How does the V work at the track? - Page 2
Cadillac
 

Cadillac Forums | Help Us Help You | Advertise | Cadillac Parts | Cadillac News | Cadillac Classifieds / (Old System)

Cadillac Technical Archive | Cadillac Dealers | Cadillac Reviews | Cadillac Dealer Reviews | Cadillac Vendors

CadillacForums.com is the premier Cadillac Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 82
Like Tree1Likes
2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, How does the V work at the track? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by Short-Throw You're joking right? To the OP, I love this car as if it were still day ...
  1. #16
    thebigjimsho's Avatar
    thebigjimsho is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
    Automobile(s): ZIP
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In the barrel of a gun...
    Posts
    49,414

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Short-Throw View Post
    You're joking right?



    To the OP, I love this car as if it were still day one, more-so than many of the sports cars I have owned, but if you've driven any car under 3400lbs on track, you will not like how the V handles on a road circuit. It's capable of some very respectable times but not repeatedly without digging into your wallet for consumables. Like many have already mentioned, it's too heavy for HPDE use. If you don't have the optional diff cooler forget it. Those that don't have the diff cooler and haven't experienced any issues are simply not driving the car very hard. That being said it's still a blast to drive on track as any car is.
    Nope, not joking at all. I even got to talk to a Michelin engineer at Moticello and I told him I was running about 45psi hot on the fronts and he said, exactly: "That sounds about right."

    I scrubbed off a lot of outer tread at Summit Point Main in June running hot pressures of about 40-42 all around. At Waterford Hills, the front PS2s were howling for their lives at 40psi hot. 2 increases, ending at 45-46psi hot and they were much more stable with much less wear.


    As for diff coolers, I think you're a little full of yourself. I ran plenty hard at those 2 track days, with the Summit day well into the 90s and had no issues. Now, I've never run on stock fluid so I don't know if the Amsoil makes a difference. But, again, no issues...

  2. #17
    Tony407 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): None
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    1,149

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fubar75207 View Post
    I agree the 45lbs of tire pressure sounds like a bad idea but I can honestly say I've never tried it.
    The first time I tracked a car the venue required this much pressure. In essence, it was their way of limiting the chances of you rolling a tire. However, with that much pressure I found my lap times suffering. Just by dropping 5 psi (or more) I immediately noticed much better handling and corresponding lap times. I think with our 19" wheels and tires we shouldn't have to worry about rolling a tire as long as we're not severely under-inflated.

    Tony

  3. #18
    thebigjimsho's Avatar
    thebigjimsho is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
    Automobile(s): ZIP
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In the barrel of a gun...
    Posts
    49,414

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony407 View Post
    The first time I tracked a car the venue required this much pressure. In essence, it was their way of limiting the chances of you rolling a tire. However, with that much pressure I found my lap times suffering. Just by dropping 5 psi (or more) I immediately noticed much better handling and corresponding lap times. I think with our 19" wheels and tires we shouldn't have to worry about rolling a tire as long as we're not severely under-inflated.

    Tony
    I can show you my front tires that had even tread from inside to out...until my track days.

  4. #19
    Tony407 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): None
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    1,149

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    I can show you my front tires that had even tread from inside to out...until my track days.
    I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that after track days you have uneven wear? At 45 psi?

    I can show you all 4 of my OEM wheels and tires (which have become dedicated track wheels/tires) which have nearly-even tread, and this is with 2 track days and 2 autocross days. Although the shoulders on the front tires are a little more worn than the centers (maybe the rears too?), I would prefer this with a slightly lower psi and being able to shave about 5 seconds off my lap time.

    Tony

  5. #20
    ekyub is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): None
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    104

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Honestly I'm a little surprised there aren't many V owners who track their car. But I guess the target market is more street brawler.

  6. #21
    Tony407 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): None
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    1,149

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    I can show you my front tires that had even tread from inside to out...until my track days.
    Maybe if you were thelittlejimsho you wouldn't need so much pressure in your tires to support all the extra weight?

