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2009-2014 Cadillac CTS-V General Discussion Discussion, As Fast As An 07 Corvette in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2009-2014; Originally Posted by The Tony Show John Heinricy already put the "no car is allowed to be faster than a ...
  1. #46
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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tony Show View Post
    John Heinricy already put the "no car is allowed to be faster than a 'Vette" rumor to bed, so why does everyone keep bringing it up? It's not true. The CTS-V could have 700 hp and it wouldn't outgun the ZR-1 simply due to weight.

    The reason they didn't use the ZR-1 engine in the V is because of the expense involved in building that engine- the exotic materials and hand built nature of that engine would easily take the cost of the CTS-V into the stratosphere, maybe even higher than the AMGs. Since they're spending tons of money on luxuries that the ZR-1 doesn't have they need to cut costs elsewhere, and in this case it was possible to get almost as much power out of the engine and still save a ton of money by making the changes they did.



    I agree that this would be great, but I think it's a lot less expensive to add power than it is to reduce weight. Easy weight reductions (like pulling the spare, navigation, heated seats, etc) would be easy, but you can't compromise luxury. The only place left to go is using exotic materials like CF or magnesium, and I think that would be far more expensive than just bumping up the boost and retuning the engine.
    I think that I'll believe that my feelings about "nothing being able to outpower/outperform the Corvette" are incorrect when they are proven so by GM actually producing an example, not just simply because some corporate suit says so.
    And as for weight shedding being labeled as too expensive as compared to increasing HP, I think the issue is a little more complicated than that but still you may be right. But I think that's about to change, and I think it would be wise for GM to be ahead of the curve for once, rather than playing catch-up.

  2. #47
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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Cadillac View Post
    I agree with Gothicaleigh.. Let's see what the next XLR-V is like before we take what John said to heart. Otherwise, Cadillac isn't even sure if there's going to BE a next XLR right now. Though it would be kinda silly to stop building it as it makes the Corvette platform make that much more sense.

    Anything like the Cien would be pretty amazing!
    I wouldn't be surprised to see the car pulled from the lineup, especially the "V" version. Sales have been in the toilet from the start and to be honest, I doubt the car has even made up for it's own initial start-up costs.
    Face it, it's all about sales. The car doesn't sell, the car gets axed. It's just that simple in the end.
    I told them years ago, and I'll say it here again, if you really want to sell an XLR type car, dump the damn name and call it ELDORADO. Then, load it with an exclusive option package. It MUST have options that are not available on any other car. Exclusivity MUST be uncompromised. A tarted-up, de-tuned version of a Chevy is NOT what I call worthy of a near $100,000 price tag.

  3. #48
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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Halo cars are a show case of what is possible, not a cash cow.

    Norm

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised to see the car pulled from the lineup, especially the "V" version. Sales have been in the toilet from the start and to be honest, I doubt the car has even made up for it's own initial start-up costs.
    Face it, it's all about sales. The car doesn't sell, the car gets axed. It's just that simple in the end.
    I told them years ago, and I'll say it here again, if you really want to sell an XLR type car, dump the damn name and call it ELDORADO. Then, load it with an exclusive option package. It MUST have options that are not available on any other car. Exclusivity MUST be uncompromised. A tarted-up, de-tuned version of a Chevy is NOT what I call worthy of a near $100,000 price tag.

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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV View Post
    Halo cars are a show case of what is possible, not a cash cow.

    Norm
    Question 1:
    So what's so special on the XLR that you would consider it a "...show case of what is possible..."?
    Question 2:
    Do you realize the difference between not being a "cash cow" and being a "loss-leader"?
    Cadillac - and GM for that matter - can't afford to keep high-cost, low-profit cars for very long. Besides, I truly think the XLR has failed miserably as a "halo car" (if that's what it's actually supposed to be). I think Cadillac knew it would be a small market but I'm relatively sure sales have been even lower than they expected (damn, I wish my subscription to Automotive News hadn't run out).

  5. #50
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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    So what's so special on the XLR that you would consider it a "...show case of what is possible..."?
    Evoq design. Good enough for me.
    It's also Cadillac's first modern effort at a roadster (ignoring the Allante which was abandoned over a decade earlier). It will improve and sales will increase as Cadillac's name regains cache as a luxury brand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    A tarted-up, de-tuned version of a Chevy


    MSRP for a base Chevy Caprice was about $17k.
    MSRP for a base Fleetwood was about $33k.

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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Ford released a cheapo Jaguar in the X-Type, and even though they sold a bunch it ruined Jaguar's image by diluting the exclusivity and perceived quality.

    The XLR might not be a runaway sales success, but it made people take note of Cadillac when they might never have before. It's a head turner, and it gets people to go to the web site or stop in a Dealer before getting that next MB or BMW.
    Rest in Peace, J.D. (aka Dirt_Cheap_Fleetwood)

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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Halo cars are not supposed to be gearhead utopia. The XLR does have very good road appeal and Goth has cacked that up.

