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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; New BLS=3 series CTS=5 series new STS/DTS 7 series.... Thats it like it or not. Should be complete by 2011 ...
  1. #31
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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    New BLS=3 series CTS=5 series new STS/DTS 7 series.... Thats it like it or not. Should be complete by 2011 as long as the GM dosn't short change the funding.....

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    Quote Originally Posted by v84life View Post
    New BLS=3 series CTS=5 series new STS/DTS 7 series.... Thats it like it or not. Should be complete by 2011 as long as the GM dosn't short change the funding.....
    Dude, the BLS is a "compact", so you can't be serious that it is a direct competitor for the 3-series. Plus, I can't believe you don't understand that the CTS was conceived as GM's competition for the 3-series.

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    Dude, the BLS is a "compact", so you can't be serious that it is a direct competitor for the 3-series. Plus, I can't believe you don't understand that the CTS was conceived as GM's competition for the 3-series.
    BLS is certainly not a compact, but its also not the size of the 3-series.

    The CTS is a 5 series competitor. I've heard Lutz say it twice. www.cadillac.com described the CTS gen 2 when it first came out as "5 series competitor at 3 series pricing."

    The fact that the market has made it a 3-series/5-series competitor is fine, but Gm reps in the past have said numerous times the new CTS is a 5 series competitor.

    The STS also competes against the 5 series. Cadillac is still organizing its model lineup...imo itll take another couple years before we know exactly which models in Cadillacs lineup compete with the lineup in other brands.

    IMO...

    --- => 1 series
    CTS => 3-series/5-series
    STS => 5-series
    DTS => ---
    --- => 7-series

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    Quote Originally Posted by concorso View Post
    IMO...

    --- => 1 series
    CTS => 3-series/5-series
    STS => 5-series
    DTS => ---
    --- => 7-series
    At least I can basically agree with this. Personally, I think the CTS is more readily aligned with the 3-series than the 5-series but it's at least "possible" that one could make a case for the Gen 2 CTS to compete in some way with the 5-series. This again is why I've said for years, that Cadillac has been able (or unwilling) to separate their cars into reasonable segments. As the Deville and Seville had both shared the same K-body designation for years, they slowly brought the two together dimensionally so it was hard to see a reasonable difference between the two other than styling. Then the CTS muddied the water further yet. Now, you have three cars that are very close dimensionally but only one remains FWD. So moving forward, how do you separate the three cars? Okay, say the Deville (sorry, DTS) is to be the old-fart car (strange having the FWD car marketed toward the older crowd), so it's on it's own but you still have to be able to differentiate the CTS from the STS, and personally, I don't see how you do that since they are so similar. I really struggle with trying to figure out how Cadillac thinks.

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    You made a good point about the Gen 2 CTS. The difference in size between the first and second gen, tho small, was enough to make its segment a little more clear. I agree, Cadillac certainly isnt being clear about how their sedans fit in the market. As much as I think the DTS doesn't make sense anymore, I still see more DTS then STS. That might also be an indicator of the local average age though.
    I think the STS doesnt fit in at all, personally. I would like to see the STS dropped. Then move all of the options it has, to the CTS. In a few months, theres going to be a major gap between the V and the highest CTS, even larger then the previous gen. What is going to fill it? How about a CTS with a 440 hp N*? Cadillac is going to need something to compete with the 420 hp XF. It seems like this new XF is going to be the CTS main rival, as the prices are closer to the CTS then the 5/E.
    They need a bigger car that competes tho, thats for sure. DTS needs to be replaced, and they need to introduce a smaller car then the CTS.

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    Dude, the BLS is a "compact", so you can't be serious that it is a direct competitor for the 3-series. Plus, I can't believe you don't understand that the CTS was conceived as GM's competition for the 3-series.
    Gen 1 CTS I can agree with you....

    I said new not current BLS ,STS/DTS. The BLS we will get will be sized close to the 3 series just as the current CTS is close to the 5 series. Cadillac must build a flag ship and that will be the next gen STS/DTS and yes it will be sized close to the 7 series. Thats the plan and I hope they stick to it.

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    There's been a decent amount of talk about the BLS but face it, the car hasn't succeeded yet, to make any headway in it's target market. It's possible that it may do better here but, I'm not so sure. Cadillac realizes that they need to pursue a more "global" market if they are to attain the respect in the industry they are looking for but, with the kind of sales numbers they have in Europe, they have a LONG way to go. Their largest market by far, is still right here but their product line is not really organized IMO, and they are still convinced that "American luxury" is NOT their goal, so where does that leave them? Is it maybe time for GM to face facts, and give up pursuing the Global market with Cadillac, and refocus it as an "American Classic Luxury" car?
    As for the current product line, I've thought for MANY years, the Deville should go. It's really just a value leader for them these days anyway. Has been for a long time. It's the car that gives them their sales volume. Not a GREAT car but it's a GOOD car, and sells well. Not sure it gets them much though. Could be falling into the same pit that the Fleetwood did. Volume leader but not much else. STS has been Cadillac's "tech" car for a long time. I remember the Seville always got the new technology before anything else in the line, so it is tough to move that mantle to another car. IMO, they simply have too many cars competing against each other. Just not enough separation between the cars. I'd probably dump the DTS, expand the STS into a car that would compete with the 7-series, leave the 5-series to the CTS, and bring out the BLS to work on the 3-series. Three levels, keep them distinct from each other with only minimal overlap via entry level versions priced round about the upper end of the lower model. Then, I'd dump the XLR and replace it with a VERY distinctive "American" coupe called Eldorado.
    That's MY Cadillac lineup.

