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2016 CTS-V and ATS-V Spotted in Nürburgring testing

32K views 218 replies 38 participants last post by  CavemanB52 
#1 · (Edited)
Happened to be here this weekend and got a heads up that they were testing so I went out to take some shots



Only uploaded one of the CTS-V ones for now. Upload is a bit slow here.


Race track Sport venue Vehicle Rallycross Transport

Race track Sport venue Fence Guard rail Road
 
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#5 ·
Hell yes. Thanks for being our spy photographer in the field.

And lucky bastard, for getting to visit the Nürburgring.
 
#24 · (Edited)
I agree. I've seen cc's glow under heavy use too. What I was thinking is that cc's don't heat as quickly as iron and dissipate heat much more quickly.
Might explain why the fronts weren't glowing while the rears were. Maybe GM is testing with ceramic brakes? Maybe standard/optional equipment on the V3's?
I'm no expert on brakes, just a thought. It wouldn't be out of the question though, would it? Considering possibly upwards of 700hp(?).
 
#30 ·
All true, but I think the point is that the V2 CTS-V was the bang for the buck king. M5/E63 performance for 2/3 the price. Almost half the price with the current versions of the M5/E63, especially when you add options. You're definitely getting more than just power for the money it will cost, but with a steep hike in price like that what you're losing is the main thing that differentiated it from its competitors.

And to be honest, I don't think Cadillac has learned anything about pricing. The ELR is too expensive, the CTS Vsport is too expensive, the ATS is priced better but still not any better than its competitors. I think the problem here is that Cadillac is now producing genuinely great cars, cars that are beating their Euro competitors in head to head testing, even in the intangibles, and things like steering feel and chassis design - so they believe that therefore they can immediately start charging a huge premium for their cars and everybody will buy them, which is... optimistic, to be kind.

They're right about their cars, their cars are awesome. No question, some of the best in the industry now. They're wrong about being able to command a premium for them. As always, it's not about how good the cars are, it's about public perception of the brand. No matter how many auto journalists gush about how good Cadillacs are these days, it's not enough to change public perception. People still think BMWs are the ultimate driving machine, and you can't buy a car that is better than a BMW because such a car doesn't exist. It's hardwired into generation X from the yuppie era in the 80s.

THAT is what Cadillac needs to overcome before they're going to really be able to start charging as much as the Euros do, successfully at least.
 
#31 · (Edited)
All true, but I think the point is that the V2 CTS-V was the bang for the buck king. M5/E63 performance for 2/3 the price. Almost half the price with the current versions of the M5/E63, especially when you add options. You're definitely getting more than just power for the money it will cost, but with a steep hike in price like that what you're losing is the main thing that differentiated it from its competitors.

And to be honest, I don't think Cadillac has learned anything about pricing. The ELR is too expensive, the CTS Vsport is too expensive, the ATS is priced better but still not any better than its competitors. I think the problem here is that Cadillac is now producing genuinely great cars, cars that are beating their Euro competitors in head to head testing, even in the intangibles, and things like steering feel and chassis design - so they believe that therefore they can immediately start charging a huge premium for their cars and everybody will buy them, which is... optimistic, to be kind.

They're right about their cars, their cars are awesome. No question, some of the best in the industry now. They're wrong about being able to command a premium for them. As always, it's not about how good the cars are, it's about public perception of the brand. No matter how many auto journalists gush about how good Cadillacs are these days, it's not enough to change public perception. People still think BMWs are the ultimate driving machine, and you can't buy a car that is better than a BMW because such a car doesn't exist. It's hardwired into generation X from the yuppie era in the 80s.

THAT is what Cadillac needs to overcome before they're going to really be able to start charging as much as the Euros do, successfully at least.
I couldn't agree more. You have eloquently summed up Cadillac's strength (making world class Euro-beating cars) and weakness (not understanding perceived vs real value).

Cadillac needs to keep producing terrific cars that can compete with, and beat, the Europeans, and continue to offer these cars at a relative bargain.
If they do, over time, perceptions will shift, and Cadillac will be able to reasonably command a higher price more in line with BMW, Mercedes, etc...

I still think that even at $85k the V3 will be a bargain. Out of my range but a bargain for those looking at BMW, Audi, etc...

Again, no disrespect meant to the Hellcat. I really do hope it lives up to expectations on the track and street.
 
