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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, V Sport First Test in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Jinx, I think you are correct as far as how Cadillac is attempting to market its product -- to offer ...
  1. #61
    RaVeNous is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Jinx, I think you are correct as far as how Cadillac is attempting to market its product -- to offer more for the same. This does not; however, get around the perception of American car quality, nor does it compete with the status of what a Mercedes or BMW bring. It arguably will never acquire that perception of status. I think it’s safe to say a Hyundai or Kia, will also never command the status of a Mercedes or BMW either, and they are making some pretty competitive cars. They will always be “just another Hyundai”. Cadillac does have a lot more history as an automaker, particularly in the US, and does have some status associated with it.

    It doesn't matter what kind of performance the Vsport offers. If its about the same price, with even a tad more performance, people will buy the Mercedes.

    I also believe that in the mid size, mid price market, your infinity, Acura, Lexus can market themselves on offering more for the same because:

    1) They are not a domestic brand. Right away there is a certain perception of status on owning an import.

    2) They don't cost $70-80K. Granted, Lexus makes some high end stuff as well, but their bread and butter here are the smaller mid priced, mid size sedans and SUV's.

    3) In the case of Infinity, I would argue they generally offer more features and performance for less. I don't care much for the new Q's but the former G35, G37 series cars were performance monsters at their perspective price range, and in my opinion had very nice interiors.

    I would argue, as the price bracket increases, there is a proportional increase in the desire for the status the car brings to its owner.

    Jinx also correct, in that the luxury market is much larger than the performance niche within any automaker. As car enthusiasts, it’s easy to forget the purchase of premium performance vehicles doesn’t keep a manufacturer in business.


    I also believe that in the mid size, mid price market, your infinity, acura, lexus can market themselves on offering more for the same because:

    1) They are not a domestic brand. Right away there is a certain perception of status on owning an import.

    2) They don't cost $70-80K. Granted, Lexus makes some high end stuff as well, but their bread and butter here are the smaller mid priced, mid size sedans and SUV's.

    3) In the case of Ifinity, I would argue they generally offer more features and performance for less. I don't care much for the new Q's but the former G35, G37 series cars were performance monsters at their perspective price range, and in my opinion had very nice interiors.

    I would argue, as the price bracket increases, there is a proportional increase in the desire for the status the car brings to its owner.

    Jinx also correct, in that the luxury market is much larger than the performance niche within any automaker. As car enthusiests

  2. #62
    Jinx is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Brand perception doesn't change overnight, but it can change. Brand perception is also not uniform across all potential buyers. And though you may not realize it, brand perception is not just left up to the market to form on its own, it is actively manipulated, and not just by building incrementally better cars at the same old price.

    Hyundais will not always be "just another Hyundai" -- indeed, they're already not what they used to be. Audi is not what it used to be. Cadillac is already not what it used to be. Surely you acknowledge that, but you can't seem to accept that they can continue to improve and push forward... because they're a domestic? You speak as if all consumers (or perhaps all non-sucker / non-regretful consumers?) act as one, but some people are buying Cadillacs today simply because they're more desirable.

    It's not inevitable that Cadillac will continue to gain prestige, but it's too soon to call the CTS Vsport's content and pricing a failure because Cadillac hasn't "earned" it yet. The ATS isn't selling at BMW 3-series transaction prices, but its MSRPs aren't the huge discounts y'all think Cadillac has to publish and yet a lot of people are going to Cadillac dealers and driving away in new Cadillacs. It's possible that despite your passionate "it can never be" arguments Cadillac is making the right move by putting a premium pricetag on a luxury product and getting market attention for the goodness of the product.

  3. #63
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    thebigjimsho is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
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    Indeed. And how many people who are driving CTSs and ATSs today would've been driving them 10 years ago? Very few.

    Prestige. It's just about there...
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  4. #64
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    Indeed. And how many people who are driving CTSs and ATSs today would've been driving them 10 years ago? Very few.

    Prestige. It's just about there...
    Exactly. Exhibit A is me.

  5. #65
    Guy.Seminerio is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Quote Originally Posted by MEDISIN View Post
    I love how so many are quick to discredit the CTS Vsport before having even driven one. How many have even sat in the new CTS? Preliminary track numbers in pre-production cars simply won't tell us how this car stacks up against the 550i, E-550 which are it's primary competition. As it stands, it already costs less, and the driving/handling seems spot-on. It may not be as luxurious as the German offerings but at a lower price, I wouldn't expect it to be. We will simply have to wait and see how the cars measure up across all categories before condemning Cadillac for their efforts.

    Now who's discrediting the cts? It may not be as luxurious? The only things the cts vsport will be lacking vs the 550i and e550 will be an awd option (temporary. Mark my words,) a v8, and perceived luxury. I guarantee that it will meet or exceed those two cars in every other category including performance and interior materials and fit and finish.