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    That's probably almost exactly what's going to happen.

    The BLS won't come here, and that's a good thing (it's just a rebadged Saab anyway). Expect an all new car to replace the CTS as the "entry level" now that the CTS has moved upmarket, the DTS to ride off into the sunset and the STS to get bigger and compete against the 7 series. Whether or not they'll call it the STS still remains to be seen.
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    The views and opinions of this poster are solely his own and do not represent those of Plaza Cadillac

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    I TOTALLY forgot the BLS was a FWD. Keeping that in mind, I'd definitely NOT bring it here (or anywhere else) if the goal is to go head to head with BMW's 3-series. Plus, as I recall, most reviewers said it was less spacious than the 3-series so I'll assume the BLS is a little small to compete with the 3-series as well. Oh well, I'm sure there's SOMETHING out there that GM can rebadge/redefine to be a 3-series competitor.

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    Quote Originally Posted by Cadillac Tony View Post
    the DTS to ride off into the sunset and the STS to get bigger and compete against the 7 series. Whether or not they'll call it the STS still remains to be seen.
    They need to "next letter" the series and call the new model the TTS



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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    Since when does GM have to produce a car to compete with a certain BMW?

    Since when did BMW become the standard all other manufacturers have to comply too?

    Is it not possible for say GM to come out with car that BMW has to go back to the drawing board and come out with something to compete with GM's product.?.

    Maybe I just don't hold BMW to an as high standard as some of you. Great car but certainly not the end all be all.

    <shrug>

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    Quote Originally Posted by HITMONEY View Post
    Since when does GM have to produce a car to compete with a certain BMW?

    Since when did BMW become the standard all other manufacturers have to comply too?

    Is it not possible for say GM to come out with car that BMW has to go back to the drawing board and come out with something to compete with GM's product.?.

    Maybe I just don't hold BMW to an as high standard as some of you. Great car but certainly not the end all be all.

    <shrug>
    Right with you.. I was using them for size comparision. I still believe there will be a next gen BLS or similar to compete in a smaller class size. BMW is one of several it would be competing against at a world class level... I for one would love for Cadillac to be in the lead and all others follow.Not there yet but that may be proven with the new V who knows only GM. CTS has been upsized slightly so but very close in size to a 5 series, E series, A6, etc. etc. The next Gen STS or what ever they call it wil be a Sclass 7series A8 you know where I'm going here. Cadillac needs to be a world standard again

    Something else to ponder maybe it's in there master plan to be slightly smaller than its competitors in all classes. With a fuel crunch on and needing to go green and all that.. All they have to do is focus on making them lighter ,package them better, continue to use upgraded materials and fit and finish offer AWD RWD and everything else Cadillac does to be a Cadillac. I've wanted one since I was 7 years old. Now I have 2 and lovin every minute of it....

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    Re: M3 Pricing gives V2 breathing room

    Quote Originally Posted by HITMONEY View Post
    Since when does GM have to produce a car to compete with a certain BMW?

    Since when did BMW become the standard all other manufacturers have to comply too?

    Is it not possible for say GM to come out with car that BMW has to go back to the drawing board and come out with something to compete with GM's product.?.

    Maybe I just don't hold BMW to an as high standard as some of you. Great car but certainly not the end all be all.

    <shrug>
    Quite right. Was just using BMW as a bench mark, not necessarily THE bench mark. But you could really look at most any of the big three European luxury marques. BMW, M-B, or Audi. All seem to have settled on a basic three car lineup. Personally, I kind of like the Audi way with both "A" and "S" versions of the three basic level cars, it keeps it simple for the customer. BMW and M-B have always confused me with their multiple versions of each level car.
    That's why I kind of like the Caddy lineup. They have the three level line, with a luxo and sport version of each. Just don't think the cars themselves are as well though out and positioned. The CTS "WAS" a good level 1 car but now seems to be aspiring to be a level 2 car. The STS would seem to be a good level two car but since the DTS is really not a level 3 car, it feels the need to float the middle-ground. The DTS is a level 3 car in size only and is therefore a problem. Switch it to RWD and give it a nice chassis like the STS and CTS have, and you then have a solid level 3 car. But then you need to figure out what to do with the rest of the line since now the CTS and STS seem to be crowding each other and therefore leaving a big hole in the lineup at the entry level. Again, Cadillac just doesn't seem to be able to organize the lineup and then keep it that way. Constant state of chaos.

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