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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Yes, thats how I felt with my car, I did not buy a new car to find out that it ...
  1. #16
    1997BlackETC's Avatar
    1997BlackETC is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    Yes, thats how I felt with my car, I did not buy a new car to find out that it had a repainted hood and right front fender, I worried about how well it would hold up in the future. If it was a used car I had bought I would not have complained.

  2. #17
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    Am I the only one that thought of the movie Fargo while reading this thread?

    [Jerry and an irate customer argue over a sealant that the customer had previously indicated he didn't want, after Jerry has gone off to pretend to talk to his boss]
    Jerry Lundegaard: Well, we've never done this before. But seeing as it's special circumstances and all, he says I can knock a hundred dollars off that Trucoat.
    Irate Customer: [stunned that Jerry still intends to charge him for something he didn't order] One hundred... You lied to me, Mr. Lundegaard. You're a bald-faced liar. A... f***ing liar.
    Irate Customer: [to his wife, frustrated] Where's my goddamn checkbook? Let's get this over with.

    tumblr_mbe919y4RU1qzzd6io1_500.jpg

    -Chris
    2005 CTS-V:No Roof|T2+Eibachs|Corsa|UUC:Shifter, 2pc rotors, B-Lines, Motor/Tran Mounts, Diff Bushings|LPE CAI|FFV IntakeTube|Hotchkis Sways|Kooks 1.75 Coated LTs+cats|KARS III |Mamofied Fast90 + NW90|224/228 111+0 XFI/XE-R .609/.588+Dual Springs|ATI 25% UD Pulley|YT 1.7" UltraLites|Melling HiFlow OP|Cloyes Hex Adjust Timing Set|Lucas 42# Flow Matched Injectors|Katech LS9X Twin-Disk ClutchMustang Dyno Tuned (SAE): 412rwhp / 380 rwtq
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  3. #18
    RobF300 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    I think for comparisons sake you should take that little paint meter over to the dealer and measure some of the other cars, maybe its a inconsitancy across the board.

    I know its a lot of money, personally its more than I have ever spent on a car and probably wont spend more than this, but at some point you got to consider moving on. Have they offered to pay for the detail? $1000+ to detail a new car is insane but I guess thats what happens when you live in Beverly Hills.

  4. #19
    TWD3 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by RobF300 View Post
    I think for comparisons sake you should take that little paint meter over to the dealer and measure some of the other cars, maybe its a inconsitancy across the board.

    I know its a lot of money, personally its more than I have ever spent on a car and probably wont spend more than this, but at some point you got to consider moving on. Have they offered to pay for the detail? $1000+ to detail a new car is insane but I guess thats what happens when you live in Beverly Hills.
    I am taking paint depth measurements of other CTS V coupes and will post the results.

  5. #20
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    It's not only car dealers, unfortunately a lot of businesses act this way. They give you a hard way to go hoping you give up. Keep on their asses. Call consumer affairs and make a formal complaint. The dealer will be contacted and they will have to answer for it.
    I would also get estimates from 2 other detailers and get estimates on getting the car repainted. If the price falls under the parameters of small claims court then take the dealership there. They need a lawyer, you don't. With your pics and the estimates you should have a good case. I would also send a letter to the owner return receipt with your issues and request a response in writing saying what they plan to do. If you bust their balls enough they may give in. If not, hopefully you win in court, and you put the money in the bank and you get the car painted in 5 years or so on their dime
    If you financed the car through the dealer I would send a detailed letter to the bank explaining what the dealership did and you don't want to pay for the car because its not worth what you paid. Yes, they will laugh at you. Next, you contact the controller of currency and file a complaint against the bank. I had a pool installed that kept leaking. The ad said 'no interest if paid off in a year', which was through the pool place. It ended up being Wells Fargo bank. I complained to the bank that I am not paying for a pool that leaks. They basically said , tough shit'. I complained to the controller of currency, who contacted Wells Fargo and Wells Fargo contacted me to say they took the money back from the pool guy and I was paid in full. The scumbag, cheating pool guy went out of business and I NEVER paid for the pool. It can't hurt to try. Go after the bank. If you secured your own loan you might be out of luck but if they got you the loan it might work.

    ----------

    One more point. I was told that If you are in litigation regarding a product and you stop making payments the bank can not hurt your credit. I would confirm this with a lawyer and if that's so I'd get them into litigation just do you can stop making payments. The bank might contact the dealer and tell them to make it right because they want their money.

