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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, How does the V work at the track? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by chrswk I would like to add my 2 cents after spending 2 days with the V at ...
  1. #31
    garfin's Avatar
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrswk View Post
    I would like to add my 2 cents after spending 2 days with the V at the Hockenheimring.

    First I have to say, I would not consider myself an experienced driver (on the street and on the racetrack). As far as racing goes, it basically consists of the 5 days in spent in March with Skip Barber at Sebring (3 day school and 2 day advanced school), racing Spec Miatas, and now the two days in Hockenheim. I feel like I have the theory down pretty well, but I can not comment on practical things like tire pressure, amount of under steer compared to other cars, body roll, etc.

    Regarding the tires, I decided to learn from the reports of others on here (like thebigjimsho and garfin), so I went with 42 psi cold front and 40 psi cold in the rear for the two days. Other than that, the car was stock and still on it's first set of pads and tires (8000+ miles). I got a set of 265/305 Bridgestone RE-11 and Hawk DTC-30 pads last week but decided to go with the stock setup on my first track day.

    The two days consisted of 1 1/2 days of basic exercises (braking, slalom, figure 8 dry/wet, etc. to get a feel for the car) and learning all corners of the track individually and 1/2 day of lapping. Since there were around 150 cars in total, divided in 10 classes, the 1/2 day of lapping consisted of 20 minutes of driving behind the instructors, 20 minutes of free lapping with 4 classes on track and 20 minutes of free lapping with everyone who wanted some more seat time to finish the day off.

    The exercises and lapping behind the instructors didn't pose much of a problem for the V. I could feel the disadvantage of the weight compared to other cars in exercises like a short autocross, but I still got the 4th best time (42.xx seconds) out of 15 in our class (1. race built Renault Clio with sub 39 seconds, 2. Porsche 911 Carrera 4S, 3. Caterham). I kept the hood open as much as possible, just to give it as much cooling as possible in between. The free lapping went pretty well for the first 19 minutes, until just before the start of the last lap a dreaded "Rear Differential Overheating, Reduce Speed"-warning came on. Since I wanted to do a cool down lap anyways, I didn't worry too much. When we pulled back into the paddocks, the rear brakes were still fuming, the front looked fine, tough. I ran the whole day in suspension mode sport and Stabilitrak Off (press twice then hold), but I'm not sure if the system still kicked in and applied brakes when the rear stepped out after accelerating hard out of corners.

    After about 60 minutes downtime, it was time for the second 20 minutes of lapping. I decided to still push it hard in and out of the corners (where the fun is), but take it easy on the straighter parts of the track. I reached around 150 mph on the Parabolika in the first lapping session but limited myself after that to around 80-90 mph. The rear differential warning came on again shortly before the last lap, so I was pretty happy I could get as much seat time as possible for this 2 day event.

    In the end, meeting so many people with all kinds of experience levels and cars on this great track was a lot of fun. I was amazed how well the V handled everything. This thing is fast, even compared to the cars that ran. There was everything imaginable, from Caterhams to Radicals to Formula BMWs to all kind of Porsches (944s, 911s, GT3RSes, etc.) and a large number of Lotuses to F430 Scuderias to BMWs, Renaults, VWs, Nissans (no GT-R) and even a Ford GT. Many were dedicated track cars. Having all of them (well most, about half of the people didn't participated in the last lapping session) run at the same time was truly awesome. Nothing beats having a Scuderia on your ass at the track in and seeing it slowly catch up after accelerating out of the corner. Well, it felt slow even tough it was probably not even close, but it's still awesome to see a four door saloon not being completely outclassed by a $200'000+ car.

    Next up for me are the new tires, a rear differential cooler (still debating which one, GM, D3 or W4M), 2 piece Alcon rotors with the DTC-30 pads and probably a small upgrade consisting of CAI, lower pulley, heat exchanger, thermostat, tune and SRP pedals, it's nearly impossible to use regular heel-toe with the stock ones.

    Sorry this got so long...

