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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, Torque converter on a DSG transmission? in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by Katshot I'm not so sure GM is "all that" in the automatic trans market these days. I've ...
  1. #16
    JBsZ06 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    I'm not so sure GM is "all that" in the automatic trans market these days. I've always favored ZF over anything GM does, and I "think" GM has at least used some or are using some ZF transmissions now.
    I hope your right and GM has the forethought to move to DSG much the same way mercedes has just made the move.

    The MB SL63 was surprise and I'm not 100% sure but in reading the April issue of Winding Road last night I noticed that the MB SLK350 also has a 7 speed automatic with wet clutches but no torque convertor.

    I've been impressed with the direct drive feel of the DSG type automatic transmission and the efficiency it offers.

    I would hope GM has properly designed the present 6 speed transmissions for the transition to this cutting edge technology.

    If not the torque convertor automatic probably can be programed to run in a similiar fashion to Lexus's newest hot sedan, the ISF sedan.

    Preferable for GM would still be a dsg and possibly GM will make the leap sooner rather than later.

    GM has had world class automatics with torque convertors for years. Will its position begin to slip if they don't evolve to dSG? Eventually I believe that well earned reputation will begin to erode.

    Money is tight and quite frankly GM's powerful and torquey motors tend to make the DSG, a position for driving feel rather than outright performance.

    When? I don't know considering the previous investments in transmissions prior to DSG evolution.

    Maybe GM will just buy the technology and transmission units from Borg Warner. (should the torque rating of the transmissions be sufficient.)

    Just shooting the breeze .

    JB

  2. #17
    JimmyH is offline Cadillac Owners 10000+ Posts
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    DSG; the manual transmission for old-timers and cripples.

  3. #18
    JBsZ06 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyH View Post
    DSG; the manual transmission for old-timers and cripples.
    Jimmy its not for old timers.. or cripples but rather for those that want consistant winning races..

    The god dam computer is just too fast and consistant for human beings to keep up with time and time again..

    Old timers want manuals..

    The racers want DSG because it wins races.

    and this is coming from a guy whose driving a C6 Z51 Manual.

    I just know ....DSG is more consistant and faster.

    I guess we could say it ssucks that technology has put us on the trailer.

  4. #19
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    I've had this same discussion many times over the last few years. But I really feel that the problem is more with how marketing has pulled the customer into their way of thinking. I personally don't care that a computer can shift my trans faster than I can. I don't race professionally. If I did, I'd probably use an automatic because they ARE better for ET's. But since I buy my cars for driving enjoyment, I tend to favor a manual trans in my "fun cars". I like an auto in my daily-driver for convenience but, in vehicles like a Jeep and sports cars like my Mustang, I can't imagine having any but a manual. Don't need, or want all the computer controlled this and that to compensate for this and that on my "fun cars", and I won't be sucked into the marketing theory that says I do. Hell, eventually if this keeps up, people will forget how to friggin' drive a sports car.

  5. #20
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    I don't see what marketing has to do with this. Some people simply want whatever makes them go faster. They either mod the car (headers, CAI) to get the extra few horses, or they use other technology that can make the car go faster with the same amount of horses. DSG is one of those. This is about technological advancement. Yes, some people will always enjoy the way sports cars from the past needed to be driven, no abs, no traction control, no automated clutch systems. Modern sports cars on the other hand do use all this technology. You say that people will forget how to drive a sports car, but modern sports cars just are driven differently than the old ones.

    Some people still enjoy using the rotary dial to make phone calls..... (a joke, don't take it personally).

  6. #21
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    There is nothing new about automatic transmissions in sports cars. Jim Hall totally obliterated the opposition with his Chaparral cars that had a two speed Chevy Powerglide transmission. These cars were generally regarded as being the most successful sports racing cars in history. Hall was forced from the scene after nearly every innovation he created was outlawed by rule changes when the other manufacturers were unable to compete. An effort by Ford to develop a competing car resulted in the death of racing legend Ken Miles when the automatic transmission seized in the Ford "J" car he was driving at 230MPH.
    Don't mess with Binky Bear!


