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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, V Sport First Test in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; In the end money talks. If GM charges $90k or more for the V3 and gets a good take rate, ...
  1. #46
    RGaret's Avatar
    RGaret is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    In the end money talks. If GM charges $90k or more for the V3 and gets a good take rate, good for them. I'm a shareholder. But I do remember being offered an 07 STS V for $60k. I remember seeing a $100k XLR V for $25k off. Let the market decide. My vote is no at that price.
    RaVeNous likes this.

  2. #47
    RobF300 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    if the new cts-v is $90-$100k you guys can come visit me on another forum I wont be able to afford it, lol
    Tedboss1 likes this.

  3. #48
    youknooow is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Quote Originally Posted by RaVeNous View Post
    ^^^^1) German Heritage
    2) British Heritage
    3) Years of performing with base model line in that price range
    4) The snobbish status symbol provided by car of the above pedigree.

    As was stated multiple times, Cadillac has to offer more for less - that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Some exact features, same exact performance numbers, and I'm going with the "other guys" every time if I'm spending that kind of cash. I'm not alone in this.

    2014 E550 4Matic base price around $60k with $10-12k in options. 4.3 0-60

    2014 CLS550 4 matic starts at around $70,000. Loaded I believe a bit over $80,000. I'd spend $80k on this car or wait a year for a used one before spending $70,000 on a Caddy, and I LOVE my V - LOVE it.

    2013 S6 AWD $72,000 and really more of a true V competitor - way better Performace thana Vsport. 3.7 0-60

    2014 550 start at $51k but in true BMW fashion I'm sure options out to $70k. I'm not a BMW fan, and I think they are overpriced and not better quality than Benz or Audi.

    2013 Jaguar XF supercharged $68,000 XFR $84,000 - neither is a slouch and has one of the nicest interiors I've sat in.

    The Vsport is priced in the range of all these cars and doesn't offer more for less.

    Also:

    2014-2015 SRT8 300 loaded at $55,000. The bargain in this price range. Would destroy a Vsport 0-60, however probably not on a track, and is really more of a 750, S class size car - they are quite large. The 2015-2016 SRT8 will have an 8 speed transmission with an optional 6.2 supercharged hemi with a rumored 600hp. This might rival the V3 at a significantly lower price, without the track inspired handling, and in a larger car. Pricing will be lower than a Vsport fully loaded.
    How do you value heritage?

    British heritage (Ford - American, Tata- Indian)

    "3) Years of performing with base model line in that price range" - I am not sure what you are expressing?

    People recognize V-series models for whatever reason - I have had owners of Ferraris and Maserati take notice to my V. Hell just the other day a driver of E63 rode up on me on the Freeway rolled down his window and grinned as he exited the freeway. Its not important to me, but V series Caddys have "presence". No label whore here.

    Not really fair to compare 0-60 times of all wheel drive vehicles.

    Some tests place the Vsport at 4.4 0-60 so for right now the SRT's are within reach but either way it doesn't matter if the SRT's slaughter V-Sports.

    The SRT's always have and will continue to pack muscle but currently are not being engineered to the degree the V, AMG's, M, S, RS series vehicles are.

    I agree with your stated facts but your opinion makes it seem like Cadillac's are inferior products.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGaret View Post
    E60 535i. Cost the same as a CTS V of the same MY (2010). I got it because at that time, GM was going out of business. Performance not even in the same league. Service was outstanding from two different dealers.
    So why the rep didn't think you could cross shop a 5 series and a CTS? I was expecting you to say you turned in a 6 or 7 series based on her reaction.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by RGaret View Post
    In the end money talks. If GM charges $90k or more for the V3 and gets a good take rate, good for them. I'm a shareholder. But I do remember being offered an 07 STS V for $60k. I remember seeing a $100k XLR V for $25k off. Let the market decide. My vote is no at that price.
    Wow, you were offered both of those new?

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by youknooow View Post

    How do you value heritage?

    British heritage (Ford - American, Tata- Indian)

    "3) Years of performing with base model line in that price range" - I am not sure what you are expressing?

    People recognize V-series models for whatever reason - I have had owners of Ferraris and Maserati take notice to my V. Hell just the other day a driver of E63 rode up on me on the Freeway rolled down his window and grinned as he exited the freeway. Its not important to me, but V series Caddys have "presence". No label whore here.

    Not really fair to compare 0-60 times of all wheel drive vehicles.

    Some tests place the Vsport at 4.4 0-60 so for right now the SRT's are within reach but either way it doesn't matter if the SRT's slaughter V-Sports.

    The SRT's always have and will continue to pack muscle but currently are not being engineered to the degree the V, AMG's, M, S, RS series vehicles are.

    I agree with your stated facts but your opinion makes it seem like Cadillac's are inferior products.