  6. #21
    cdog533's Avatar
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    Quote Originally Posted by RobF300 View Post
    I know its a lot of money, personally its more than I have ever spent on a car and probably wont spend more than this, but at some point you got to consider moving on. Have they offered to pay for the detail? $1000+ to detail a new car is insane but I guess thats what happens when you live in Beverly Hills.
    Not really. A full paint correction could be 20 hours. At $50 an hour (typical detailer fee) that's $1000.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TWD3 View Post
    The detailer feels he can remove the swirl marks however there is very little clear coat left in several areas of the car and the cost for him to perform the work is between $1000 to $1200 depending on how long it takes. Add to this the fact the dealer did not tape up the black chrome prior to taking his dirty wheel to my paint so, the black chrome is ruined and cannot be corrected. The bottom line is with so much paint / clear coat missing the car will need to be repainted far sooner then should be the case for a brand new car. Also down the road when I need to detail my car to maintain a high degree of shine I cannot as again, there is very little clear coat left. Basically moving forward every time I polish my car I may be necessitating a 10k paint job. I did not spend 15k more for a brand new car over used only to worry about what washing, waxing and polishing may do to the paint.

    The damage to my car is in the thousands and when the paint goes off (spots on the hood are already showing signs of clear coat failure) I'm looking at a 10k repaint and the loss of my vehicle for a month or more on a car I purchased brand new on 12/29/12!
    Here's an article on paint thickness: http://www.autopia.org/forum/epic-th...polishing.html I'm not sure on what conclusions to make regarding your situation, as you don't know how much clear you started with....

    You could always email that guy TOWGT, as he's probably the most knowledgeable person in the U.S. regarding a variety of detailing issues.

    Some highlights:
    Modern clear coat paint finishes are so good today that they lull people into thinking that vehicle paint has protection and shine when in reality there is not really much there, the clear coat that has a thickness of ~25.4 µ (micron). As a point of reference a sheet of copy paper is 89 µ.

    A micron (µ) is a metric unit that equals one millionth of a meter, or 1/1000 of a millimetre. A micron is much smaller than a Mil. One (µ) micron is roughly 1/80th of the thickness of a human hair. There are 25.4 millimeters in an inch and a micron is 1/1000 of a millimetre. Using the micron (metric) measurement system gives you a much better idea of paint thickness as the numbers used are so much smaller.

    There are two considerations; how much clear coat and how much ultra violet protection can be removed, they are not interchangeable. The following are the maximum allowable clear coat reductions the major USA car manufacturers will allow before the paint warranty becomes void; Chrysler- 0.5 Mil (12µ) Ford – 0.3 Mil (7.5 µ) GM – 0.5 Mil (12µ)
    (Source - Automotive International)

    Modern Isocyanate resins (clear coat ) finishes are so good today that they lull people into thinking that vehicle paint has protection and shine when in reality there is not really much there, the clear coat that has a thickness of ~25.4 µ (micron). As a point of reference a sheet of copy paper is 89 µ.

    A micron (µ) is a metric unit that equals one millionth of a meter, or 1/1000 of a millimetre. A micron is much smaller than a Mil. A human hair is about 2 Mil (50 µ) thick and individual bacteria are 0.1 mil (2.5µ) in size. There are 25.4 millimeters in an inch and a micron is 1/1000 of a millimetre.

    Using the micron (metric) measurement system gives you a much better idea of paint thickness as the numbers used are so much smaller. Most detailers are or should be aware of how thin clear coat paint is and it puzzles me why people over-polish paint causing it to fail prematurely

    There are two considerations; how much clear coat and how much ultra violet protection can be removed, they are not interchangeable. The following are the maximum allowable clear coat reductions the major USA car manufacturers will allow before the paint warranty becomes void; Chrysler- 0.5 Mil (12µ) Ford – 0.3 Mil (7.5 µ) GM – 0.5 Mil (12µ) (Source - Automotive International) A single sheet of standard printer paper is ~ 7.5 µ ( 3 Mil) thick

    The 0.2 Mil (0.5 µ) is the maximum paint that they are allowed to remove on the assembly line at the factory during their paint sanding and polishing process to remove dirt nibs. This number is based on testing carried out at both General Motors (GM) and Chrysler testing centres. Wet-sanding, compounding and polishing the amount of paint removed with a mild abrasive was ~ 0.1 mil (2.54 µ)

    The clear coat provides gloss plus physical protection from the elements, including ultraviolet (UV) radiation, which is in the upper level of a cured clear coat. Most car manufacturers will only allow ~ 25% of the clear-coat thickness to be removed without voiding the paint warranty and long-term durability problems becoming an issue. That means that if you started off with 50µ of clear coat (this will vary by vehicle manufacturer) you would only be able to remove <12µ without voiding the paint warranty and possibly having a re-paint (Note: this may vary by vehicle mfg).

