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V3 - All Wheel Drive?

10K views 62 replies 23 participants last post by  thebigjimsho 
#1 ·
As we all know - the V2 is seriously traction limited. Sure, you can make 700+ hp, but you can't get the 556 hp, available from the stock set-up, to the ground efficiently (thus the 2nd gear start). Sport mode allows you to start in 1st gear and liquefy the tires - but does little to allow you to convert the torque into forward momentum.

The V-Sport XTS requires All Wheel Drive (the XTS is front wheel drive otherwise). This means that GM is pushing 410 hp and 369 lb-ft of torque through the XTS all wheel drive set-up. Is there any hope that they might be able to beef up the AWD to accommodate the 556 - 600 hp and 551 - 600 lb-ft of torque that the V3 is likely to develop?

Imagine an all wheel drive CTS-V with enough additional hp to compensate for the added weight of AWD..... That would really be a world class solution. What do you guys think?
 
#32 ·
No they won't. The v sport not having awd will change. It's just an other example of GM not having it ready. I would bet good money that the cts v sport will have RWD. M5? I think everyone was blind sided by mb. I think you will see it in the future. If GM has your mind state they'll just be following BMW some more because m5 will eventually offer awd. These automakers are missing out on more sales than you think by not offering these performance oriented variants of these sedans in awd.

I love nothing more than RWD but I am from NYC and ill be moving back in less than a year so awd means something to me.

Cadillac pointing you to srx and xts v sport and calling it a day is the old way of thinking at GM.

If GM had the $$ you'd have an awd cts v sport already.
 
#33 ·
In for my 2 cents....

With my love for my Cadillac's, I plan on holding on to my 13 V-Coupe (love the manual transmission and RWD), however wouldn't mind picking up a 3rd Gen V as well if it had these.

I want:

-To stay with a coupe
-Over 630HP
-AWD
-Dual clutch high performance transmission with paddle shifters
-Digital dash/tac, but a high def, clear, crisp one that is responsive, and doesn't have an "old" look to it
-Information on vehicle stats/status available on the NAV display
-And of course new BAD ass styling... Every time I go out for lunch/dinner, and walk outside for a cigarette, I'm in awe of my car, Mwhahaha I love it! Always attracts a few people who look inside at the interior/setup.


Things I know we'll get that I want changed:

-Don't care about CUE, but wish we could have real buttons (not haptic feedback touch buttons). Choice to use the screen, or "real" buttons would be awesome!
-I hope it has the same Caddillac logo as the 13 V coupe, I don't want that "new" Cadillac logo that I was reading about in other threads

Pointless things which could be "cool":

-Function to keep the rear view cam on in a competitive or sport mode for the track
-Driver preferences get saved (competitive mode, suspension modes) when the vehicle is turned off/on. Or a single switch inside the vehicle that by switching it once, changes the suspension, traction, and seat configuration.... When I feel like driving hard, I like the seat to hug more then when I'm just chilling, single switch to change all these would be rad!


I know the tranny, power, and AWD will cost $$$. But let's say Cadillac did this right, and I mean really right, I wouldn't mind dishing out $120,000 for that!
 
#34 ·
As someone who has owned several AWD track cars (4 Evos) and 'borrowed' a buddies GTR one summer while he was doing his stent overseas, I wanted to chime in. AWD would be GREAT, but know, you will create alot of potential problems at our power level, unless they really over engineer the system. Clutches, T-cases, and other components will shatter when things get harsh, especially if you have a good tire / suspension package on the car. For any track car I built that had more than 500whp, I had to modify the clutch and t-case, or I would have heat and stability issues. Launching an AWD car is VERY hard on the driveline, and I would suspect the tranny would also need alot of reworking. But, greater than all of this would be weight and the AWD tech required to make the system work well. I am simply not sure that GM has the back ground to do a system like MB, Nissan, or Audi, which have good reliable systems, that work very well, and have intelligence to only act when required, rather than a simple system like the first gen evos had. And the weight would push this car to stellar territory. My Evos at race weight with manual transmissions were ~3200 with me in the car (200lb), and my Evo MR w/ auto was ~3750. I like the way our cars feel now, and woudl miss the 'raw' driving impression it gives, BUT if GM could make the car lighter and build a system that had the intelligence of the GTR or Audi, then I may reconsider, and deal with the weight.
 
