    Even with an additional 400lb weight handicap, forced use of smaller tires and a boost restriction the Audi's cleaned the clocks of the competition. The opposition declared AWD to be such an advantage that the race organizers banned its use.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HS3gz1M6GU

    This video places you in the unique position of being the last person in the world unwilling to admit the superiority of AWD in a road racing machine.
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  3. #78
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    I'm in good company with both the engineers behind the V-series and BMW's ///Motorsport division.

    Your whole argument rests upon Audi's accomplishments from nearly 20 years ago (or worse yet, upon rallying history which is a completely different animal from roadcourse racing). You have also completely ignored the fact that any example that can be given of a car offered in both AWD and RWD, the RWD version will outperform the AWD one. The added traction AWD provides upon launch is quickly negated by the disadvantages I listed above.

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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Lets get rid of all the arguments over which is better for a second.

    Goth, there are people who would buy an AWD CTS-V, for several reasons, snow belt, perceived performance, "fully loaded" status. Do you think Cadillac should not offer it because of some sense of brand "purity"?

    Any of my friends that still live in IL would not buy a V because of the RWD aspect, but would definitely be interested in the AWD.

    And with the addition of an automatic this car will be interesting to a whole new realm of buyers and lots of them will want the CTS-V4.

    A few years from now we may have to actually deal with V4 vs V snobbery around here

  5. #80
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Lets get rid of all the arguments over which is better for a second.

    Goth, there are people who would buy an AWD CTS-V, for several reasons, snow belt, perceived performance, "fully loaded" status. Do you think Cadillac should not offer it because of some sense of brand "purity"?
    The V-series is not a high enough volume seller to offer both and a V loaded with AWD will not be competitive versus the best efforts from Germany. Performance comparisons are everything in this class, so every tenth is invaluable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett
    Any of my friends that still live in IL would not buy a V because of the RWD aspect, but would definitely be interested in the AWD.

    And with the addition of an automatic this car will be interesting to a whole new realm of buyers and lots of them will want the CTS-V4.

    A few years from now we may have to actually deal with V4 vs V snobbery around here
    Slushbox plus AWD...
    ...I guess we at least will be able to tell who purchased it for the badge then.

  6. #81
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by gothicaleigh View Post
    I'm in good company with both the engineers behind the V-series and BMW's ///Motorsport division.

    Your whole argument rests upon Audi's accomplishments from nearly 20 years ago (or worse yet, upon rallying history which is a completely different animal from roadcourse racing). You have also completely ignored the fact that any example that can be given of a car offered in both AWD and RWD, the RWD version will outperform the AWD one. The added traction AWD provides upon launch is quickly negated by the disadvantages I listed above.
    Please excuse my abysmal ignorance. I was not aware that the SCCA Trans Am series and IMSA GTO were rallying. I could have sworn they were road racing. It just goes to show how dumb I can be.
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    The V volume will likely increase due to the Automatic. though sales gains may be diminished by the higher price tag. Either way there is a market for AWD. If GM is content with continually telling people what they want instead of giving them what they want then more power to them.

    You are in the situation where you actually know too much. Most people just dont buy these cars to do what you think. Especially with the addition of an auto there will be less enthusiast owners than there were before.

  8. #83
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    The V volume will likely increase due to the Automatic. though sales gains may be diminished by the higher price tag. Either way there is a market for AWD. If GM is content with continually telling people what they want instead of giving them what they want then more power to them.

    You are in the situation where you actually know too much. Most people just dont buy these cars to do what you think. Especially with the addition of an auto there will be less enthusiast owners than there were before.
    I couldnít agree more. The CTS V filled a distinct niche in the market place for a few enthusiasts who wanted a distinct product. When you try to make this product appeal to many people it loses its identity. Letís hope that GM realizes that and doesnít try to diversify any more than they already have. The automatic tranny is already a move in the wrong direction IMHO. AWD and a 2 door coupe will seal the Vís demise.

  9. #84
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkozloski View Post
    Please excuse my abysmal ignorance. I was not aware that the SCCA Trans Am series and IMSA GTO were rallying. I could have sworn they were road racing. It just goes to show how dumb I can be.
    This post is just more obscurantism on your part. You had linked to more than just the road racing events, hence why I stated: "Your whole argument rests upon Audi's accomplishments from nearly 20 years ago (or worse yet, upon rallying history which is a completely different animal from roadcourse racing)."

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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich H View Post
    AWD and a 2 door coupe will seal the Vís demise.
    Maybe from a "purist" point of view, but GM will likely make more money the more variations that they have.

    I think the days of the "gearhead" V are over. I really have no opinion on whether that is a good thing or not. I suspect for GM it is good. For the enthusiast it is bad.

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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Goth, do you have any type of comparable track times for a C2 vs C4 911? I would be interested in seeing that.

  12. #87
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    The 959 Porsche was a total bust.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_959

    The 993 was as well.

    Porscshe must have been ready to gunnybag their whole operation after they converted all 911 turbo production to AWD. The 996's and 997's are particularly disgraceful. I'm sure their track record would have been much better with RWD. It must have been sheer stupidity and a total disregard of basic engineering principles that drove them to have such an extensive AWD development program.
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  13. #88
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkozloski View Post
    It's an acedemic exercise because AWD has been legislated out by the sanctioning bodies as a result of the drubbing Audi gave with a production car to purpose built race cars. It's just like the turbine cars at Indy and Jim Halls ground effects cars and movable wing. Somebody comes along and blows away the competition with a better mousetrap so they do with the rulebook what they can't do at the track. By the way did you ever see a Group B rally car that wasn't AWD?
    Reminds me of how the old turbine cars were handled.

  14. #89
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's V View Post
    550 hp going to two wheels will create its own traction problems. An AWD system may help the power get to the road instead of the traction management taking over. It will probably put less stress on the rear end, half shafts and limit wheel hop.

    I said before that you don't want AWD with some motors. It will slow you down in the end if you don't have extra power to spare. The new V does. One of the best AWD systems on the market, Audi's Quattro system, was banned by SCCA because it provided too much of an advantage. While other cars were trying to put down power with their rear wheels the Audi's would just claw through and disappear. Even a Volvo AWD beat everyone by a lap (including the VR) last year when it raced in rain all day.

    There are some negatives with AWD but with over 550hp, there is a lot of positives for it. You can only accelerate with as much traction as your car will provide. In that case 4 wheels will ALWAYS be better then 2.

    People need to read up on AWD systems because a good one will offset the disadvantages.
    Sorry I haven't been here in a couple days. I would've made this very point too. Well said!
    Bottom line is that the '09 CTS-V has WAY more torque than it can use in virtually every situation. You have a problem believing that, try driving one anywhere near the edge WITHOUT the T/C.

  15. #90
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Maybe from a "purist" point of view, but GM will likely make more money the more variations that they have.

    I think the days of the "gearhead" V are over. I really have no opinion on whether that is a good thing or not. I suspect for GM it is good. For the enthusiast it is bad.
    Maybe if GM actually makes money, and the CTS-V (or any performance line actually) actually sells well and ends up making some respectable sales numbers, they would offer a "club" version for all the "purists". But if the model line shows dismal sales, there's no chance of making a business case for investing in what is sure to be an even SMALLER niche vehicle.

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