    -Chris
    Fantastic write-up!! Thanks for sharing!

    It definitely sounds like you had a blast and were certainly on a good learning curve - to the point where you were acquitting yourself very well.

    The more often I read reports like this, the more obvious it seems that being able to realize the full potential of the V is best done on a road course venue where one can appreciate and make use of the acceleration, handling, braking and smoothness, basically all at the same time (i.e. a few laps!)

    Congratulations on your participation in such a successful event!!

    Best regards,

    Elie

  2. #32
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  3. #33
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    post up the video from the go pro.

  4. #34
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by odla View Post
    post up the video from the go pro.
    I used the wrong settings, it was in the wrong casing, it was in a crappy position and I forgot to record the second session. But here it is:

    ACS Hockenheimring 2010-09-10 Part 1 of 2


    ACS Hockenheimring 2010-09-10 Part 2 of 2

  5. #35
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Great pics and vids! Looks like a fun track.

    This was the thread I was originally going to reply to, but I couldn't find it. Now that it's back at the top and I could find it again, I figured I would post the link to the new thread I started responding to the OP's original question:

    http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...-thoughts.html

  6. #36
    CruzanTom is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    I have had two trips to the Carolina MotorSports Park in SC. It is a 2.3 mile, 14-turn road course. The V is heavier but has more power than most other cars on the course. If you drive in automatic, watch out for transmission downshifting as you exit corners - easy to get the back end loose. CMSP staff were surprised with the responsiveness of the V throttle and the V's handling.

    As for brakes, the V will develop brake fade at moderate driving. Last Friday, after heavy driving, I lost brakes using the stock DOT 3 brake fluid. The weight of the V really punishes the brakes if you drive hard into the turns. After losing brakes, I engine braked-braked to the garage and I bled, drained and replaced with DOT 4.

    As for tires, the CMSP staff recommend 40 psi. The stock Michelin Pilot tires have cording issues, especially on the left front, on road courses. I have plenty of tread at center but the outer edge is gone. I was told by someone knowledgeable that this is an issue no matter what car, so it is a Michelin problem, not a V problem. I am buying a set of Bridgestone RE-11 tomorrow. I'll be going back to CMSP as soon as I can schedule it.

  7. #37
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by CruzanTom View Post
    As for brakes, the V will develop brake fade at moderate driving. Last Friday, after heavy driving, I lost brakes using the stock DOT 3 brake fluid. The weight of the V really punishes the brakes if you drive hard into the turns. After losing brakes, I engine braked-braked to the garage and I bled, drained and replaced with DOT 4.
    Whoa, I'm glad nothing happened. Loosing the brakes usually ends in disaster. I will replace the brake fluid with Castrol SRF as soon as I receive the Alcon rotors and steel brake lines.

  8. #38
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Short-Throw View Post
    To the OP, I love this car as if it were still day one, more-so than many of the sports cars I have owned, but if you've driven any car under 3400lbs on track, you will not like how the V handles on a road circuit. It's capable of some very respectable times but not repeatedly without digging into your wallet for consumables. Like many have already mentioned, it's too heavy for HPDE use. If you don't have the optional diff cooler forget it. Those that don't have the diff cooler and haven't experienced any issues are simply not driving the car very hard. That being said it's still a blast to drive on track as any car is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fubar75207 View Post
    I agree the 45lbs of tire pressure sounds like a bad idea but I can honestly say I've never tried it. As for the trans cooler, I disagree. I was very cognizant of trans temp and it stayed in an acceptable range. The motor was a different story.
    When I'm right, I'm right but when I'm wrong I admit it (sometimes). I felt compelled to update my original reply and concede that the CTS-V probably needs the dif cooler for track days. My first track day with the V, I was one of two people running the track and I guess I made a lot of short sessions. I recently went to another track event where the track was in heavy use, so I ran my full 30 minutes when it was my session. It the second scenario my trans temp alert came on multiple times. The diff cooler is a 'must' for me in the future.