    ----------



    So why the rep didn't think you could cross shop a 5 series and a CTS? I was expecting you to say you turned in a 6 or 7 series based on her reaction.
    Because she was a lousy salesperson. Rule #1 of sales is to not dish on the other guy's product. Tell me why yours is better but don't tell me theirs is not as good. I also forgot to mention that my 5 was worth $10,000 less than the anticipated residual because of a known fuel pump issue. If I had owned that car, it would have been my problem. BMW lost on that deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by youknooow View Post

    How do you value heritage?

    British heritage (Ford - American, Tata- Indian)

    "3) Years of performing with base model line in that price range" - I am not sure what you are expressing?

    People recognize V-series models for whatever reason - I have had owners of Ferraris and Maserati take notice to my V. Hell just the other day a driver of E63 rode up on me on the Freeway rolled down his window and grinned as he exited the freeway. Its not important to me, but V series Caddys have "presence". No label whore here.

    Not really fair to compare 0-60 times of all wheel drive vehicles.

    Some tests place the Vsport at 4.4 0-60 so for right now the SRT's are within reach but either way it doesn't matter if the SRT's slaughter V-Sports.

    The SRT's always have and will continue to pack muscle but currently are not being engineered to the degree the V, AMG's, M, S, RS series vehicles are.

    I agree with your stated facts but your opinion makes it seem like Cadillac's are inferior products.

    ----------



    So why the rep didn't think you could cross shop a 5 series and a CTS? I was expecting you to say you turned in a 6 or 7 series based on her reaction.

    ----------



    Wow, you were offered both of those new?
    Yes. At the time, they were both new. Those cars just didn't sell as well as planned.

  5. #50
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Yeah I think there's a misguided belief in here that Cadillac is perceived as being one of the big players in the car market. I hate to break this to you guys, but they're not. The CTS-V V2 turned a lot of heads and put Cadillac on the world map for maybe the first time in the history of the company, but that's not even close to being the same thing as having the same respect as MB, BMW, Audi. Car magazine editors and a select few performance enthusiasts in the US know how good the CTS-V is, the rest of the world has absolutely no clue.

    If Cadillac doesn't price their cars to severely undercut the competition, nobody is going to buy them. It's hard enough to get people to even take Cadillac seriously as a company that makes performance cars, never mind performance cars on the same level of excellence as the M and AMG series. Most of America and the entire rest of the world still sees Cadillac as the company that makes slow shitty cars for old people. You show one of those people a CTS Vsport for $70k and they'll laugh in your face as they drive over to the MB dealer.

    Consumer Reports saying the Vsport is a great car is not enough, and it never will be. The Vsport being a great car isn't enough either. Cadillac does not have the required public perception needed to sell cars at the same price point as the Germans, they don't have that kind of mindshare, they don't have that kind of clout. The reason the CTS-V first got my attention was because I saw it in some video, and went to do research. The performance impressed me, but then I saw the price and that's what did it. Well, and wagon, manual, etc. But it was the amazement of the price to performance ratio that did it.

    The Vsport does not have that advantage, and it's going to be lost in a sea of good cars from the other already highly respected brands at the same price point. Nobody is going to appreciate how much better the Vsport handles compared to an E550, nobody is going to care that the Vsport has Brembo brakes, but people will notice that the E550 has a V8 and the Vsport has a V6, and that they cost basically the same. And why go with an old man Cadillac when you can have a Benz? MB can play this game, Cadillac can't. Hell, people will buy BMWs simply because everybody knows a BMW is the ultimate driving machine, therefore a Cadillac couldn't possibly be as good.

    It's not fair and it's not accurate, but it's the reason mindshare matters. If you ask average people about Cadillac they will immediately think old people in DeVilles, and not one of them will think "Oh, standard of the world." This is why Cadillac must add extra incentive in the form of lower pricing. It's the only way they will get anybody in the showroom.

    And believe me, I hate that this is the way it is. I truly believe that Cadillac is now making some of the best cars on the market, at least from my performance-oriented perspective. I truly believe the CTS Vsport is a good car, maybe a great car, easily the equal or better of anything MB or BMW is putting out in that class. I believe the V3 CTS-V will once again knock the crowns off of BMW's and MB's stupid heads, and I believe if Cadillac keeps going in this direction they will gain more respect. Eventually. But they're not there yet, and they can't price their cars like they are. MB, Audi, BMW are the status quo right now and Cadillac has an uphill battle to fight here. But what I'm seeing is Cadillac resting on the success of the CTS-V, kicking their shoes off and waiting for money to roll in, and they're going to be disappointed. BMW and MB can print money with every crappy car they roll off their assembly line, Cadillac is going to need to fight for it.
    neuronbob, Tedboss1 and RaVeNous like this.

