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V3 - All Wheel Drive?

10K views 62 replies 23 participants last post by  thebigjimsho 
#1 ·
As we all know - the V2 is seriously traction limited. Sure, you can make 700+ hp, but you can't get the 556 hp, available from the stock set-up, to the ground efficiently (thus the 2nd gear start). Sport mode allows you to start in 1st gear and liquefy the tires - but does little to allow you to convert the torque into forward momentum.

The V-Sport XTS requires All Wheel Drive (the XTS is front wheel drive otherwise). This means that GM is pushing 410 hp and 369 lb-ft of torque through the XTS all wheel drive set-up. Is there any hope that they might be able to beef up the AWD to accommodate the 556 - 600 hp and 551 - 600 lb-ft of torque that the V3 is likely to develop?

Imagine an all wheel drive CTS-V with enough additional hp to compensate for the added weight of AWD..... That would really be a world class solution. What do you guys think?
 
#2 ·
AWD is obviously the best choice for 0-60 times (ie from a dead stop). See also: GT-R.

However, you seem to think that the V3 either needs less HP - so one won't suffer the indignity of spinning the wheels in 1st gear :D - or the only other option is AWD?

You forgot "throttle modulation" and "better tires," both of which are cheaper/more fuel efficient than AWD and more entertaining than less HP. Hell, I'd be okay with RWD if the V3 comes with a 10.5" diameter rear wheel and better tires from the factory.

With that said... AWD would be pretty freaking awesome! As far as high HP and AWD... well, it can be tricky (and costly) to get that kind of power to the ground with a suitable transmission, transfer case, etc without taking a huge weight penalty AND while ensuring a 100,000 mile warranty period (see also: the GT-R's price and maintenance schedule).
 
#4 ·
I'm with Jud. I've often wondered why launch control has not been a feature in the entire six-model year run for the V2. Did they simply decide it was too difficult to manage with the current setup? Or do automotive engineers enjoy liquifying tires as much as we, the enthusiast motoring public, do? :lildevil:

BTW, I'm having a hard time believing it's already been a six-model year run for the V2 at the end of the 2014 MY. Wow.
 
#5 ·
All launch control does is cut power until your tires have traction, then gradually increase power, keeping them right on the limit of adhesion. At least in the ZR-1 it's a good system, but a better solution would be to ensure your tires always have traction, which is what AWD does. AWD isn't the only solution though, the Z06 has a really nice balance of lots of power and huge 12" wide rims with 335-width tires and that gets the job done. Somebody else mentioned a new Australian Holden with the CTS-V drivetrain, but it comes with 20" wheels. I don't know how wide they are, but hopefully wider than 9.5", and that's a step in the right direction.

If the V3 CTS-V comes with much wider, Z06-style 12" wide rims and the ability to put 335s or 345s on them, that will go a really long way towards solving traction issues. But I've owned a lot of AWD cars, and I think AWD is a good option too. Don't know if it's actually feasible, but the new E63 did it and did it right - most of the power still goes to the rear and power oversteer is not a problem. But at the same time, you can launch from a stop like an AWD car, and frankly the ability to use the car's power at speeds under 60 MPH would be nice for a change.
 
#6 ·
Yeah, I know how launch control works; a lot like trying to feather the throttle without it, but I have nothing against AWD, and it should be an option. I would rather have some of the trick suspension/rear end things the C7 has, and save the weight. I'm more excited about the TR6070 and the refinement it offers; however, that's off subject. I don't think that the Cadillac high performance guys will disappoint us, and if they need some advice, we could all oblige. Ha haa!

Jud
 
#7 ·
From a sales standpoint it would be in cadillac's best interest to offer it in awd as an option.

I can guarantee that the move Mercedes made with the awd e63 is going to result in a HUGE jump in sales for that car in the snow belt, especially in NYC. I guarantee that most people in ny who buy e550 4 matcs, and 550xi xdrive (whatever they're calling it this week) would easily have gone e63/m3 if they had awd for the winters. This may surprise people from the south but the take rate for the awd variants of these RWD luxury sedans is around half.

I say offer it as an option because who doesn't love RWD?
 
#8 ·
Guy.Seminerio said:
From a sales standpoint it would be in cadillac's best interest to offer it in awd as an option.

I can guarantee that the move Mercedes made with the awd e63 is going to result in a HUGE jump in sales for that car in the snow belt, especially in NYC. I guarantee that most people in ny who buy e550 4 matcs, and 550xi xdrive (whatever they're calling it this week) would easily have gone e63/m3 if they had awd for the winters. This may surprise people from the south but the take rate for the awd variants of these RWD luxury sedans is around half.

I say offer it as an option because who doesn't love RWD?
Even with AWD if the car has summer tires it still can't be driven through snow. I live in the northeast and I wouldn't drive my car in the snow under any conditions because of all the morons with SUV's that think they have some sort of super powers when it snows. I prefer to stay home until the roads are plowed.
 
#10 ·
I still agree that AWD would be great from a performance and traction perspective. Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, and Bugatti all offer AWD on their cars. Now MB is onboard too. If the V2 had AWD, we could probably get to 60 in 3.6 seconds or less. I would be willing to pay for that.
 