    Tony

  7. #22
    backup is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 2009 CTSV, silver, manual
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    213

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z06ified View Post
    I'm going to find out in less than 2 weeks when I take my V to Monticello as part of a NASA HPDE. I'm curious as to how it will perform relative to my '02 Z06, which I currently have nearly all of my track time in, and has been a phenomenal track car. I know the weight will be a factor as I'm looking at almost exactly 1,000 lbs. heavier than my Z06. But I think the better steering and feedback from the chassis, coupled with the magnetic ride control and huge torque of the LSA will compensate for the weight issue. I'll post my thoughts after I try it.
    In my experience in a couple sessions, a stock V is very similar in track times to a stock C5 Z06 or base C6. The weight makes cornering speeds slower but you can make up a lot in the straights and on corner exit. C6 Z06 is a lot faster. Stock brake pads will glaze if really going at it, and the rear diff will overheat at >9/10ths. Fortunately HPDE is not a race, so if you get a diff overtemp alarm just slow down and let it cool for a lap or two. Power oversteer is easy, I ran in competition mode and found it to be useful. It does have body roll though, I would like athird suspension setting for "track", something stiffer than sport.

  8. #23
    thebigjimsho's Avatar
    thebigjimsho is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
    Automobile(s): ZIP
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In the barrel of a gun...
    Posts
    49,414

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony407 View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that after track days you have uneven wear? At 45 psi?

    I can show you all 4 of my OEM wheels and tires (which have become dedicated track wheels/tires) which have nearly-even tread, and this is with 2 track days and 2 autocross days. Although the shoulders on the front tires are a little more worn than the centers (maybe the rears too?), I would prefer this with a slightly lower psi and being able to shave about 5 seconds off my lap time.

    Tony
    At Summit Point, I did wear off some of the outer shoulders as I had the pressures at about 40psi hot. But it's not the tightest track. Waterford Hills is a different story. I could see the amount of wear the first 2 sessions as the front tires took a beating. They were almost bald on the outer shoulders after those 2 sessions. I finished 3 more after bumping up the pressures with minimal wear.

    The PS2s have less tread on the outer shoulders anyway, so you're going to wear down the outers more quickly than the rest of the tire, but it was more pronounced.

  9. #24
    mannyz is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 2003 CTS(Sold) Black 09 V
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Age
    27
    Posts
    457

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by backup View Post
    In my experience in a couple sessions, a stock V is very similar in track times to a stock C5 Z06 or base C6. The weight makes cornering speeds slower but you can make up a lot in the straights and on corner exit. C6 Z06 is a lot faster. Stock brake pads will glaze if really going at it, and the rear diff will overheat at >9/10ths. Fortunately HPDE is not a race, so if you get a diff overtemp alarm just slow down and let it cool for a lap or two. Power oversteer is easy, I ran in competition mode and found it to be useful. It does have body roll though, I would like athird suspension setting for "track", something stiffer than sport.
    I don't mean to thread jack or anything but figured I'd ask this question here instead of making another thread. Can having old/bad differential fluid cause you to miss shifts? Grind gears, etc? Would it affect that at all?

  10. #25
    Short-Throw's Avatar
    Short-Throw is offline CadillacOwners First 09 CTS-V Owner
    Automobile(s): 09 CTS-V, 08 Escalade
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    424

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by thebigjimsho View Post
    Nope, not joking at all. I even got to talk to a Michelin engineer at Moticello and I told him I was running about 45psi hot on the fronts and he said, exactly: "That sounds about right."

    I scrubbed off a lot of outer tread at Summit Point Main in June running hot pressures of about 40-42 all around. At Waterford Hills, the front PS2s were howling for their lives at 40psi hot. 2 increases, ending at 45-46psi hot and they were much more stable with much less wear.

    As for diff coolers, I think you're a little full of yourself. I ran plenty hard at those 2 track days, with the Summit day well into the 90s and had no issues. Now, I've never run on stock fluid so I don't know if the Amsoil makes a difference. But, again, no issues...

    Sorry but the heavier the car, the more the need to rotate the car to get it through the corners, especially with a stock alignment. We teach this to law enforcement on a weekly basis at Autobahn with the big sedans. I concur that tire pressure is key but if you're wearing out your edges under 45psi, it tells me that the car is being pushed and not rotated -- that's not only a slower way around the track, but harder on tires than necessary.

    As far as the diff cooler, there are forum members here who have experienced the hot diff warning early on, some posted about, some did not. I mentioned this possibility almost two years ago before anyone had even tracked one. We have 3 CTS-Vs (one of them a new V coupe) in our performance fleet; they were delivered from GM with mandatory diff coolers. If you've had no problem to date that's awesome. As long as you're enjoying the car with no warnings carry on.