    Figure the first C5 Corvette cost around $19K to build and sold it for double. Not sure what the C6 costs but you can see every XLR making a profit especially since they are made on the same line.

    Norm

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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by gothicaleigh View Post
    Evoq design. Good enough for me.
    It's also Cadillac's first modern effort at a roadster (ignoring the Allante which was abandoned over a decade earlier). It will improve and sales will increase as Cadillac's name regains cache as a luxury brand.






    MSRP for a base Chevy Caprice was about $17k.
    MSRP for a base Fleetwood was about $33k.
    Nice try but the problem with the Evoq to XLR transition was multi-faceted. First, the Evoq promised what Cadillac could not deliver. Ultimately, after one of the longest gestation periods in modern time, the XLR hit the only way it could, by borrowing heavily from the only decent car in GM inventory that was close to it. In the end, most customers gave up waiting and bought something else. Those who didn't weren't as impressed by the XLR as they had hoped to be. Yes, ultimately SOME did actually buy the car but most bought after being swayed by DEEP discounts etc. between that, and the ever present inventory backlog, I think it's a pretty safe to say that NOBODY is claiming any degree of success for the car.
    And as for the thinly disguised shot at MY car, the Fleetwood was anything but a "halo-car" matter of fact it was the most low-tech car in the Cadillac lineup for years, and one of it's lowest priced as well. And drawing a parallel between it and a Chevy Caprice only draws the even larger picture of platform sharing. Virtually EVERY RWD car in GM's history shared the same basic layout as those in the same or recent model year. So I gotta say, WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tony Show View Post
    Ford released a cheapo Jaguar in the X-Type, and even though they sold a bunch it ruined Jaguar's image by diluting the exclusivity and perceived quality.

    The XLR might not be a runaway sales success, but it made people take note of Cadillac when they might never have before. It's a head turner, and it gets people to go to the web site or stop in a Dealer before getting that next MB or BMW.
    Sorry but you can't place the burden of a tarnished image solely on the X-Type. The S-Type and terrible build quality were what killed that brand cache IMO.

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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by NormV View Post
    Halo cars are not supposed to be gearhead utopia. The XLR does have very good road appeal and Goth has cacked that up.

    Figure the first C5 Corvette cost around $19K to build and sold it for double. Not sure what the C6 costs but you can see every XLR making a profit especially since they are made on the same line.

    Norm
    That's nice, but you didn't answer my question. You proposed what a "halo-car" is. Now tell me how that relates to the XLR?
    And as for Goth, he/she hasn't got a handle on anything in this thread that I can see.

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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Jaguar sucks because Ford ruined it by mainstreaming it's cars, delaying improvements to the XJ's and pissing away their cache with poorly thought out X-Types and S-Types. The new XF is the biggest joke yet. The XKR is the only redeeming model in their lineup. Aston Martin looks for Cadillac prices.

    Cadillac is definitely on the upswing again. The new Escalade, CTS and derivatives all look great. I need to see more of their direction for the SRX, DTS and STS before I proclaim them in any kind of renaissance. As for thier show cars:

    Evoq 1999 - Great styling exercise to prepare the public for the new direction of Cadillac. Ultimately became the XLR. XLR is a great car, but probably answered a question no one was asking. New technologies for Cadillac:
    • Night vision
    • Supercharged Northstar
    • Parking aid
    • Rear view cameras
    • Voice activated NAV
    • Communiport/Microsoft - Multimedia information system and email
    • 4 channel stability control
    • 4T60 LE electronically controlled transmission
    • Michelin runflats anchored to the rim
    Imaj 2000 - Ugly as sin, but the front end ultimately became the CTS. More of the same techno bits, On Star first appears and brembo brakes. Hmmmm.

    Vizon 2001 - Here comes the SRX. Nothing much to report here, but it did have adaptive cruise control, the expanded vista sunroof (or whatever they call that huge sunroof), turn by turn NAV and key proximity sensing theft deterent system.

    Cien 2002 - Beautiful car, lambo doors, V12 with 750HP........you just had to know this would never be built. Every techno-widgit known to man plus displacement on demand, direction injection, paddle shift and a combination starter/generator.

    Sixteen 2003 - You can't help but think of the old custom built coaches from the 30's and 40's when you see this car. Like a Delahay, this car is low, long and somehow you can't take your eyes off it. 1,000 hp V16 and who cares what other crap they decided to tack on. It's got 1,000 HP for crying out loud!

    Provoq 2008 - You're probably looking at the new SRX. The platform was primarily used to show off the hydrogen/electric fuel cell technology. In addition to the power plant, innovations include; brake by wire, shift by wire, a grille that closes at hwy speeds to reduce drag, low-rolling resistance tires, on board USB ports.

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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Come on Kat!

    http://www.doubletongued.org/index.p...nary/halo_car/

    You guys have to pull a little more from just this forum and the magazine rack!