#15 ·
If you live in the south then 2 wheel drive with R compound tires will work for the street but in the northern belt with 4 seasons, AWD is the only way to go bar non. I have owned several high HP cars with and w/o AWD and can tell you without hesitation that AWD is the greatest thing since sliced bread on average roads. AWD is so nice for cornering,
 
#16 · (Edited)
While for sure AWD would turn in better 0-60mph times, and probably sell more cars - I for one hope they don't ruin the car with it. Other manufactures have caved and made their performance cars AWD only in some cases, and eliminated manual transmissions in the quest for faster 0-60 times and more sales. This adds weight, and mostly caters to posers who commute in the cars and don't really use them for what they are intended for in the first place. There is less driver involvement, and much less steering feel when you add awd to a car. Plus you have a harder time controlling the car at the limit when you lose rwd, not to mention the ability to do a nice burnout and chirp the tires when you want too. In most cases, awd cars understeer - unless you have the rare car with the trick torque vectoring rear differential which will help rotate the rear under power in the corners.

Keep the V3 RWD with a Manual trans for enthusiasts IMO.

However, I realize most people probably do not use their V like I do....it is stictly a car I take out for when I want to really have a nice drive, or take to the track. I drive it probably only 6-8 times a month, never in the rain or snow. I am always going to have it, sort of like my 2004 GTO that I bought new and now has 14k miles on it.

I love the HP war going on with manufactures now, its a great time to be a car enthusiast - I just wish it did not result in a bunch of cars that are fast, but not really as fun to drive as they used to be with rwd and manual transmissions. The quest for the fastest 0-60 is ridding the world of rwd and manual trans sedans.

I like awd, I have had two Infiniti G35x cars I leased, and a 2006 Mazdaspeed 6 which was manual trans only and was an absolute blast to commute in, especially in the snow when I put snow tires on it. For an everyday driver, awd is great - just not what I want in a car with more sporting intentions.
 
#17 ·
I'd like AWD, simply because of our winters...but RWD is definitely the better platform if entertainment is your thing.

Really I think that 0-60 times are the scourge of the automotive world. It's the most childish for of comparison - it's just about beating the next douchebag at the traffic light. (Closely followed by 1/4 mile times. I can't believe how many people suggest I go to the drag strip. No interest).

The wonderful thing about the V, is how well it drives when it matters to me: in the twisties and when it's being driven.

AMG really did it right with the 2014 E63. That setup is light, has almost no drivetrain loss, and doesn't mess with the RWD bias. I really want one.
 
#18 ·
I can almost guarantee the lack of an awd option on the v sport is a very temporary thing otherwise there goes more lost opportunity to bite into the 550xi xdrive and e550 4 matic.

I think the moral of the story here is options.

Offer the v3 in RWD with either an auto or a manual
Offer awd as an option and for God's sake don't take the manual option away if I go awd.

Enthusiasts up north that use their cars year round will choose the awd manual.
 
#19 ·
I live in the desert and I would choose the AWD manual option. I had wheelspin at 70 MPH the other day, that shit gets real old. My last car was a Subaru STi with AWD, and that car is faster than the CTS-V around the nurburgring. It was sharp, precise, and you had traction no matter what you did. The way that car lets you blast out of apexes is almost unbelievable. A CTS-V with a good, performance-based AWD system like the one in the E63 AMG would be a mind-blowingly good car.
 
#20 ·
A CTS-V with a good, performance-based AWD system like the one in the E63 AMG would be a mind-blowingly good car.
No doubt. I'd be on board with that even though I have come to appreciate the fun one can have with RWD. Steering with your right foot FTW.....but I'd sure love to be able not to liquify tires on launch.

And +1 on a manual with AWD. WTF with car makers not offering manual with their AWD offerings? That's just wrong from my enthusiast's point of view. (Yes, I understand the economic argument for avoiding this combination....) Now that I'm dailying a MT car again, it feels so effortless I don't even think while I'm shifting anymore, it's all automatic.
 
#22 ·
You have to remember, AWD cars of today don't lose much of that RWD feel, becuase most of the time in a performance platform there is more power going there anyway. The V3 would be killer in an AWD manaul. Killer. The manual option would set it apart from other sport sedan AWD options as well. I don't regret getting the A6 at all, and would have been fine with either option, but one thing that's nice about the auto in our V2 is not worrying as much about traction. With the AWD and manual, particularly with some kind of launch control, it would just be....killer.

Loaded I don't think the V3 will be much if any under $90,000. Fully loaded the Vsport I think is more than the V2 - $76-78,000, I'm not sure the pricing has been fully released.

Yes at 90k, barring any severe depreciation, on a 1-3 year old car, I'd be looking at an AMG 4 Matic as well.
 
#29 ·
We can only hope. "Historically" Cadillac hasn't been known to be very good at offering very many different combinations of transmissions and driven wheels. See the CTS and even the ATS. We shall see.

----------

You can only get a manual with 1 of the 3 engines in the ats, and you have to go RWD to get it.
 
#35 ·
Can you get a CTS Vsport with AWD?
Can you get a BMW M5 with AWD?

Those are your leading indicators.
Can you get an E63 AMG wagon with AWD? Can you get an RS6 Avant with AWD? Can you get an Aventador with AWD? Can you get a GT-R with AWD? Those are your leading indicators. If you can prove how AWD hampers performance in those cars, that will be the end of the discussion.

Modified??
No, and that's the point. The STi is not faster than the CTS-V by a long shot - but its handling and precision is superior, and its AWD system allows it to rip through corners considerably faster than the CTS-V can. This is one of the ways an AWD system would benefit the CTS-V, in addition to the obvious traction benefits.

The power to weight ratio is likely better than 8.2lbs.
I see what you're saying, but I'm going with the published HP numbers in both cases.
 
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