#36 ·
Show me the stock STI time that beats the 2009 CTS-V.

2011 - not stock

http://www.worldcarfans.com/113050757368/revolution-tuned-sti-breaks-nurburgring-record-for-a-subaru

2011 by a professional race car driver...interstingly enough the same time as the above modified car.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2011-subaru-impreza-wrx-sti-sets-nrburgring-lap-record


There are some EVO times that are better, but I'm not sure if they are stock or special tuner editions or what. I get your point regardless. I would hardly car a Subaru STI a performance sedan....just because it has 4 doors... Its a compact car. Its lighter weight, and significantly physically smaller. I would imagine its more agile. Is is really supposed to compete with E Class, Audi, 3-5 series etc... They are freaking small ass cars - I looked at getting one.
 
#40 ·
Show me the stock STI time that beats the 2009 CTS-V.

2011 - not stock

http://www.worldcarfans.com/113050757368/revolution-tuned-sti-breaks-nurburgring-record-for-a-subaru

2011 by a professional race car driver...interstingly enough the same time as the above modified car.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2011-subaru-impreza-wrx-sti-sets-nrburgring-lap-record
The one reported in C&D wasn't a production car either.

"The stickler is that the Subaru in question wasn’t a production car. It was, in the words of the company, a 2011 Impreza WRX STI prototype. The car is basically the bastard child of two JDM-only models with some extra bespoke aero bits thrown in for slipperiness and high-speed stability.

The car starts with the suspension from the improved-for-2011 WRX STI—it’s 5 mm lower than the 2010 model, with 1-mm-thicker front and rear anti-roll bars, higher-rate springs all around, stiffer rear-subframe bushings, and new front-suspension pillow-ball bushings. The engine is the Japanese-market STI spec.c’s, a 2.0-liter turbocharged boxer-four that’s been given the larger turbo from the R205, another Japanese special-edition STI model. It’s now putting out a claimed 320 hp, which makes the time that much more impressive when compared with the Panamera’s 500 turbocharged ponies (although the Porsche is surely carrying around a few hundred extra pounds). The R205 also donates six-piston front brakes and a front strut-tower brace; it features a flexible center portion that allows vertical motion but maintains lateral stiffness. Weight is saved through the use of an aluminum hood from the spec.c, unique aluminum front fenders, the spec.c’s smaller battery, and the deletion of the radio as in the R205 and spec.c. Extra aero parts specific to this car include a full undertray, a front-lip extension tacked onto the R205’s lower spoiler, and a Gurney flap added—taped, really—to the rear at Mäkinen’s request. (The car was getting a bit out of shape without it in the high-speed sections.) A full roll cage and race buckets fitted with a five-point harness for the driver and a four-point for the passenger make things safe."


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I'm not convinced the V3 must have AWD to compete, especially on the track. Look what the C7 did to the GTR.

http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/corvette-stingray/2014/comparison-test1.html

The GTR has more power, AWD and costs $47,000 more but is still slower around Streets of Willow than the RWD C7.
 
#39 ·
This was the whole idea behind this subject. Could GM get the AWD system to handle the added power of the V3? The XTS VSport is putting out 410 hp and 369 lb-ft of torque. AWD has so many benefits and the current platform will easily accommodate 600 - 700 hp, so adding enough power to compensate for the added weight of an AWD system (in the V3) should be easily possible for the manufacturer.