  11. #26
    Tony407 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): None
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    1,149

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Short-Throw View Post
    Sorry but the heavier the car, the more the need to rotate the car to get it through the corners, especially with a stock alignment. We teach this to law enforcement on a weekly basis at Autobahn with the big sedans.
    Would you please elaborate on what you mean by having to "rotate" the car to get it through the corners?

    Not that I think it matters, but I am ex-law enforcement and was a police driving instructor for 11 years. I have a decent amount of experience with big sedans.

    Tony

  12. #27
    Short-Throw's Avatar
    Short-Throw is offline CadillacOwners First 09 CTS-V Owner
    Automobile(s): 09 CTS-V, 08 Escalade
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    424

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony407 View Post
    Would you please elaborate on what you mean by having to "rotate" the car to get it through the corners?

    Not that I think it matters, but I am ex-law enforcement and was a police driving instructor for 11 years. I have a decent amount of experience with big sedans.

    Tony
    Hi Tony,

    I'm not aware of every program available to police. Did you teach officers right out of the Academy? In Glenview, IL for example officers can go through an 8-hour tactical police driving certification (or recertification) program.


    In a nutshell -- weight transfer by proper trail-braking. Most HPDErs are off the brakes way too early, or too late. There's an art to having the rear end consistently rotate while in control of the vehicle with minimal hand correction. I'm not talking about drifting or screeching tires. Many may also 'throttle steer' to compensate for premature braking as they roll into a corner which is also slower. A skid-pad car is ideal for learning this and those that have been to Bondurant or Spring Mountain have most likely experienced this.

    Autobahn works with Naperville, Westmont and other western suburb forces of Chicago. These officers receive driver training early on in their career then sparsely going forward. One wouldn't suspect it, but there are more police fender bender incidents than one would expect. We have had fantastic feedback from the officers that have come for continuing driver training. This is an optional program that each department chief approves. Ironically the program started after a chief of police from a neighboring suburb came to the club as a guest years ago and drove his Corvette on track with an instructor realizing there was more to car control then he realized. Also, I'm an not saying that police drivers ed is not sufficient, just that more seat time and continuing education make them better drivers. Seat time is a commodity we are all short on, there can never be too much.

    I'd be happy to discuss further through a PM or via voice if you'd like.

    Mike

  13. #28
    thebigjimsho's Avatar
    thebigjimsho is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
    Automobile(s): ZIP
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    In the barrel of a gun...
    Posts
    49,414

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Short-Throw View Post
    Sorry but the heavier the car, the more the need to rotate the car to get it through the corners, especially with a stock alignment. We teach this to law enforcement on a weekly basis at Autobahn with the big sedans. I concur that tire pressure is key but if you're wearing out your edges under 45psi, it tells me that the car is being pushed and not rotated -- that's not only a slower way around the track, but harder on tires than necessary.

    As far as the diff cooler, there are forum members here who have experienced the hot diff warning early on, some posted about, some did not. I mentioned this possibility almost two years ago before anyone had even tracked one. We have 3 CTS-Vs (one of them a new V coupe) in our performance fleet; they were delivered from GM with mandatory diff coolers. If you've had no problem to date that's awesome. As long as you're enjoying the car with no warnings carry on.
    At Summit Point I was able to keep the V settled through Turn 5 and keep it from plowing too much throughout to Turn 9. I'll admit that on the first couple sessions, I needed to figure out the limitations and how to deal with them. But later, I did OK. As for the tiny and tight Waterford Hills, there are some series of corners that it's nearly impossible to set the V the way you'd normally like. Ultimately, I pumped up the pressures and Michelin's own engineer agreed with the pressures I ran. That's good enough for me.

    And I'm well aware of the diff overheat issue. I've had my eye on adding a cooler for awhile. But I'll also entertain the idea that changing the fluid to Amsoil may do just enough to keep the temps at bay. Who knows?

  14. #29
    OldRoadDawg's Avatar
    OldRoadDawg is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): 2009 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Sparks, NV
    Posts
    1,738

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    Quote Originally Posted by Short-Throw View Post
    ..... I'm an not saying that police drivers ed is not sufficient, just that more seat time and continuing education make them better drivers.
    You stirred up some nostalgic thoughts from years ago... of times at the CHP academy and out on the road, ... when the reactions were quicker and the eyesight was sharper.



