Cadillac Owners Forum banner
4K views 42 replies 14 participants last post by  Katshot 
#1 ·
#9 ·
BMWs web site will let you build your own M3. Base MSRP is $53,800, but that's only if you want cloth seats, no Nav, no backup sensors, no XM, etc, etc..... Add on the options and it hits $70k real quick.

414 hp
295 ft/lbs tq
4.7 seconds 0-60
14/20 city/hwy

Neat car, but.........
 
#6 ·
LOL @ 30k markup. The sad part is that there's people with so much money to burn that they don't care.

FYI, manufacturers CAN NOT prevent the Dealers from marking up cars. They can threaten all they want, but they have no control over what the Dealers sell their cars for. Nissan toyed with several ideas to keep GT-Rs from being scalped- at one point they even floated the notion that any GT-R re-sold within the first 6 months would have its warranty voided (to keep people from buying them and throwing them on eBay for a $30k profit), but it would be illegal.

There are many things the Manufacturers do to try and maintain their image (like not cooperating on any advertising costs if we use words like "Clearance", "Blowout", etc to try and discourage us from running those type of ads), but in the end the market determines the price of a car.
 
#7 ·
My Dad's neighbor bought a 2006 Z06 brand new for $102K.... my Dad waited one year and got a 2007 brand new with more options for $75K.

Some people just do not care!
 
#14 ·
4.3 is impressive with less than 300tq, but I wonder why BMW shows 4.7 if the car is capable of so much more? http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Cont...Features_and_Specs/M3CoupeSpecifications.aspx

Either way, the M3 has always been a performance machine with no focus on comfort or amenities, so it really doesn't fit in this Prestige Luxury Sedan segment. The comparison I'm waiting to see is the M5/E63/CTS-V shootout- that one should be a blast. 3 cars of similar size and features, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.
 
#15 ·
#20 ·
There are quite a few different numbers out there for 0-60 times. Car & Driver has managed 4.1s for 0-60:
http://www.caranddriver.com/buying_guide/bmw/m3/2008_bmw_m3_sedan/2008_bmw_m3_sedan_short_take_road_test

Back to the original post, I disagree that somebody putting a $100k asking price on a new M3 sedan gives the V2 a lot of breathing room. The dealer is trying to make a quick buck on the first ones to arrive. Let him. The smart folks will shop somewhere else. Keep in mind that the previous gen M3 was a great success, so they're now trying to cash in. There is no guarantee the car will be sold for that much. There are still dealers putting a 10k markup on a new Z06 whereas they can be had between 6-8k under MSRP.

Ignoring the 30k markup, even the 70k loaded price is very steep. I'm betting that BMW is going to find out that with the amount of competition in the 400+ hp segment and more importantly with the way the economy is going they will see some disappointing sales numbers. I seem to recall that it was simply impossible to get an M3 below MSRP in the first few years. I think that's going to change. Yes, based on the success of the previous model they'll get a lot of folks that want to upgrade, but once they find out the price difference and the other alternatives not everybody is blindly going to switch.

In my opinion if GM wants to be successful with the V2 and want to attract a lot of new buyers from the other brands they are going to have to stand out by offering more performance, better quality for less money. This is what they're attempting to do right now, so let them stay on track. Don't think that because a loaded M3 can go for $70l, GM can now price the V2 for $70k. They need to stay in the low $60k.

Finally, yes marketing is trying to position it against M5 and that's the most valid comparison, but there will be prospective M3 owners thinking about buying the V2 as well.
 
#21 ·
Previously, I had been concerned that the V2 may be priced too high, mainly due to how it compared to the V1 prices. I had also seen advertised pricing for the M3 in the $50's. This made me fearful that the V2 may be over-improved and be forced to be over-priced.
Now, seeing that for the base price, you barely get the M3 badge.....I'm thinking that a fully optioned M3 at $72k means the V2 should be fine as long as it prices in below that. And I think that "should be" do-able.
As far as the CTS-V being compared more directly with the M5, I still think that is wrong. Like it or not, the CTS is still the "entry-level" Cadillac, same as the 3-series BMW, hence the direct comparison. IMO, the STS should be the direct comparison for the 5-series. It's really not the specs you're comparing, it's where the car stacks up in the model line.
 
#22 ·
<snip>

As far as the CTS-V being compared more directly with the M5, I still think that is wrong. Like it or not, the CTS is still the "entry-level" Cadillac, same as the 3-series BMW, hence the direct comparison. IMO, the STS should be the direct comparison for the 5-series. It's really not the specs you're comparing, it's where the car stacks up in the model line.
So in 2 months when the 1 series comes out, the CTS will compete against that?

Size is size, no matter where it is positioned in the model lineup.

-Chris
 
#24 ·
I'm not sure where some of you guys get the idea that the M3 is in any way "cheap on luxury". And as far as the 1-series goes, my guess is the sub-CTS class Caddy like the BLS will be more of a direct comparison there. Come on now, you can't argue that the CTS and the 3-series are the most direct models in these two brands.
 
