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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11 in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by CIWS The last time I looked the difference between the 09V and the 1st Gen V was ...
  1. #16
    Jpjr is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Quote Originally Posted by CIWS View Post
    The last time I looked the difference between the 09V and the 1st Gen V was more than adding 150HP. The whole car is completely new.

    If the price is too much then keep (or buy) and existing CTS-V and stick a S/C on it. You'll end up in the same ballpark with power for a lot less money, if that's all you're looking for.
    The last time I looked there is a lot more different about the base CTS too and it is not 18k more money than the old version. The premium is mainly for the power and not the extra build costs.

  2. #17
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    The # should be out soon. If the car mags are testing the V now, they usually have an MSRP to go along with it.

  3. #18
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpjr View Post
    The last time I looked there is a lot more different about the base CTS too and it is not 18k more money than the old version. The premium is mainly for the power and not the extra build costs.
    So you think the only real difference between an 08 / 09 CTS and a CTS-V is in the power plant ? Come on dude, the CTS-V actually has the electronic e-brake button in it vs a blank.

    Look at the cost difference between a loaded STS and an STS-V.

  4. #19
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Quote Originally Posted by CIWS View Post
    So you think the only real difference between an 08 / 09 CTS and a CTS-V is in the power plant ? Come on dude, the CTS-V actually has the electronic e-brake button in it vs a blank.

    Look at the cost difference between a loaded STS and an STS-V.
    I am kidding around, not trying to argue

    My point is best illustrated with an example:

    The C6 base Vette had all kinds of new technology and design from the C5 base Vette, yet it actually debuted with a lower sticker price.

    Often times the standard upgrades that go along with rolling a model forward have less to do with price than does the marketing/slotting of the vehicle.

    With the 09 V2, I don't think it literally costs GM $18k more to build it than the V1. I think a lot of that premium is based on where comparably equipped vehicles sell. In other words, I think the profit margin on the V2 is much higher than the V1, all esle equal but increased output.

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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpjr View Post
    With the 09 V2, I don't think it literally costs GM $18k more to build it than the V1. I think a lot of that premium is based on where comparably equipped vehicles sell. In other words, I think the profit margin on the V2 is much higher than the V1, all esle equal but increased output.
    I certainly don't think it cost that much more to build. But in relation to MSRP, that's probably about where it's going to sell for. At least initially, depends on what the economy does after that.

  6. #21
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    The price we all paid for the V1 has absolutely nothing to do with what GM will decide the base price of the V2 will be. The V1 is history and will not be in the marketplace to compete with the V2. GM will price the V2 to compete with similar cars that a buyer could choose from at the same point in time. If GM makes more or less profit on the V2 vs V1 that is strictly a function of future demand in a particular car segment and how it compares to the competition. Personally, I think the V2 will easily compete at $68K with any 4 door luxury performance sedan although we all know that GM has the future M5 in their sights.

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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Its not what it costs GM for the upgrades. Its what we will pay at the time. They have to move them once they make them. I think they are waiting so long to release the pricing because things are a little tough now. If things get better and fuel prices keep droppin', they can ask a little more.

  8. #23
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich H View Post
    The price we all paid for the V1 has absolutely nothing to do with what GM will decide the base price of the V2 will be. The V1 is history and will not be in the marketplace to compete with the V2. GM will price the V2 to compete with similar cars that a buyer could choose from at the same point in time. If GM makes more or less profit on the V2 vs V1 that is strictly a function of future demand in a particular car segment and how it compares to the competition. Personally, I think the V2 will easily compete at $68K with any 4 door luxury performance sedan although we all know that GM has the future M5 in their sights.
    ?? Having the option to price this car between $60-70k while still being in the same segment gives them huge discretion on margin. Any price in this range still puts them in the same class and would be within the expectations of this forum from what I have read. It all comes down to margin versus volume.

  9. #24
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    The other pricing factor that may come into effect for some potential owners would be the way GMAC is changing their leases now. Not sure if or how it will affect the V2, but it's something else that could remove some potential owners who were looking at leasing one.

  10. #25
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Just to clear a few things up:

    The 2008+ CTS was brought to the market with an extremely low margin for the Dealers in an attempt to guarantee the car's success. I think everyone at GM knew they were sitting on a winner, and they wanted to be sure that the magazines and the public would be stunned at the price point for such a nice car. Over the last 12 months, the MSRP has slowly increased by approximately $2,500, part to give Dealers a little more margin and partly due to rising costs of steel, copper and other materials.