    Most light surface marring is ~1.27 µ (0 .05 Mils) a surface scratch that can catch your fingernail is ~1.01 µ (~ 0.04 Mils) Using a medium abrasive polish and a rotary polisher will remove approximately ~ 2.5 - 3µ (~ 0. 98 – 0.12 Mil) from the paint surface. To remove a scratch you need to level the paint to its lowest part, so if a scratch is 1 µ that’s the amount of paint (and UV protection) you need to remove to eliminate it. Note: 25.4 µ (micron) = 1 Mil

    Using a medium abrasive polish and a rotary polisher will remove approximately 2.5 - 3µ (0. 1 Mil) from the paint surface, which is typically four passes at 1500-1800 RPM; however many variables such as polish/compound and speed / pressure used that may affect the paint removed)

    A paint thickness reading of > 100 µ (Microns) is reasonably safe for polishing. 80-90 µ, I wouldn't use anything stronger than< 2000 grit polish, 70-80 µ <2500 grit polish and under 70 µ use a glaze. The readings tend to vary from panel to panel and are thinner towards the panel edges and any seams.

    • 200µ + can be expected on older cars that have been hand painted or a re-painted vehicle
    • 100 – 200µ - average paint thickness
    • 80 – 100 µ - thin paint
    • < 80 µ - very thin paint
    Great job going to Innovative! That's the type of professional help that was needed in this case.

    I guess a total repaint is a solution, but you'd need a superb body shop to spray the black diamond and they'd need to do every piece of the car, with the exception of the engine compartment which you should leave alone. Ideally, I would leave the current paint job in place until it failed (if it ever does), then repaint it. Can you work out some cash settlement with the dealer where you keep the funds to use toward a future repaint?

    Of course, you'll want Innovative to remove all of the current swirl marks, etc. and get the paint right. So the cash settlement should cover that as well.

    The black chrome stuff they didn't mask and hit with the buffer is ruined. They need to order you those parts and replace them. Innovative may be able to smooth out the swirls in the headlamps and tail lamps, otherwise they need replacement.

    At the end of the day, you'll probably need to sue.

    NOTE TO DEALERS: DON'T EVER BUFF A CAR YOU STINKIN' HACKS!!!!

  7. #22
    RobF300 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    no way would I want a repainted new car. I dont care who is doing the painting or what it costs- it would be cheaper for the dealer to just replace it and sell the other one after a fresh detail as a demo/used car.

    As for the $50 an hour- ok Ill give you that I didnt look at it that way, I figure they can do it in under two days start to finish and even high end detail guys get $350-$400 for an entire car including jambs, interior, engine compartment, trunk, etc. and that takes one guy at least a day if not longer.

  8. #23
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    Great news! I was contacted by a reporter from the LA Times today. It seems a lot of people read this forum! Anyway he is interested to talk with me and wants to see my Coupe when I get back in town next week. It would be great if the Times ran a story about this ordeal. Apparently it's newsworthy when a dealer ignores a problem like this on a $70,000 + car.

    Attached are some more pictures I got from David at Innovative Detailing today showing just how bad the damage is. Hopefully David can weigh in and answer some of your questions regarding the paint.
    Attached Images

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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    This shot shows damage done to the rear wing / center break light.

  10. #25
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    Wow, that's just crazy, it looks like they did not wash the car before buffing it or something? unreal. Did you go to the upper management at the dealer yet to make this right or even the owner? Like I said, I had to make a lot of noise with my problem, but when I went to the upper management and owner of the dealer they realized they were going to loose a lot of business if they did not make my situation right, hopefully this will work for you and you will not have to go the news article route, it could get really nasty.

  11. #26
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    First step news article, second picking up the new car.
    And to top it off this was a service he did not sign up for, it was forced on him.

  12. #27
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    *neuronbob thanks the car gods that his dealer is a good one*
    Club Malibu and Club Malibu like this.

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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    The pictures are just sad. It's crazy that a dealership would do that to a beautiful car.

  14. #29
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    I've been following this saga on both threads.

    When I bought my Vagon a year and a half ago I had it shipped form Boston on a dealer trade. An hour after I took delivery, I noticed the drivers door had been repainted. Took it right back, and the sales manager was beside himself. The Boston dealer failed to mention the damage, and crappy repaint, to my dealer. I told my guy another repaint was unacceptable on a brand new car.

    They pulled a door from another brand new Black Raven V and put it on my car. That way, I have perfect factory paint on the entire car. Obviously, this is not an option in your situation, but goes to show that some dealers want to do right by their customers, and others do not.

    I hope this works out for you, I'd be sick if I was in your shoes...

  15. #30
    RobF300 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Photos of Martin Cadillac of Beverly Hills $700 paint sealant upgrade

    when I buy new cars I have it right in the contract in writing that if there is any paintwork performed I will refuse the vehicle.

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