    Oops! Sorry for the thread jack. Back to the 'V' and its road course capabilities.

  15. #30
    chrswk's Avatar
    chrswk is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 2009 CTS-V Sedan
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Age
    28
    Posts
    143

    Re: How does the V work at the track?

    I would like to add my 2 cents after spending 2 days with the V at the Hockenheimring.

    First I have to say, I would not consider myself an experienced driver (on the street and on the racetrack). As far as racing goes, it basically consists of the 5 days in spent in March with Skip Barber at Sebring (3 day school and 2 day advanced school), racing Spec Miatas, and now the two days in Hockenheim. I feel like I have the theory down pretty well, but I can not comment on practical things like tire pressure, amount of under steer compared to other cars, body roll, etc.

    Regarding the tires, I decided to learn from the reports of others on here (like thebigjimsho and garfin), so I went with 42 psi cold front and 40 psi cold in the rear for the two days. Other than that, the car was stock and still on it's first set of pads and tires (8000+ miles). I got a set of 265/305 Bridgestone RE-11 and Hawk DTC-30 pads last week but decided to go with the stock setup on my first track day.

    The two days consisted of 1 1/2 days of basic exercises (braking, slalom, figure 8 dry/wet, etc. to get a feel for the car) and learning all corners of the track individually and 1/2 day of lapping. Since there were around 150 cars in total, divided in 10 classes, the 1/2 day of lapping consisted of 20 minutes of driving behind the instructors, 20 minutes of free lapping with 4 classes on track and 20 minutes of free lapping with everyone who wanted some more seat time to finish the day off.

    The exercises and lapping behind the instructors didn't pose much of a problem for the V. I could feel the disadvantage of the weight compared to other cars in exercises like a short autocross, but I still got the 4th best time (42.xx seconds) out of 15 in our class (1. race built Renault Clio with sub 39 seconds, 2. Porsche 911 Carrera 4S, 3. Caterham). I kept the hood open as much as possible, just to give it as much cooling as possible in between. The free lapping went pretty well for the first 19 minutes, until just before the start of the last lap a dreaded "Rear Differential Overheating, Reduce Speed"-warning came on. Since I wanted to do a cool down lap anyways, I didn't worry too much. When we pulled back into the paddocks, the rear brakes were still fuming, the front looked fine, tough. I ran the whole day in suspension mode sport and Stabilitrak Off (press twice then hold), but I'm not sure if the system still kicked in and applied brakes when the rear stepped out after accelerating hard out of corners.

    After about 60 minutes downtime, it was time for the second 20 minutes of lapping. I decided to still push it hard in and out of the corners (where the fun is), but take it easy on the straighter parts of the track. I reached around 150 mph on the Parabolika in the first lapping session but limited myself after that to around 80-90 mph. The rear differential warning came on again shortly before the last lap, so I was pretty happy I could get as much seat time as possible for this 2 day event.

    In the end, meeting so many people with all kinds of experience levels and cars on this great track was a lot of fun. I was amazed how well the V handled everything. This thing is fast, even compared to the cars that ran. There was everything imaginable, from Caterhams to Radicals to Formula BMWs to all kind of Porsches (944s, 911s, GT3RSes, etc.) and a large number of Lotuses to F430 Scuderias to BMWs, Renaults, VWs, Nissans (no GT-R) and even a Ford GT. Many were dedicated track cars. Having all of them (well most, about half of the people didn't participated in the last lapping session) run at the same time was truly awesome. Nothing beats having a Scuderia on your ass at the track in and seeing it slowly catch up after accelerating out of the corner. Well, it felt slow even tough it was probably not even close, but it's still awesome to see a four door saloon not being completely outclassed by a $200'000+ car.

    Next up for me are the new tires, a rear differential cooler (still debating which one, GM, D3 or W4M), 2 piece Alcon rotors with the DTC-30 pads and probably a small upgrade consisting of CAI, lower pulley, heat exchanger, thermostat, tune and SRP pedals, it's nearly impossible to use regular heel-toe with the stock ones.

    Sorry this got so long...

    -Chris

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Bookmarks

Cadillac Posting Rules

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Read about Lincoln | Buick | Kia Forte Forum
Need products for your Cadillac? Check out your options at the links below:

custom floor mats | Cadillac Chrome and Black Chrome Wheels | window tinting