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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    My point was that we, as a society are continually led down a road where we feel we "need" bigger, better, newer, more high-tech stuff in virtually everything we buy. Like it or not, marketing is what is making that happen. How many times have you gone to a fast food place, or a movie theater and ended up buying a larger whatever because it was a "better deal"? More for your money, right? Americans love a deal! Gotta have it bigger right? Super-size me has become a way of life. Same goes for all sorts of consumer items. Features added to all kinds of things for no other reason than to give manufacturers an excuse to keep raising the prices of things. Then how about how everything has to be "convenient"? Gotta have a remote for everything. Gotta be able to do as much as possible without having to actually DO anything. It's why we're so fat and lazy these days.
    IMO, to say I "need" a cell phone that does dozens of things beyond simply being able to make a call (which assures we keep buying ever more phones), or that I "need" a 12 megapixal digital camera (when anyone who knows anything about cameras knows that a decent 2-3 megapixal would easily suffice for 99% of the buying public), is no different than someone telling me how I "need" a car that not only has so much power that it's virtually unusable without numerous computer-controlled safety systems, but also has nearly gotten to the point where driving it is barely a step up from playing a video game. Not picking on the V2 specifically, it's just that thanks to electronic driver interfaces, we're barely "driving" a car anymore.
    And as far as my comment about how people will forget how to actually drive a real car, I'll bet there's a lot of people out there right now who would have a real hard time driving a powerful car WITHOUT all the modern "crutches". Hell, I've seen guys unable to even START an old car, let alone DRIVE it. Sorry, IMO, we are dumbing-down our drivers, and I don't think it's a good thing.

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    luxilon is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    I agree with you on the more than needed megapixel and super-size examples. However, I don't think no longer knowing how to use an abacus is a bad thing, nor do I think I'm a dumbed-down driver when I don't know how to double clutch. It's an unnecessary skill with today's cars.

    Yes, if you do know how to double clutch you probably have a better understanding of rev-matching etc., but there are simply too many things to keep up with in today's society to keep track of the inner workings of the tools we use. As long as the tools work we don't need to know, nor do we have the time to know it all.

    Keep in mind that with a DSG and the right amount of software you might be able to have a similar impact on how a car shifts as with a manual transmission. Instead of controlling how the car shifts by using two pedals and a stick you can have a similar impact by using a single pedal and a two steering wheel mounted paddles.

    I don't know how much of this is already present today, but advanced DSG's take the throttle position, revs, speed, lean angle of the car, traction of the wheels and steering position into account as to how the car will shift when you operate the steering wheel mounted paddle. So your previous inputs to the car, plus the current ones (throttle position and paddle operation) result in an action. You will have the ability to fine tune these just like you have the ability to fine tune the clutch, throttle and stick operation in today's manual cars.

  9. #24
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    Had the opportunity to drive a friend's 1926 Pierce Arrow back in college with a spark advance lever on the steering wheel. Are you suggesting we go back to that?

    If not, then I would contend that it's all subjective ... it's a continuum that has no absolutes, no rights, no wrongs. It's evolving. Live in the past of your choosing if you will, but don't suggest that there's a just-right level of computer/electronic control of a vehicle's many functions because there isn't ... it doesn't exist.
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  10. #25
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    Don't forget the lowly Audi A3 w/ DSG

    I have an 08 2.0T. I replaced a VW TDI with it and did I ever get more than I expected. I have been driving MT's since I learned to drive in the 50's and never thought I would give one up. This DSG is simply amazing when it comes with paddles. Don't let the little engine turn you away either. I'm still trying to "unlearn" letting off the gas when I shift. I like the 08 CTS but I let the wife drive it. Don't knock it until you try it.

  11. #26
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    Sounds like my grandfather's 1915 Model T Brass!

    Norm

    Quote Originally Posted by rand49er View Post
    Had the opportunity to drive a friend's 1926 Pierce Arrow back in college with a spark advance lever on the steering wheel. Are you suggesting we go back to that?

    If not, then I would contend that it's all subjective ... it's a continuum that has no absolutes, no rights, no wrongs. It's evolving. Live in the past of your choosing if you will, but don't suggest that there's a just-right level of computer/electronic control of a vehicle's many functions because there isn't ... it doesn't exist.

  12. #27
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    While I understand that you certainly COULD make a case for the "technology replacing the need for basic knowledge", I think that in many ways, we HAVE become a very dumbed-down society. And this is NOT a good thing. I recall Popular Mechanics doing a story a short while ago that was titled something like "25 things every man should how how to do" and it was pretty accurate IMO. I see so many people these days that can do all kinds of things that are seemingly so necessary in today's society but, lack the ability to do even some of the most elementary things that our fathers and grand fathers easily managed. Things that are more basic to our survival and things that relate to our physical and/or natural world around us. Also, it's been documented that our society as a whole has lost a great deal of "mechanical" ability. Few seem to even care how to fix things these days. Why bother? Just replace things instead. I see this kind of thing translating into things like driving cars too. Simple tasks that require some coordination of multiple senses and limbs, are being replaced by simple eye-hand coordination. If you can play a video game, chances are you can drive a car these days. I just see that as a negative.