As for the "suggestion" that GM may not be able to “do it right” - I take exception. The entire V2 program was proof that GM engineers can produce world class luxury sports cars. Now simply challenging them to do this again, with an AWD platform that allowed the driver to put the available power to the ground, would just be another example of GM's engineering prowess. The CTS-V proved that GM does not have to worry about counting every penny and cutting every corner to make a platform a success. GM has some of the BEST automotive engineers on this planet! Bar none! Throw down the challenge to them and say - "make it the best AWD system on the market". Would that be difficult – sure, but keep in mind that GM has a long history of innovating. It is not like they would be starting from zero. There are plenty of good examples of AWD systems that work in sports cars. I think they could surprise the automotive world once again.

We just need to stop complaining about paying people living wages and retiree benefits and build a car that people will pay a couple of thousand dollars more for. I would gladly pay even $10K more for my V2 today - than I did in 2008/2009. It is just that good a vehicle! Straight from Detroit!
 
#41 ·
I don't know too much about this stuff, but I don't think there is any sense in trying to find out if the AWD system in the XTS V Sport can handle the power they'll put in the CTS-V3. My reason is that I believe the AWD system on the XTS is different than the one on the CTS-V would be. Reason for that is the X is FWD based and the C is RWD based. I'd think it would be completely different. Please correct me if I'm wrong. For one, XTS is limited as to how much power it can push to the rear wheels while the CTS-V's AWD system would be RWD biased (putting more power to the rears than to the fronts) like it is in the STS and CTS. What I think would be great is if the CTS-V with AWD that doesn't even exist yet, could vary the power going between the wheels so that the rears would get 100% until traction is lost, or about to be lost. At that point, the excess power causing the rears to (almost) lose traction is transferred to the front wheels, just enough to where the rears are at their limit. Power should be shared not only between front and rear tires, but side to side. Taking a left turn for example, the left tires will want to spin. Just before this happens, the car should redirect the torque to the right wheels. This setup would provide optimal performance. This technology exists. I think acura does this with their super handling awd. Classy name.

But AWD setups in general can handle that much power. See lamborghini.

Again, that whole setup would allow for better traction in weather, which will mean much more sales.

It will also outperform the RWD variant on the track, or on the strip. Here we are again with technology adding to sheer performance numbers while possibly taking away from the thrill and driving enjoyment. I'm sure a lot of you have read about the new 911 GT3 and it's lack of a clutch pedal. Porsche talks about track times and how much they'll improve. Sure, but to a degree, at the expense of driving enjoyment.

Anyone can just mash the pedal coming out of a turn and let the computers figure out the traction situation (I'm looking at you, GTR and Audi) but it's much more fun, and entertaining trying to perfect that corner exit with just enough power not to swing the back out and cost precious seconds. Or if you're into it, to be able to swing the back out for the fun of it. How about recording some burnouts before a tire change. Sorry AWD.

I would want AWD in a daily driver, but on a track? RWD manual. Bottom line, they should offer both. Easier said than done.

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Oh and in the case of Corvettes vs GTRs on the track, the ZR1 pulls away from the GTR at higher speeds (when traction is no longer an issue) and it far surpasses the GTR in cornering ability which is why the RWD car walks away from the AWD GTR on a track. But run a ZR1 against a non existent AWD ZR1? I'd say the AWD will win around the track.

Again, not interested in being a little faster at the expense of the thrill of mastering a RWD beast around a track. I'll take RWD around the track.

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The article at the link that MEDSIN posted says it all. The following is a paragraph straight out of the article talking about the GTR:

"Chuck the GT-R into a corner, any corner, and it sticks through the bend and rockets out the other side. But it never surprises and never actually excites. It's frightening in the same way as commercial air travel. It's the conscious thought of the speed you're traveling and the consequences thereof that raises hairs, not the direct knowledge that you're in control of something special."

This one is on the Vette. The base, C7 Vette which was slower on the drag strip but beat the GTR around the track. Nice:

"And there's the difference: Even with the safety net of PTM, you always feel responsible for the actions of the C7 in a way you don't with the GT-R. Oversteer? Your fault. Understeer? Your fault. A perfectly clipped apex followed by an astonishing corner exit speed? Yep, your fault."
 
