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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, An AWD "V"? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by Katshot Just as a point of comparison, a 2008 S6 weighs less than a couple hundred pounds ...
  1. #46
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    Just as a point of comparison, a 2008 S6 weighs less than a couple hundred pounds more than the '09 CTS-V is supposed to. What's the weight difference between the STS and the STS-4?
    The 2007 Audi S6 weighed in at 4528 lbs vs a BMW M5 at 4137 lb and an E63 AMG at 4315 lb. I don't know how that compares to the STS but it is a whole lot heavier than my 2004 V with nearly the same hp and identical torque to the S6.

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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    Just as a point of comparison, a 2008 S6 weighs less than a couple hundred pounds more than the '09 CTS-V is supposed to. What's the weight difference between the STS and the STS-4?
    226 pounds.
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  3. #48
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    The Audis of Hans Stuck, Hurley Heywood, and Walter Rohrl were stock steel bodied and they were running against the 2600lb purpose built race cars of Jack Roush among others. They shamed the opposition so badly that AWD was legislated out of the competition. Audi quit and went IMSA racing. Horsepower is not the be-all end-all in road racing. The first guy to WOT coming out of the corner wins. The RWD car is going to burn the rear tires off trying.
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    What demoralized the Mustangs and Camaros was that the Audis could go around them on the outside and still pull them coming out of the corner.
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    I love these theoretical discussions about RWD vs. AWD and the armchair experts telling all about it. Meanwhile BobTullius ate Jack Roush's lunch and the organizers banned AWD for doing it.
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  6. #51
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkozloski View Post
    I love these theoretical discussions about RWD vs. AWD and the armchair experts telling all about it. Meanwhile BobTullius ate Jack Roush's lunch and the organizers banned AWD for doing it.
    I like this guy!

  7. #52
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkozloski View Post
    I love these theoretical discussions about RWD vs. AWD and the armchair experts telling all about it. Meanwhile BobTullius ate Jack Roush's lunch and the organizers banned AWD for doing it.
    There were more differences between those cars than just AWD versus RWD. Besides, Firebirds and Mustangs have never been known as the most proficient of handlers (not to mention that german automotive engineering was peaking in the '80s while the US was turning out the worst cars it ever did).

    Outfit the same car with both, and on any roadcourse RWD will outperform AWD everytime. Any wheel being used for forward momentum has less lateral traction.

  8. #53
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    AWD adds weight and is more complex. While it will provide more traction it still most carry the extra 200lbs or so of weight around. But give the AWD enough HP to offset the weight and it will be better around a track.

    As far as the street version goes you are probably looking at a $2-3k hit, reduced gas mileage (IE more GGT) and more maintenance issues. I would cringe if I saw a new V driving in this snow/salt crap around here even with AWD.

  9. #54
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    There will be a lot more than 200 lbs difference between a V RWD and a V AWD. If you are looking at 226 lb difference for a plain STS the differnce will go up for a car with 550 hp and 550 ft lb distributed between 2 differentials and drive lines. We have enough problems now with a single rear drive line holding up to a mere 400 hp. Think what it would be like with 2 drive lines with more grunt!

  10. #55
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by gothicaleigh View Post
    There were more differences between those cars than just AWD versus RWD. Besides, Firebirds and Mustangs have never been known as the most proficient of handlers (not to mention that german automotive engineering was peaking in the '80s while the US was turning out the worst cars it ever did).

    Outfit the same car with both, and on any road course RWD will outperform AWD everytime. Any wheel being used for forward momentum has less lateral traction.
    Jack Rausch's Trans Am Mustangs were 2600lb. purpose built from scratch race cars with tube frame chassis and fiberglass bodies. That made the drubbing of them by the stock bodied Audi's all the more satisfying. AWD provides better cornering by sharing the acceleration loading on the tire patch among all four wheels instead of just the rears. With a FWD car under hard acceleration the front end heads for the guard rail. Under hard acceleration with a RWD car the rear end kicks out. Under acceleration with an AWD car you get a nice balanced cornering plus the traction at all four wheels to rocket you out of the corners.