#32 ·
Xaqtly said:
All true, but I think the point is that the V2 CTS-V was the bang for the buck king. M5/E63 performance for 2/3 the price. Almost half the price with the current versions of the M5/E63, especially when you add options. You're definitely getting more than just power for the money it will cost, but with a steep hike in price like that what you're losing is the main thing that differentiated it from its competitors. And to be honest, I don't think Cadillac has learned anything about pricing. The ELR is too expensive, the CTS Vsport is too expensive, the ATS is priced better but still not any better than its competitors. I think the problem here is that Cadillac is now producing genuinely great cars, cars that are beating their Euro competitors in head to head testing, even in the intangibles, and things like steering feel and chassis design - so they believe that therefore they can immediately start charging a huge premium for their cars and everybody will buy them, which is... optimistic, to be kind. They're right about their cars, their cars are awesome. No question, some of the best in the industry now. They're wrong about being able to command a premium for them. As always, it's not about how good the cars are, it's about public perception of the brand. No matter how many auto journalists gush about how good Cadillacs are these days, it's not enough to change public perception. People still think BMWs are the ultimate driving machine, and you can't buy a car that is better than a BMW because such a car doesn't exist. It's hardwired into generation X from the yuppie era in the 80s. THAT is what Cadillac needs to overcome before they're going to really be able to start charging as much as the Euros do, successfully at least.
Stated perfectly!
 
#34 ·
I couldn't afford a new V2, but what impressed me about the car as I waited for the cost of the used to come down, was how well they held their value. The V1's were $55k new and became a sub $30k car quickly there after. I think that the fact that the V2's held their value is a testament to their quality, and the consumer's perception. I am excited to see how the V3 takes that perception and quality to a new level. Even if it is $85-90k it will most likely be (nearly) fully optioned. I have seen new M5's optioned to $115k and E63's is the $110k range. So I agree with "vfaninva" it will definitely be a bargain.
 
#35 ·
The thing is, the M5 starts at $92k, I know you can option it up a lot higher, but the same will probably be true of the V3. Let's say the V3 starts at $85k, and as expected it will handle better, brake better and out-accelerate the M5. Technically you're still getting more for your money with the V3, and that's great, but the pricing gap between them is much slimmer.

And this is where public perception comes in - if there's only a $7,000 price delta between the CTS-V and the M5, even LESS people will buy the CTS-V than they did last generation (V2), because with the V2 it was "Well crap, I'm saving $30k by going with the CTS-V, this is a no-brainer". Now with the pricing so close you are not really effectively saving anything, and your average higher income bracket business guy who can afford a $90k car is going to get the M5 by default, or an S7 or maybe an E63. There's no incentive for him to get the CTS-V because he doesn't read reviews or care that the CTS-V is a better performer, he only cares that for about the same price he could have a BMW roundel on the hood, and brag about it to his buddies who, not coincidentally, also all drive Bimmers.

Part of the problem is not just public perception, but price bracket. At $62k the CTS-V was at least within the bounds of reality for the middle class, maybe pushing the line but it was there, like the Hellcat and the GT500 and the Stingray. At $85k that's right out of middle class territory. A lot of us that own our CTS-Vs are not rich, we're middle class and paying for the V is a very significant chunk of our income BUT it's not quite out of bounds. We're the guys who read the reviews and do the comparisons and find the best value, and we're the guys who bought the CTS-Vs.

When you're looking at paying $90k for a car, you're not struggling to afford it, and you're not the kind of person that does the research and chooses the CTS-V over the M5. In fact at that price you're more likely to get a Jag F-type R than you are a CTS-V, because it's about status and cool at that level, at least in the context of this super sedan/GT car category. This is not a class where Cadillac is competitive, in terms of brand alone.

And that brings us back to perception, because unfortunately at the $85-90k price point perception is even more important than it is at the $62k price point. People expect to pay that much for a Merc or a BMW, not a Cadillac. I don't know, I mean maybe it's been long enough that Cadillac can turn it around with regards to brand perception, but it doesn't feel that way to me, not yet anyway. I just don't see how people who can afford $90k super sedans are going to bother considering the CTS-V when the Germans are the de facto standard for that price point.
 
#61 ·
And that brings us back to perception, because unfortunately at the $85-90k price point perception is even more important than it is at the $62k price point. People expect to pay that much for a Merc or a BMW, not a Cadillac. I don't know, I mean maybe it's been long enough that Cadillac can turn it around with regards to brand perception, but it doesn't feel that way to me, not yet anyway. I just don't see how people who can afford $90k super sedans are going to bother considering the CTS-V when the Germans are the de facto standard for that price point.
V1 MSRP $49,995
V2 MSRP $59,995
V3 MSRP $85,000??

I suspect $70-75k base, and I suspect it will continue to sell for less than MSRP. That's still 20% less than a base M5 or E63 for a car that will likely outperform both.
 
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