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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle! in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by theamcguy Exactly, the spring was put in to reduce gear whine, which it does. The tradeoff is ...
  1. #121
    SoCal_V is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    Quote Originally Posted by theamcguy View Post
    Exactly, the spring was put in to reduce gear whine, which it does. The tradeoff is the rattle, go to a solid isolator and you get gear whine, then there will be complaints about that. Pick your poison. If you want a quiet car then maybe a high performance car is not what you really want.
    Please, a "quiet" high performance car only means things NOT rattling that shouldn't be rattling. Loud exhaust, induction noise, supercharger whine, etc is all fully acceptable. A can of marbles rattling at high dB levels is not acceptable.

    So far no one I know who's installed a solid isolator can hear anything at all. If gear whine is present, we can't hear it.

    On the other hand, the spring rattle is so loud, it's distracting/embarrassing/out of place on a $70k car.

    The solid isolator certainly doesn't seem like a "poison" out of those two scenarios.
    GMX322V S/C and GMX322V S/C like this.

  2. #122
    valdeztkeCTSV is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    Quote Originally Posted by SoCal_V View Post
    Please, a "quiet" high performance car only means things NOT rattling that shouldn't be rattling. Loud exhaust, induction noise, supercharger whine, etc is all fully acceptable. A can of marbles rattling at high dB levels is not acceptable.

    So far no one I know who's installed a solid isolator can hear anything at all. If gear whine is present, we can't hear it.

    On the other hand, the spring rattle is so loud, it's distracting/embarrassing/out of place on a $70k car.

    The solid isolator certainly doesn't seem like a "poison" out of those two scenarios.
    I agree. Anyone who says 'its a performance car, deal with it' clearly hasn't been the one sitting at a traffic light with people staring at your car. This would all be different if I were running a F1R Procharger and a 10 rib setup - but I'm not.

  3. #123
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    I absolutely love this car and will definitley buy another when it come time for a new car despite the few problems I have encountered. However, I will not try to justify its shortcomings by pointing at other manufacturer models shortcomings - thats not rationalizing and it certainly leads to manufacturers allowing these things to slip through the cracks.

    I had my islolator switched to a solid when I was at Jesse's for some upgrades. At the time I had just read GM response on here for the isolator eliminating the gear whine and the rattle was normal. So at the time it was a coin toss for me on whether or not to do the swap but I am very happy I did it now that I look back.

    Its a shame because it seems that GM had good intentions. They wanted to eliminate gear whine which would have hurt sales when potential customers that have no idea how a supercharger works test drove the car and disliked the gear whine.(The path to hell was paved with good intentions). However either they didn't do enough reliability testing and never found that the fix caused a bigger issue in a rattle noise or they decided to go with it because it would eliminate any noise long enough to get the sale. Either way, shame on GM.

    I almost forgot to mention. Driving the V like it was meant to be driven quickly eradicates any small frustrations I may have had with the car in the past. This is truly an amazing vehicle. I would much rather see a post about losing 500-700 pounds from this vehicle.

  4. #124
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    This is Ed Piatek's original response to a previous thread on this topic. Wonder what his position is now?

    "The torsional isolator is used in the CTSv LSA engine to isolate potential gear rattle noise during idle. The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. Purpose of the shaft is to distribute the stresses in the torsional spring. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring material is intentionally harder than the shaft which by design results in visual witness marks and/or limited wear on the shaft. The witness marks and/or limited wear is expected and has been observed on all the Eaton component durability tests, GM engine and vehicle durability tests and on customer vehicles with no impact on the functionality of the spring and isolator. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine.


    Q: Will this shaft wear harm my engine?
    A: No. The visible wear will not damage the engine. The supercharger and the engine were tested and successfully validated to meet all GM durability requirements…which are much more severe than any customer usage.

    Q: What causes this wear?
    A: The isolator contains a torsional spring that fits over the shaft. The purpose of the shaft is to better distribute the stresses in the torsional spring and prolong its life. As the spring goes thru its travel, the inside of the coils can contact the shaft. The spring is a harder material than the shaft…so that when there is contact, the spring will not potentially break. If the spring breaks, then the torsional isolator function is lost.

    Q: Can the shaft wear all the way thru and broken pieces get into my engine?
    A: No. The travel on the spring that is contacting the shaft is limited. It cannot wear all the way thru the shaft. The shaft and isolator are in a sealed cavity, separate from the rest of the supercharger and engine. It cannot be ingested into the engine.