  6. #66
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    BTW, I think Acura has always been a sub-luxury brand, offering less for less (compared to luxury brands) or really just more luxury than Honda for not a lot more money. I think they keep trying to push further upmarket but without any of the core 3-5-7 / C-E-S products they can't get there. It seems like Acura and Lincoln and Volvo think they can follow in Audi's footsteps by adding part-time-AWD to their front-drive platforms, but they don't have a brand like Quattro to legitimize them.

    Infiniti and Cadillac seem to have a better recipe -- distinctive styling and a genuine RWD sport sedan platform, with SUVs and other products to fill out the lineup.

    Gotta say, the number of niche variants the Germans have pulled off is impressive and has surely helped keep them on top of the luxury heap.

    Can you imagine working for Lincoln right now? Yikes.
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  7. #67
    MEDISIN is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    That is correct, it may not be as luxurious. I haven't sat in a fully optioned CTS Vsport, have you? I have sat in the 550i and E-550 optioned up to 85k and they are very nice places to be. If Cadillac can exceed that level of comfort, luxury, ergonomics, fit and finish for 70k then I will truly be impressed.

  8. #68
    Guy.Seminerio is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Ah ok gotcha. Oversight on my part.

  9. #69
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    Can you imagine working for Lincoln right now? Yikes.
    I think Ford should just take Lincoln off life support, it's done.

    Acura is in much better shape, honestly, people are buying their product and at a similar clip to Cadillac, I might add. However, any pretense of sportiness is gone. No Integra/RSX, no Legend, they made their breadwinner sedan, the TL, fugly, the list goes on and on. Their SH-AWD is pretty damn good--I owned an RL before I owned my two CTS-Vs and SH-AWD was fabulous in dry weather handling....it was badly marketed and the general public simply never got it, which is too bad, it was the best of the torque vectoring systems of its time. Then their design teams made some of the fugliest cars on the road. It sure made it lots easier for me to move to Cadillac.
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  10. #70
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    I don't know what a lot of the Japanese luxury brands are thinking, I use to like the Q45 and the LS 400's, it seems to me the new cars are ugly and not as nice. The hyundai is just OK, not a bad value to money but not up to true luxury car standards. Hard to believe the top of the line for Caddy is the XTS as far as a luxury car goes, I think they are really strange looking and not many features and no where near as classy as a Mercedes. Cadillac use to be a innovator years ago with new features to make their cars a lot more user friendly, not so anymore. Mercedes is top dog and coming out with even more great products.
    Guy.Seminerio likes this.

  11. #71
    Guy.Seminerio is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    There have been talks for a while about building a Lincoln off the new mustang platform, but other than that, ford needs to start from scratch on developing RWD platforms for Lincoln. Lincoln has a pretty rich history and a lot of classic designs that they can make relevant to today. There is a lot of potential there. But Lincoln is a brand that will be truly hard to bring up to the level of MB and BMW. I think if Lincoln made a dedicated effort to do this, they might get there in 50 years. It's pretty rough. It just seems like they're not trying. They've put out a couple of decent concepts over the years though.

  12. #72
    Jinx is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Poor Lincoln. There's room for luxury models that are built on FWD platforms, but a whole brand? I don't know. Maybe if Lincoln finds another dimension of luxury and runs with it -- an elegant integration of personal technology, for example, or innovative manufacturing techniques to provide greater interior customization, or who-knows-what that people find desirable. And maybe "traditional luxury" will make a comeback such that Lincoln and Buick can thrive at 90 degrees to Cadillac and the Germans (or, as likely, a notch below them).

    I wonder if a Lincoln based on the Mustang would just be a curious oddity within the curious oddity that is the Lincoln brand. It could even be a great car -- just imagine what a next-gen Boss 302 Laguna Seca would be given some attention to luxury.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Seminerio
    Service is a whole other thing. Paying 100k for a car and getting the service I've experienced at some dealers is unacceptable.
    Amen to that.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trapspeed View Post

    Amen to that.
    When I had a Lexus or a BMW, I would get a survey call after each visit. I mean every single one, even if it was only for an oil change. Cadillac never called me even once.

  15. #75
    dcc8203 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Quote Originally Posted by RGaret View Post
    One more thing, I've had Infiniti, Lexus, and BMW. One thing they all have that Cadillac doesn't, are service departments that know how to treat people right. I'm not saying they can fix the cars, but the service writers have no people skills. When your spending this kind of money, you expect to be treated a certain way. Cadillac doesn't have that yet.
    You may want to talk to my BMW-owning friend, whose 5 Series was in for a warranty turbocharger repair (google "BMW waste gate problem" if you think German engineering is bullet proof.) His car had been diagnosed and he was at the BMW dealership getting a loaner car when he saw his vehicle leaving the dealership. He followed the car and has video of two employees going through a burger shop drive through. Got to love your high dollar import being used for joy rides!

    My Caddy dealership is fantastic, and the BMW dealership here is well known to be flakey. I wouldn't trade!
    Jinx likes this.

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