  9. #39
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    I'm heading to our local CTS-V invitational trackday at MSR Houston on October 16th. Should be fun.

  10. #40
    StoopidSavant is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    45 psig is not out of the question. It states on page 5-74 in the 2009 Owner's Manual:

    High-Speed Operation

    If your vehicle has 235/50ZR18, 255/40ZR19 or
    285/35ZR19 size tires, they will require inflation
    pressure adjustment when driving your vehicle at speeds
    of 100 mph (160 km/h) or higher. Set the cold inflation
    pressure to the maximum inflation pressure shown on the
    tire sidewall, or 44 psi (300 kPa), whichever is lower. See
    the example following. When you end this high-speed
    driving, return the tires to the cold tire inflation pressure
    shown on the Tire and Loading Information label. See
    Loading the Vehicle on page 4-21 and Inflation - Tire
    Pressure on page 5-72.
    Example:
    You will find the maximum load and inflation pressure
    molded on the tire’s sidewall, in small letters, near
    the rim flange. It will read something like this: Maximum
    load 690 kg (1521 lbs) 300 kPa (44 psi) Max. Press.
    For this example, you would set the inflation pressure for
    high-speed driving at 44 psi (300 kPa).

  11. #41
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by StoopidSavant View Post
    45 psig is not out of the question. It states on page 5-74 in the 2009 Owner's Manual:

    High-Speed Operation

    If your vehicle has 235/50ZR18, 255/40ZR19 or
    285/35ZR19 size tires, they will require inflation
    pressure adjustment when driving your vehicle at speeds
    of 100 mph (160 km/h) or higher. Set the cold inflation
    pressure to the maximum inflation pressure shown on the
    tire sidewall, or 44 psi (300 kPa), whichever is lower. See
    the example following. When you end this high-speed
    driving, return the tires to the cold tire inflation pressure
    shown on the Tire and Loading Information label. See
    Loading the Vehicle on page 4-21 and Inflation - Tire
    Pressure on page 5-72.
    Example:
    You will find the maximum load and inflation pressure
    molded on the tire’s sidewall, in small letters, near
    the rim flange. It will read something like this: Maximum
    load 690 kg (1521 lbs) 300 kPa (44 psi) Max. Press.
    For this example, you would set the inflation pressure for
    high-speed driving at 44 psi (300 kPa).
    I saw that in the manual too, and I think the manual is crazy, if they're talking about cold tire pressure. 44psi cold will equate to about 53-55 psi hot, which exceeds the maximum pressure rating of the tire. That much pressure will also cause a scary lack of grip and some very squirly handling.

    If they're talking about 44 psi hot, then that's OK as a MAX, but I don't think they are.

  12. #42
    ErikH is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Definitely recommend a diff cooler and DOT4 for track days- I ran both at the track. Ran Willow Springs 5ea x 30min sessions with Open Track Racing in September and no issues with the diff or brake fade. Multiple Porsche drivers stopped by after sessions to see what I was driving because they didn't like being passed by a 4 dr on the track! You will definitely feel the weight of the car through the tighter turns=slower, but you reel them in nicely everywhere else. Brakes/braking distance is as good as any of the 911s and M3s I ran with out there. I tried several tire pressures and liked 36psi hot. The PS2s are certainly scrubbed but held in there- I was impressed about their traction for a street tire, never got that greasy feeling. May want to look into a CGLock-I have the Recaro's but I felt that wasn't enough several times so I appreciated the ability to lock myself down into the seat. Have fun and keep the shiny side up!