    Q: Can worn bits or wear debris from the shaft get into my engine?
    A: No. Again, the torsional isolator is in a SEALED cavity inside the supercharger. The seals on the bearings have not been compromised and wear debris is fully contained in this cavity.

    Q: Why is the isolator design better than a solid coupling?
    A: The torsional isolator does precisely that – it isolates an even more objectionable gear rattle noise that was being heard inside the vehicle cabin at all times during idle. The solid coupling will not eliminate this noise.

    Q: My car is now quiet after I replaced the isolator w/ a solid coupling…how do you explain that?
    A: If the ONLY modification was the replacement of the isolator w/ solid coupling…then it’s unlikely that it’s completely quiet. Most likely, you WILL have the timing gear rattle noise inside the cabin. Initially, it may sound better because the random “knocking” noise outside the vehicle is reduced…but you’ve now traded that noise for the gear rattle noise. Now…if you also replaced the induction system and exhaust system w/ louder aftermarket/performance parts…then it’s no longer an accurate comparison because you may not hear gear rattle over the increased exhaust and other noises in the cabin at idle. By the way, the torsional isolator is not a serviceable part…and removing the front inlet to replace with another part has warranty implications.

    Q: Will GM be releasing a service fix for the shaft wear?
    A: No. The current torsional isolator design does not diminish or compromise the durability or longevity of the supercharger or the engine. It has been fully validated to that effect. It also provides a benefit to the customer in terms of reduced noise at idle inside the vehicle…where the driver and passengers will be located during vehicle operation."

  5. #125
    GMX322V S/C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wannago View Post
    "Q: My car is now quiet after I replaced the isolator w/ a solid coupling…how do you explain that?
    A: If the ONLY modification was the replacement of the isolator w/ solid coupling…then it’s unlikely that it’s completely quiet. Most likely, you WILL have the timing gear rattle noise inside the cabin."
    Negative. Going on 3 years with no "gear rattle." Anyone else? Maybe we should start a list too.

    I couldn't care less about the shaft wear; I'm satisfied with Mr. Piatek's explanation in that regard. But the can of marbles sound would be unacceptable from a lowly Nissan Versa, much less a world-beating luxury performance car.

  6. #126
    NickCat is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyns View Post
    Wouldn't this mod invalidate the warranty on the supercharger only, then?
    Quote Originally Posted by RippyPartsDept View Post
    Exactly (unless your modification caused something else to break/fail)
    The way that law is generally interpreted by dealers is unless they can prove the modification cause a direct failure in the part that has an issue they can't invalidate the warranty on that particular item.

    Which means if you change the isolator and you have a wheel bearing go bad, they can't relate the two, but if you change the isolator and have have any related engine issues they are free to argue their way out of the warranty repair.

    That all being said, coming from the Subaru side of things, I have seen warranty claims denied on entirely unrelated parts because the modification increased power output of the car... and the base argument was that is that the modification increased wear and tear on the rest of the car so in that particular case they felt justified denying a claim of something "unrelated" like a wheel bearing.

    It's all up to the dealer/manufacturer and how far they are will to stretch the argument. The new law is a great improvement, but certainly no guarantee of coverage.

    That all being said... I only have 2500 miles on my '12 6MT wagon and I don't believe I've heard any rattle yet. By the way people are describing the noise, I'm pretty sure I don't. This is my first high HP american car, so I'm assuming some of the noises I am hearing are just normal V8 stuff. The one I keep hearing is when turning the car off... it's a slight rattle that sounds like internals coming to a halt. Doesn't sound like anything bad, just present. But I've never heard anything out of the ordinary while simply idling the car.

    It might be helpful for Katie if someone here with a particularly noisy example could make a video detailing the sound, when it happens, and the general location of the sound to share. I'm sure the visual aid could only help their plea to get something done about this with a list of names. It would also help those of us out who aren't sure what were listening for in the first place.

  7. #127
    Tyns is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Well, if GM is not allowed to open up the supercharger, they would never know the isolator had been changed. This only becomes a warranty issue if the supercharger fails and is sent to Eaton. My amateur conclusion is this mod will not affect GM warranties.

  8. #128
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    After reading post #124 from Wannago I think I have a different problem than that caused by the isolator. I hear a rhythmic "pinging" sound but only when I'm outside the car with it idling, I hear nothing when inside the car with the door closed. The first time I heard it, the first thing I that came to mind was piston slap. Now I do hear random "knocking" every once in a while inside the car and just about every time I turn the car off, which is what the isolator is suppose to be preventing. I think I might need to make another trip at the dealer.