    As far as cost comparisons to the first generation V6 CTS, keep in mind that even though the CTS is a lot nicer than Gen.1, there's not a lot of more expensive items on it- a lot of styling changes that improved the car, but not much to raise the cost. The 2008s don't have paddle shifters, still have cast iron rotors, the same wheel sizes, 235 tires, a Naturally Aspirated 3.6L engine, etc, etc. The V model is going to have a bunch of items that cost quite a bit more than the equipment on the Gen.1 V, such as the two piece rotors, larger and wider wheels, wider tires, larger engine, Supercharger, intercooler, extra pulleys, magnetic ride control, Alcantara steering wheel, etc.... I know it seems like an easy comparison to make, but there's a little more to it.

    Also keep in mind that a Gen.1 V6 CTS could barely get up to $45k, even loaded. A gen.1 V with FG2 and a roof was $55k ($10k difference for those keeping score at home). It's now possible to get a V6 CTS up to around $54k, so a $10k difference would put the V at $64k base. If they pull that off with the added cost of all the things mentioned above, it's a hell of a deal.
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  11. #26
    atdeneve is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    Just to clear a few things up:

    The 2008+ CTS was brought to the market with an extremely low margin for the Dealers in an attempt to guarantee the car's success. I think everyone at GM knew they were sitting on a winner, and they wanted to be sure that the magazines and the public would be stunned at the price point for such a nice car. Over the last 12 months, the MSRP has slowly increased by approximately $2,500, part to give Dealers a little more margin and partly due to rising costs of steel, copper and other materials.

    As far as cost comparisons to the first generation V6 CTS, keep in mind that even though the CTS is a lot nicer than Gen.1, there's not a lot of more expensive items on it- a lot of styling changes that improved the car, but not much to raise the cost. The 2008s don't have paddle shifters, still have cast iron rotors, the same wheel sizes, 235 tires, a Naturally Aspirated 3.6L engine, etc, etc. The V model is going to have a bunch of items that cost quite a bit more than the equipment on the Gen.1 V, such as the two piece rotors, larger and wider wheels, wider tires, larger engine, Supercharger, intercooler, extra pulleys, magnetic ride control, Alcantara steering wheel, etc.... I know it seems like an easy comparison to make, but there's a little more to it.

    Also keep in mind that a Gen.1 V6 CTS could barely get up to $45k, even loaded. A gen.1 V with FG2 and a roof was $55k ($10k difference for those keeping score at home). It's now possible to get a V6 CTS up to around $54k, so a $10k difference would put the V at $64k base. If they pull that off with the added cost of all the things mentioned above, it's a hell of a deal.
    I don't know about 54k. With a build on Cadillac's site, the maximum I reach, without AWD, is 47,865. AWD would tack on another 1900 to bring it to 49,765. Still 4,000 shy of the 54 you've got above. But, since the V won't have AWD, 10,000 above a similar base CTS would yield approximately 58 for an 09 V.

    Sure, if you start tacking on redundant packages, I can get just shy of 60K, but that'd be misleading. In fact, I'm not sure why the site even allows certain packages to be selectable in combination when it would just be the same content being paid for repeatedly. Makes no sense. A fully loaded base CTS comes in at just about 50K. Just under 48K without AWD.

    Me thinks a fully loaded 09 V at 58K would be lovely.

  12. #27
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Regardless, my point is that the difference between the base CTS and the V is no longer just "larger versions" of the same stuff. It didn't cost any extra to manufacture the FG2 shocks on the 07 CTS-V than the FE3 shocks on the 07 CTS, but it sure costs more to manufacture the Magnetic Ride system than the FE3. Similarly, the base 07 CTS had cast iron rotors, while the V simply had larger cast iron rotors- not much price difference. Two piece rotors add more cost to the 09. The 07's had the same rear as the V6, while the cast iron rear diff in the 09 V costs more than the aluminum piece in the base. And so on......

    All I'm saying is that the differences between the CTS and V have grown far more substantial for the second generation. Where the first V just used bigger pieces of the same construction from the V6, the new model uses some more exotic parts. The price differential between the two will reflect that.
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  13. #28
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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    It's a bargain!

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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    Quote Originally Posted by Jpjr View Post
    ?? Having the option to price this car between $60-70k while still being in the same segment gives them huge discretion on margin. Any price in this range still puts them in the same class and would be within the expectations of this forum from what I have read. It all comes down to margin versus volume.
    I think you can already assume the production volume on this car will be low. Plus you can't necessarily assume that GM intends to make any significant profit on this segment. They may just be keeping it alive, so to speak, in anticipation of springing the V coupe on the market sometime in the future.

    The major point of my post is that you can't predict the price of the V2 based on the value added for the V1. They are completely different cars now and a better comparison is the V2 against the new 2008 CTS as is pointed out in this thread.

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    Re: Saleable V2 builds to being 8/4 or 8/11

    All of these are good points.

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