    Norm

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    That's nice, but you didn't answer my question. You proposed what a "halo-car" is. Now tell me how that relates to the XLR?
    And as for Goth, he/she hasn't got a handle on anything in this thread that I can see.

  13. #58
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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    Nice try but the problem with the Evoq to XLR transition was multi-faceted. First, the Evoq promised what Cadillac could not deliver.
    It was more closely related to the concept than many production cars. In 1999, the Evoq's styling was nothing short of groundbreaking and Cadillac faithfully carried it's Art&Science design philosophy over into the production car very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    Ultimately, after one of the longest gestation periods in modern time,
    ...yet another similarity!

    1988 Cadillac Voyage Concept



    1988 - Voyage
    1993 - Fleetwood

    1999 - Evoq
    2004 - XLR

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    the XLR hit the only way it could, by borrowing heavily from the only decent car in GM inventory that was close to it.
    ...and the Fleetwood hit the only way it could, by borrowing heavily from the only decent car in GM inventory that was close to it. (to paraphrase the point)

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    In the end, most customers gave up waiting and bought something else. Those who didn't weren't as impressed by the XLR as they had hoped to be. Yes, ultimately SOME did actually buy the car but most bought after being swayed by DEEP discounts etc. between that, and the ever present inventory backlog, I think it's a pretty safe to say that NOBODY is claiming any degree of success for the car.
    First 2 years of XLR production:
    2004 - 4,387
    2005 - 4,190

    First 2 years of Allante production:
    1987 - 3,363
    1988 - 2,569

    Out of curiosity, does anyone know how many SL500's or XK8's were produced in 2004?

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    And as for the thinly disguised shot at MY car,
    Thinly disguised?
    I used your avatar!
    I can't get any more direct than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    the Fleetwood was anything but a "halo-car" matter of fact it was the most low-tech car in the Cadillac lineup for years, and one of it's lowest priced as well. And drawing a parallel between it and a Chevy Caprice only draws the even larger picture of platform sharing. Virtually EVERY RWD car in GM's history shared the same basic layout as those in the same or recent model year.
    The CTS, SRX, and STS are all RWD and all Cadillac.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot
    So I gotta say, WHAT'S YOUR POINT?
    You were criticising the XLR for platform sharing with a Corvette yet costing a whole lot more. I was simply pointing out the similarities to your own much ballyhooed Fleetwood (which, after a respectable initial year, was also a sales flop).

  14. #59
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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by gothicaleigh View Post
    It was more closely related to the concept than many production cars. In 1999, the Evoq's styling was nothing short of groundbreaking and Cadillac faithfully carried it's Art&Science design philosophy over into the production car very well.



    ...yet another similarity!

    1988 Cadillac Voyage Concept



    1988 - Voyage
    1993 - Fleetwood

    1999 - Evoq
    2004 - XLR



    ...and the Fleetwood hit the only way it could, by borrowing heavily from the only decent car in GM inventory that was close to it. (to paraphrase the point)



    First 2 years of XLR production:
    2004 - 4,387
    2005 - 4,190

    First 2 years of Allante production:
    1987 - 3,363
    1988 - 2,569

    Out of curiosity, does anyone know how many SL500's or XK8's were produced in 2004?



    Thinly disguised?
    I used your avatar!
    I can't get any more direct than that.



    The CTS, SRX, and STS are all RWD and all Cadillac.



    You were criticising the XLR for platform sharing with a Corvette yet costing a whole lot more. I was simply pointing out the similarities to your own much ballyhooed Fleetwood (which, after a respectable initial year, was also a sales flop).
    Again, you missed the point.
    I never said that platform sharing is bad. I never said that utilizing it on the XLR was in any way unique or abnormal. My point was that IMO the XLR being a "halo-car" doesn't have the luxury of being a re-badge type of car.
    And why you keep harping on the Fleetwood is beyond me. As I said before, it was not anywhere near a "halo-car". Matter of fact, it was the old workhorse of the Cadillac lineup. And the Last Gen. one was already planned to be gone in a couple years by the time it came out. Plans had already been made to convert the B&D body production lines to SUV production. There's no argument that the B&D cars were not only near direct rebadges (more so the B cars than the D) but ancient in overall design.

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    Re: As Fast As An 07 Corvette

    Quote Originally Posted by Katshot View Post
    My point was that IMO the XLR being a "halo-car" doesn't have the luxury of being a re-badge type of car.
    By your definition of "re-badge", the Audi R8 is a re-badged Gallardo. I don't think anyone would suggest that makes it less of a Halo car.

    The XLR shares the 170" hydroformed steel frame rails and floorpan with the Corvette, but the engine, interior, wheels, brakes, convertible top and every single exterior body panel are unique. Platform sharing and re-badging are two very different things.

    A Pontiac Transport is a rebadged Chevy Venture- body panels, powertrain and all. The XLR is not a rebadged Corvette.
    Tony Pagano
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    The views and opinions of this poster are solely his own and do not represent those of Plaza Cadillac

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