  9. #129
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    Thrill6, if that is the case then it does sound like another dealer trip would be a very good idea. Please keep us updated, and don't hesitate to send me a private message anytime if you need further assistance.

    Best,

    Katie
    Cadillac Customer Service

  10. #130
    valdeztkeCTSV is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Just wanted to let everyone know that I added a video to my previous blog posts concerning the rattle. www.dcautogeek.com

    Hopefully for those that don't have the rattling yet you can hear what it is some of us are experiencing.

    Katie please feel free to share this video and blog post with the folks at Cadillac thank you.

  11. #131
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    Quote Originally Posted by valdeztkeCTSV View Post
    Just wanted to let everyone know that I added a video to my previous blog posts concerning the rattle. www.dcautogeek.com

    Hopefully for those that don't have the rattling yet you can hear what it is some of us are experiencing.

    Katie please feel free to share this video and blog post with the folks at Cadillac thank you.
    I went to your site and listened to the video. Yes the noise is annoying but you have to realize the car is performing as designed. GM put in the isolator spring to reduce/eliminate gear whine, it does that, but it also creates the new noise. Which I am sure they were fully aware of before release. Dilemma, live with the noise or switch to the solid isolator. Either way Cadillac should not have to pay to fix what is not broke. Just because they upgraded the part on another model in another model year is not justification for the fix. Cars are designed, miles are put on, pieces wear out, they get upgraded on the next redesign. That is the cycle.

  12. #132
    valdeztkeCTSV is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    Quote Originally Posted by theamcguy View Post
    I went to your site and listened to the video. Yes the noise is annoying but you have to realize the car is performing as designed. GM put in the isolator spring to reduce/eliminate gear whine, it does that, but it also creates the new noise. Which I am sure they were fully aware of before release. Dilemma, live with the noise or switch to the solid isolator. Either way Cadillac should not have to pay to fix what is not broke. Just because they upgraded the part on another model in another model year is not justification for the fix. Cars are designed, miles are put on, pieces wear out, they get upgraded on the next redesign. That is the cycle.
    Thanks for your feedback. I can't say that I agree with you. Do you think other people, non-enthusiast would see this issue as the same way? What if it was a power steering belt that squelched and GM said that it was normal? Would that be OK?

    I don't care if GM fixes my car, I just want to make sure they are aware of the issue and are fully prepared to stand by their early position should this become a growing issue.

    Also, never ONCE have I said this was a safety issue or did I say that GM hasn't informed the audience of the sound and what it is. No. The only thing I've said is that they should at the minimum allow users to fix it with a solid isolator without forgoing any other warranty work should that arise at a later time.

    I don't fully understand the people who just come on here and say "live with it".

  13. #133
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    Two years and 21k miles with a solid isolator and no gear whine inside the car. Could it be my loud exhaust? LOL!

    Just adding my data point.

    Hopefully, for the 3rd generation CTS-V, the problem will be fixed if Cadillac chooses to use a supercharger setup.

    Still enjoying the hell out of my ride three years later!

  14. #134
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    Well, I do have some spare parts. I will put a quick video together this weekend to show the difference between the solid coupler in place versus the stock one. As for gear noise transmission to the cabin, I have yet to hear it on any one I installed. It was simply quieter, not an exchange for a new noise. I would not go back to the marble sound, that is for certain. Two hours and $65, no more issue.


  15. #135
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    Re: GM found a fix for the supercharger rattle!

    Quote Originally Posted by theamcguy View Post
    I went to your site and listened to the video. Yes the noise is annoying but you have to realize the car is performing as designed. GM put in the isolator spring to reduce/eliminate gear whine, it does that, but it also creates the new noise. Which I am sure they were fully aware of before release. Dilemma, live with the noise or switch to the solid isolator. Either way Cadillac should not have to pay to fix what is not broke. Just because they upgraded the part on another model in another model year is not justification for the fix. Cars are designed, miles are put on, pieces wear out, they get upgraded on the next redesign. That is the cycle.
    For the umpteenth time:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wannago View Post
    This is Ed Piatek's original response to a previous thread on this topic..."The torsional isolator is used in the CTSv LSA engine to isolate potential gear rattle noise during idle...
    It fails miserably by inducing a rattle of its own and nobody I know of with a solid coupler has heard any "gear rattle noise during idle" inside the cabin or even outside of the car with the hood open. If anyone with a solid coupler has "gear rattle noise during idle," please speak up!

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