  6. #51
    RaVeNous is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    ^^^^Couldn't add anything to that 100% correct

  7. #52
    Guy.Seminerio is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Xaqtly good post. I agree with a lot of what you said. We may disagree as to how much further cadillac as to go to gain the prestige factor of MB and bmw, but I will admit they are not quite there. I agree completely that v8 was the way to go, not ttv6. Cadillac is not only resting on the shoulders of cts-v though. It now has ats to bring its name up. Although its a bit underpowered, it is a world class sports sedan, trumping its competitors in the all important handling category.

    Last thing is don't think for a second that some peoole who have been buying cl 550s and 600s haven't been longing for the day they could put that money towards a comparable Cadillac. CL is for the most part the only option in its segment. Let Cadillac build the Elmiraj and tell me thousands of cl owners won't drop their benzes off at the Cadillac dealer and drive home in one. You'd be kidding yourself. And that's just one segment.

    ----------

    Hell GM could price a car like that above the cl and still get plenty of converts.

  8. #53
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    Patience, guys, Cadillac has come leaps and bounds, over a few years. As long as car guys are in upper management circles, they're on a roll. We can help instead of being negative. Maybe Lutz can be cloned. The high performance engineers are still there...

    Jud
    Jud

  9. #54
    Guy.Seminerio is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Oh I really hope lutz rubbed off on someone that's still around up there.

  10. #55
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    thebigjimsho is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
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    The CTS has grown mightily in prestige and quality from 1st to 2nd generation. Seeing how good the ATS is, the CTS has closed that gap.

    The fact there is even a market and forum as dedicated as these show how far its come.

    Many of you V2 goobers would never have cared about, or driven, a V1. There will be even snobbier losers that will flock to the upgraded CTS...

    Oh, how I remember the early days of V1. Now THOSE were some good people...

  11. #56
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    Using the V2 as a daily driver instead of a toy will show you how special it is. I drove about 250 miles in bad rain today on business. The Michelin Pilot SS helped but the car is unflappable and totally comfortable. Lack of drama exudes competence.

    Jud
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  12. #57
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    I do miss the early days of the v1. I even came in a little late but still nice.

    Major reason t get a v was price of performance. I hope they still keep it.

  13. #58
    Jinx is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    We talk of Cadillac needing to offer more for less, but the truth as reflected in many threads on this forum is that up to and including the V2, Cadillac has been offering less for less. More performance, sure, but less elsewhere. And never forget that us performance buyers are far far outnumbered by luxury buyers. (Actually, luxury leasers, but that's a whole other conversation...)

    What Cadillac is doing is transitioning through offering the same for less on the way to offering more for the same. That's where they need to end up. I think we all have different ideas about where Cadillac is on that path and how fast they are and should be moving. But let's not rush to castrate Cadillac based on the specs and a couple of first-drive reviews. Full road tests and head-to-head comparisons will be the kind of repeated exposure that's needed for the qualitative benefits of the cars to be revealed. And truthfully, I expect Cadillac to still come up short of the luxury standard-bearers... but by very small margins. That will be enough to get some more folks who already like the idea of standing apart to buy Cadillacs and move the brand another step toward its goal.

  14. #59
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Xactly says it well. Cadillac is right now about where Acura was in the early 90's, building rep with good product noted by the automotive press and by the public. They are where BMW was in the early 80s when they were building cred in the U.S. another generation or two of compelling cars and improving quality and I think they can be A "standard of the world".

    .....and Cadillac is fighting for every sale it can get. Products like the V-series, ATS, and SRX show that Cadillac takes the lux market seriously.

    As I say in many threads, I'm a Honda diehard, but am actively rooting for Cadillac. I've bought two, will it eventually be three? Been trying to talk dear spouse into an SRX....

  15. #60
    MEDISIN is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: V Sport First Test

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
    But let's not rush to castrate Cadillac based on the specs and a couple of first-drive reviews. Full road tests and head-to-head comparisons will be the kind of repeated exposure that's needed for the qualitative benefits of the cars to be revealed. And truthfully, I expect Cadillac to still come up short of the luxury standard-bearers... but by very small margins. That will be enough to get some more folks who already like the idea of standing apart to buy Cadillacs and move the brand another step toward its goal.
    I love how so many are quick to discredit the CTS Vsport before having even driven one. How many have even sat in the new CTS? Preliminary track numbers in pre-production cars simply won't tell us how this car stacks up against the 550i, E-550 which are it's primary competition. As it stands, it already costs less, and the driving/handling seems spot-on. It may not be as luxurious as the German offerings but at a lower price, I wouldn't expect it to be. We will simply have to wait and see how the cars measure up across all categories before condemning Cadillac for their efforts.

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