  13. #43
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikH View Post
    Definitely recommend a diff cooler and DOT4 for track days- I ran both at the track. Ran Willow Springs 5ea x 30min sessions with Open Track Racing in September and no issues with the diff or brake fade. Multiple Porsche drivers stopped by after sessions to see what I was driving because they didn't like being passed by a 4 dr on the track! You will definitely feel the weight of the car through the tighter turns=slower, but you reel them in nicely everywhere else. Brakes/braking distance is as good as any of the 911s and M3s I ran with out there. I tried several tire pressures and liked 36psi hot. The PS2s are certainly scrubbed but held in there- I was impressed about their traction for a street tire, never got that greasy feeling. May want to look into a CGLock-I have the Recaro's but I felt that wasn't enough several times so I appreciated the ability to lock myself down into the seat. Have fun and keep the shiny side up!
    Sounds like you had a fantastic day! I would definitely endorse the idea of installing a CG Lock as well to help keep you in the proper driving position. I'm used to the 5 pt. harness that was in my Camaro and this is probably is the best arrangement available without chopping up your interior!

    I've found an inexpensive alternative to DOT 4 brake fluid - that being Ford (Motorcraft) Heavy-Duty DOT 3. This fluid has a higher dry boiling point (550 degrees) than most DOT 4 fluids, but a slightly lower wet boiling point (290). The trick is to not let this fluid remain in your system for too long. I've never had a problem with brake fade or boiled fluid in 11 years of lapping with using this fluid, bleeding the system at the beginning of each season and putting fresh fluid in. Interestingly enough, DOT 4 fluid tends to absorb moisture (thereby lowering the fluid's boiling point) at a faster rate than DOT 3 fluid, so the need to swap out your brake fluid frequently is pretty well a wash between the Ford DOT 3 and DOT 4. The good news is that the Ford DOT 3 is priced typically as a regular DOT 3 fluid and will do a great job for those of us who participate in 2-3 lapping events each season.

    Best regards,

    Elie

  14. #44
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by garfin View Post
    Sounds like you had a fantastic day! I would definitely endorse the idea of installing a CG Lock as well to help keep you in the proper driving position. I'm used to the 5 pt. harness that was in my Camaro and this is probably is the best arrangement available without chopping up your interior!

    I've found an inexpensive alternative to DOT 4 brake fluid - that being Ford (Motorcraft) Heavy-Duty DOT 3. This fluid has a higher dry boiling point (550 degrees) than most DOT 4 fluids, but a slightly lower wet boiling point (290). The trick is to not let this fluid remain in your system for too long. I've never had a problem with brake fade or boiled fluid in 11 years of lapping with using this fluid, bleeding the system at the beginning of each season and putting fresh fluid in. Interestingly enough, DOT 4 fluid tends to absorb moisture (thereby lowering the fluid's boiling point) at a faster rate than DOT 3 fluid, so the need to swap out your brake fluid frequently is pretty well a wash between the Ford DOT 3 and DOT 4. The good news is that the Ford DOT 3 is priced typically as a regular DOT 3 fluid and will do a great job for those of us who participate in 2-3 lapping events each season.

    Best regards,

    Elie
    I still have a can of unopened Motorcraft DOT3 I bought for my SHO 11+ years ago. Unopened is a loose term. The cap has never come off but it's about to by the rust build-up around the neck of the bottle. But it was a good fluid back in the day. On a $70k world beating sports sedan? $13 for a half liter bottle of Motul 600 is just fine for me...


    -- We miss you, JD (Dirt_Cheap_Fleetwood)


  15. #45
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    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    I still have a can of unopened Motorcraft DOT3 I bought for my SHO 11+ years ago. Unopened is a loose term. The cap has never come off but it's about to by the rust build-up around the neck of the bottle. But it was a good fluid back in the day. On a $70k world beating sports sedan? $13 for a half liter bottle of Motul 600 is just fine for me...
    I definitely agree! So... I gotta ask... just out of curiosity... is that unopened can metal or plastic? Given the vintage, I'm guessin' that it's metal. I'm definitetly thinkin' that you and I are from the same focus and generation... and I don't trust the plastic bottles that we get now. The old metal cans were great for preventing moisture osmosis, the plastic bottles, not so much.

    Bottom line is that we gotta swap our brake fluid at least at the beginning of the season, and maybe 1/2 way through the season as well, depending on how often we track our cars. Maybe even after each event, depending on how hard we are on the brakes.

    Best regards,

    Elie

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