    Road racers use hard braking to get set up for the corner, the car essentially rolls through the middle of the corner while the driver sets it up for the exit. The first car that gets to wide open throttle exiting the corner is going to win. The AWD car can take the turn wider and still have traction for the exit. There is no argument here. The Audis were stock steel bodied cars with gutted interiors. Jack Rausch's Mustangs were purpose built 2600lb race cars built in his shops and driven by the best guys he could hire, Wally Dallenbach jr., Scott Pruett, Hurley Heywood, and Dorsey Schroeder. Hurley Heywood saw the handwriting on the wall and defected to Audi to join Hans Stuck, and Walter Rohrl. Audi steamrolled the competition. SCCA at that point banned AWD and Audi went to IMSA. If RWD will handily beat AWD, why did Audi kick everybody's ass and the SCCA banned AWD?
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Winning at road racing is all handling, driving, and getting the power to the ground. Horsepower is secondary.
    Don't mess with Binky Bear!


  12. #57
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    The Audis were simply better overall cars than the Mustangs and TransAms of the time.

    Show me one example of a car, all other things being equal, where the AWD version is the better performer. You will not be able to because physics are against AWD, not only in weight, but in cornering grip (not just how fast you can dig and pull out of the corner, but how well the car handles through the whole corner).

    A wheel that is pushing the car forward does not have the same amount of lateral traction as a tire that is "freerolling". This is part of the reason why RWD cars are prone to understeer and FWD cars are prone to oversteer. Oversteer just pushes through, but understeer can be manipulated with experienced throttle control. A properly balanced AWD system will tend towards understeer, but still retains an inherent oversteer when pushed to the limit due to the fact that it's front wheels have less lateral grip than the same car with RWD. Now compound that with the heavier unsprung mass needed to drive the front wheels and it should be obvious why RWD is the preferred layout for performance.

  13. #58
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by gothicaleigh View Post
    The Audis were simply better overall cars than the Mustangs and TransAms of the time.

    Show me one example of a car, all other things being equal, where the AWD version is the better performer. You will not be able to because physics are against AWD, not only in weight, but in cornering grip (not just how fast you can dig and pull out of the corner, but how well the car handles through the whole corner).

    A wheel that is pushing the car forward does not have the same amount of lateral traction as a tire that is "freerolling". This is part of the reason why RWD cars are prone to understeer and FWD cars are prone to oversteer. Oversteer just pushes through, but understeer can be manipulated with experienced throttle control. A properly balanced AWD system will tend towards understeer, but still retains an inherent oversteer when pushed to the limit due to the fact that it's front wheels have less lateral grip than the same car with RWD. Now compound that with the heavier unsprung mass needed to drive the front wheels and it should be obvious why RWD is the preferred layout for performance.
    You have the physics and handling characteristics of FWD and RWD cars exactly ass backwards. FWD cars understeer under power and RWD cars oversteer under power. AWD cars have balanced steering because the acceleration loads are shared at both ends. Jack Raush's cars were Ford Mustangs in name only. The motors were 5L Boss 302's but the chassis and bodies were purpose built race cars by one of the most famous names in racing in America. The Audi's were stock steel bodied 5 cylinder Audi 200's that were turbo charged. The edge was from AWD. That's why it has been outlawed and not used in current racing. Not because it's inferior somehow. During the same time period, Michelle Mouton won the Pike's Peak hillclimb in an AWD Audi against all comers including the Unser brothers driving sprint cars. Anybody that has road raced will tell you that the key is the exit from the corners. They all would be willing to give up something in the corner to make the best possible exit.
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  14. #59
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkozloski View Post
    You have the physics and handling characteristics of FWD and RWD cars exactly ass backwards. FWD cars understeer under power and RWD cars oversteer under power.
    Yeah, I see somehow I typed those out backwards... dyslexia?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkozloski
    AWD cars have balanced steering because the acceleration loads are shared at both ends.
    Lateral traction loss is also shared at both ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by dkozloski
    Jack Raush's cars were Ford Mustangs in name only. The motors were 5L Boss 302's but the chassis and bodies were purpose built race cars by one of the most famous names in racing in America. The Audi's were stock steel bodied 5 cylinder Audi 200's that were turbo charged. The edge was from AWD. That's why it has been outlawed and not used in current racing. Not because it's inferior somehow. During the same time period, Michelle Mouton won the Pike's Peak hillclimb in an AWD Audi against all comers including the Unser brothers driving sprint cars. Anybody that has road raced will tell you that the key is the exit from the corners. They all would be willing to give up something in the corner to make the best possible exit.
    Most pertinant part in bold. The 80's were a shitty time to be an american car. The most successful production based racecar of that time (and still holding the title) was the RWD e30 M3. But races between different cars mean nothing to this argument because there are many many other variables at play. On equally equipped cars, the RWD version will outperform the AWD one.

    For you Koz:
    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ml#post1390887


  15. #60
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    Re: An AWD "V"?

    :gurl: gothicaleigh

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