#42 ·
I guarantee you that the Cadillac performance engineers are having, or have already had, the same discussion as is ongoing here. We will see, perhaps in another year or so, which side won. If we don't see AWD in a V3, maybe we will in a V4.

Only time will tell.

PS I'd lease an RS6 Avant in a heartbeat. Of course, I'd keep my V wagon.
 
#47 ·
Oh it probably will be RWD, but I don't think GM's engineers are as much the slaves to the M5 as you seem to be suggesting they are. If you think they're not looking long and hard at the 2014 E63, I can promise you you're wrong. No high profile car company is that myopic. Whether they implement AWD or not, it's not going to be because of what the M5 is doing. They're probably not going to pipe fake engine noises through the speakers, either.

If they're smart, and we know they are, they are already testing the M5, the E63, and probably the RS6 too, to see what direction they like better. But regardless, if they decide not to go with AWD they're going to have to put fatter tires in the rear. Merc and BMW had taken two different approaches to making this power level in a sedan manageable, and from what I've read the M5 (the new one) has close to the same issues we do in terms of putting power down. It has slightly larger and wider wheels which helps, but the turbos give it vastly more torque than the V10 M5 had.

Here's a snippet from one review I read from somebody who drove the new M5:

I experienced extreme traction issues though and it was very hard to launch from a dig. On the highway its a different story.
-Why doesnt it have AWD as an option for those who need it?
Sound familiar? I'm sure the V guys are acutely aware of this issue, I'm just hoping they do something to fix it. My preferred solution would be AWD a la the E63, so it still feels like a RWD car just with a lot more straight line traction and the ability to manhandle apexes with authority. :)
 
#48 ·
I am not suggesting that they are slaves to the M5. However, the continued existence of a RWD M5 legitimizes a RWD supersedan. Basically, GM may be able to get away with RWD if the Bavarians are still doing it.

I'm also quite sure that GM has considered the MB and Audi competition in their analysis. Of course no high profile car company is that myopic, and I should think we've traded enough posts now that you would know better than to imply that I'm that naive.

And yes, obviously, the V3 is going to need better traction, especially if it's RWD.

.Jinx
 
#49 ·
Of course no high profile car company is that myopic, and I should think we've traded enough posts now that you would know better than to imply that I'm that naive.
I thought so too until you said "And GM will have a fish-or-cut-bait moment if BMW goes AWD". What I'm saying is no they won't. They use the M5 as a relative benchmark, but nothing BMW does will actively influence GM's direction mid-design. If GM wants to keep it RWD, BMW going to AWD won't change that. If GM likes the idea of AWD and wants to implement it, the M5 staying RWD won't change that.

And frankly I don't think GM needs BMW to legitimize anything they do. The CTS-V came out and destroyed the E60 M5, I'd say at this point GM can write their own ticket. There was no M5 wagon in the US, GM didn't need BMW to legitimize the CTS-V wagon, for example. I'm just saying, even if the next CTS-V is RWD, it's not because the M5 is still RWD. We're way past that now, AWD is completely legit in the world of supercars and sports cars regardless of what BMW is doing, and so is RWD.

I'm just hoping the V team drives the new E63 S and/or the RS6 and decide they like having traction after all, haha. But as with BMW, I don't think GM needs the E63 or the RS6 or the GT-R to legitimize AWD. I think all they need is the realization that having wheelspin at 60 MPH is uncool, and having wheelspin every time you exit a corner is not the fastest way to do it.
 
#50 ·
BMW got caught with their pants down when MB went AWD. AWD M5 is undoubtedly in BMW's future. Question is will AWD make it into the CTS-V before it gets into the M5? It's not if, it's when. Admittedly, I also don't believe CTS-V 3 will debut with available AWD. I'm just confident it's in CTS-V's future.
 
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