  13. #28
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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    Wow, bit negative there Katshot. Kind of sense a "sky is falling" attitude.

    In some ways you are correct and it is possible that society is dropping in a whole. The fact is you will always need mechanically apt people to perform repairs to this hi tech equipment and that is where I fall in.

    For fun I do all of the mods to my car and everything you see in my sig was installed by me. I love the mix between mechanical, electrical, and software. If done properly it cannot beat and it will only get better. This is a great time to be alive stop and enjoy it.

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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    My point was that we, as a society are continually led down a road where we feel we "need" bigger, better, newer, more high-tech stuff in virtually everything we buy. Like it or not, marketing is what is making that happen. How many times have you gone to a fast food place, or a movie theater and ended up buying a larger whatever because it was a "better deal"? More for your money, right? Americans love a deal! Gotta have it bigger right? Super-size me has become a way of life. Same goes for all sorts of consumer items. Features added to all kinds of things for no other reason than to give manufacturers an excuse to keep raising the prices of things. Then how about how everything has to be "convenient"? Gotta have a remote for everything. Gotta be able to do as much as possible without having to actually DO anything. It's why we're so fat and lazy these days.
    IMO, to say I "need" a cell phone that does dozens of things beyond simply being able to make a call (which assures we keep buying ever more phones), or that I "need" a 12 megapixal digital camera (when anyone who knows anything about cameras knows that a decent 2-3 megapixal would easily suffice for 99% of the buying public), is no different than someone telling me how I "need" a car that not only has so much power that it's virtually unusable without numerous computer-controlled safety systems, but also has nearly gotten to the point where driving it is barely a step up from playing a video game. Not picking on the V2 specifically, it's just that thanks to electronic driver interfaces, we're barely "driving" a car anymore.
    And as far as my comment about how people will forget how to actually drive a real car, I'll bet there's a lot of people out there right now who would have a real hard time driving a powerful car WITHOUT all the modern "crutches". Hell, I've seen guys unable to even START an old car, let alone DRIVE it. Sorry, IMO, we are dumbing-down our drivers, and I don't think it's a good thing.
    I have a 430 hp/ 450 lbft tq 1971 and I say give me all the electronics. I can make the old gal sing, but it is so much more effective to have stability control, launch control, fuel injection, abs and all the other amenities. These upgrades are what take cars from good to great. They also open them up to a wider audience, and allow more great cars to be created since the higher volume of drivers who can handle them is there.

    I refuse to join the automotive amish.

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    Re: Torque converter on a DSG transmission?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiTechRV View Post
    I have a 430 hp/ 450 lbft tq 1971 and I say give me all the electronics. I can make the old gal sing, but it is so much more effective to have stability control, launch control, fuel injection, abs and all the other amenities. These upgrades are what take cars from good to great. They also open them up to a wider audience, and allow more great cars to be created since the higher volume of drivers who can handle them is there.

    I refuse to join the automotive amish.
    Yup.

    Changing points and condensor, setting the dwell, and checking the timing every 10k miles was a pain. And, what about bias-ply tires?! Drum brakes?! Carburetors?!

    C'mon, yeah there's a lot of people who don't understand mechanical aspects of cars these days, but that's always been the case. All the nostalgic musing about a mythical time when there was some optimal sports car technology is a pipe dream. Cars are getting better and better ... maybe not every single new one is better, but overall they are improving.
    '05 CTS-V, Maggie, Kooks, Hotchkis, Ground Control, Corsa, B&M, DSS/Hendrix, Full 3M Clear Bra, Autovation, V Headrests, CTS Console, STS-V 55w Fogs, Black Vette FRCs, Specter Werkes, Katech LS9 Clutch, SS Brake Lines, Heavymetals U-Turn Fuel Line Eliminator, Momo Combat Evo Shift Knob, Wldwhl Clear Sidemarkers, Linea Corse LC855 Wheels or OEM wheels w/'06-'07 Center Caps, plus a couple more. 472 RWHP/411 RWTQ (Mustang Dyno).

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