#25 ·
I'm not sure where some of you guys get the idea that the M3 is in any way "cheap on luxury".
Cloth freaking seats. The end.

And as far as the 1-series goes, my guess is the sub-CTS class Caddy like the BLS will be more of a direct comparison there. Come on now, you can't argue that the CTS and the 3-series are the most direct models in these two brands.
Size and horsepower are the deciding factors in comparing cars, not "where it falls in the lineup". Using that kind of logic, the Bentley Flying Spur is also a CTS competitor since it's the entry level.
 
#35 ·
You made a good point about the Gen 2 CTS. The difference in size between the first and second gen, tho small, was enough to make its segment a little more clear. I agree, Cadillac certainly isnt being clear about how their sedans fit in the market. As much as I think the DTS doesn't make sense anymore, I still see more DTS then STS. That might also be an indicator of the local average age though.
I think the STS doesnt fit in at all, personally. I would like to see the STS dropped. Then move all of the options it has, to the CTS. In a few months, theres going to be a major gap between the V and the highest CTS, even larger then the previous gen. What is going to fill it? How about a CTS with a 440 hp N*? Cadillac is going to need something to compete with the 420 hp XF. It seems like this new XF is going to be the CTS main rival, as the prices are closer to the CTS then the 5/E.
They need a bigger car that competes tho, thats for sure. DTS needs to be replaced, and they need to introduce a smaller car then the CTS.
 
#37 ·
There's been a decent amount of talk about the BLS but face it, the car hasn't succeeded yet, to make any headway in it's target market. It's possible that it may do better here but, I'm not so sure. Cadillac realizes that they need to pursue a more "global" market if they are to attain the respect in the industry they are looking for but, with the kind of sales numbers they have in Europe, they have a LONG way to go. Their largest market by far, is still right here but their product line is not really organized IMO, and they are still convinced that "American luxury" is NOT their goal, so where does that leave them? Is it maybe time for GM to face facts, and give up pursuing the Global market with Cadillac, and refocus it as an "American Classic Luxury" car?
As for the current product line, I've thought for MANY years, the Deville should go. It's really just a value leader for them these days anyway. Has been for a long time. It's the car that gives them their sales volume. Not a GREAT car but it's a GOOD car, and sells well. Not sure it gets them much though. Could be falling into the same pit that the Fleetwood did. Volume leader but not much else. STS has been Cadillac's "tech" car for a long time. I remember the Seville always got the new technology before anything else in the line, so it is tough to move that mantle to another car. IMO, they simply have too many cars competing against each other. Just not enough separation between the cars. I'd probably dump the DTS, expand the STS into a car that would compete with the 7-series, leave the 5-series to the CTS, and bring out the BLS to work on the 3-series. Three levels, keep them distinct from each other with only minimal overlap via entry level versions priced round about the upper end of the lower model. Then, I'd dump the XLR and replace it with a VERY distinctive "American" coupe called Eldorado.
That's MY Cadillac lineup.
 
#38 ·
That's probably almost exactly what's going to happen.

The BLS won't come here, and that's a good thing (it's just a rebadged Saab anyway). Expect an all new car to replace the CTS as the "entry level" now that the CTS has moved upmarket, the DTS to ride off into the sunset and the STS to get bigger and compete against the 7 series. Whether or not they'll call it the STS still remains to be seen.
 
#39 ·
I TOTALLY forgot the BLS was a FWD. Keeping that in mind, I'd definitely NOT bring it here (or anywhere else) if the goal is to go head to head with BMW's 3-series. Plus, as I recall, most reviewers said it was less spacious than the 3-series so I'll assume the BLS is a little small to compete with the 3-series as well. Oh well, I'm sure there's SOMETHING out there that GM can rebadge/redefine to be a 3-series competitor.
 
#41 ·
Since when does GM have to produce a car to compete with a certain BMW?

Since when did BMW become the standard all other manufacturers have to comply too?

Is it not possible for say GM to come out with car that BMW has to go back to the drawing board and come out with something to compete with GM's product.?.

Maybe I just don't hold BMW to an as high standard as some of you. Great car but certainly not the end all be all.

<shrug>
 
#42 ·
Right with you.. I was using them for size comparision. I still believe there will be a next gen BLS or similar to compete in a smaller class size. BMW is one of several it would be competing against at a world class level... I for one would love for Cadillac to be in the lead and all others follow.Not there yet but that may be proven with the new V who knows only GM. CTS has been upsized slightly so but very close in size to a 5 series, E series, A6, etc. etc. The next Gen STS or what ever they call it wil be a Sclass 7series A8 you know where I'm going here. Cadillac needs to be a world standard again:thumbsup:

Something else to ponder maybe it's in there master plan to be slightly smaller than its competitors in all classes. With a fuel crunch on and needing to go green and all that.. All they have to do is focus on making them lighter ,package them better, continue to use upgraded materials and fit and finish offer AWD RWD and everything else Cadillac does to be a Cadillac. I've wanted one since I was 7 years old. Now I have 2 and lovin every minute of it....:thumbsup:
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top