Help show Consumer Reports how it's done

[mkaresh]

I appreciate the donation on my behalf. If anyone wants to donate money to this forum, for any reason, I'm all for it.

It's not just a matter of this forum for me, though. I feel I must treat all forums equally. Some of the forums who have been helping me out would, if I was a normal vendor, be charging me much more than this one. And if I pay one, I feel I must pay them all.

People seem to have the idea that I'm conducting this research for "someone else." I don't personally need to know the reliability of the Cadillac CTS, or any other car I'm not likely to own in the near future. I'm also not seeking corporate clients. This research is being conducted for the people who participate in it. In other words, it's being conducted for a few hundred of this forums members, among over 23,000 others.

I am not charging any of these people to participate. And I offer no paid membership in lieu of participation, at least not yet. So I have no revenue from the reliability research.

It already costs me quite a bit of money, out of my own pocket, to conduct this research. The forums that have been helping me out recognize this. Why should I have to personally go even deeper in the hole, to provide free information to everyone who helps provide the data? I have enough trouble from my wife, spending the money I'm already spending.

As I've said before, if the research becomes a profitable venture, then I can see sharing this revenue with partner forums. But we're not there, and I'm not sure how soon we will be.

The name-calling in this thread pushes that date further back rather than bringing it closer. It makes about as much sense as the UAW striking and then expecting GM to have more money to pay workers.

[lawfive]

I have to agree with others here, mkaresh. You're using resources on this forum for your own benefit. Irrespective of whether others might be interested in what you're doing and whether they're paying for the data you provide or not, you are personally motivated to do it and in the process you are deriving value from this forum both in terms of developing your product (i.e. CF members feed you data about quality) and advertising your site to people here (i.e. potential future expected cashflows to you). You've mentioned that you have server bills to pay. Guess who else does?

Not paying for value rendered until you are profitable is an interesting concept. So if I run a startup company, I shouldn't have to pay anybody upstream in my value chain simply because my revenue doesn't yet exceed my costs? Or if I'm the head of an established company and I'm running it poorly or my business model sucks, I shouldn't have to pay suppliers whenever I have a bad quarter?

You're already getting revenue. Profit is a more amorphous concept. As soon as you start making some, you'll find your nut just gets bigger. Bigger and more servers. More ladies to check for errors. Medical plans. Retirement funds. Stock buybacks. Lots of ways to not show profit.

Others of us (at least the classy and/or handsome and/or drunk ones) who derive value from this site pony up some money to Sal. I give money over and above the Supporting Member level simply because I've found information on this site valuable and have gotten to know and like some of the people on the forum.

Continue to be classy, mkaresh, and become a Supporting Member.

[lawfive]

I see that you've just become one. Congrats!

[urbanski]

Originally Posted by lawfive

I see that you've just become one. Congrats!

actually no. See post 90
https://67.10.130.12/cgi-bin/nph-790...08-post90.html

He did not pay, nor has he paid a matching amount as requested by TaVern.
Thank you for your support of this forum and its owner, TaVern.

[The Tony Show]

TaVern rules.

[mkaresh]

I've made my situation clear. I wasn't aware that I'd actually get a "supporting member" thingee from TaVern's donation, and if the mods think this is not appropriate they can remove it. While I appreciate the gift, I did not solicit it.

Let's also consider if any of you were in my position. If people were bullying you to do something, how likely would you be to do it? I can guess how Sal himself would react.

On a different topic, The Tony Show is shown as being on my ignore list. I did not put him there--I wasn't even aware there was such a list--and I can't seem to remove him from it.

Does this mean I'm on his ignore list?

[lawfive]

TaVern rocks!

We need a "Supported Member" badge.

(can i has money too tavern?)

[TaVern]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

I've made my situation clear. I wasn't aware that I'd actually get a "supporting member" thingee from TaVern's donation, and if the mods think this is not appropriate they can remove it. While I appreciate the gift, I did not solicit it.

Please allow my situation to be equally as clear.

My donation on your behalf is not a gift to you. Strictly speaking, it is my dedicated obligation to the forum owner in an attempt to offset a fraction of the theft and betrayal you have caused to CadillacOwners.com and their collective supporting members to your for-profit website.

I have no objection to your "supporting member thingee". It is my own personal 'badge of shame' I have bestowed upon you.

My challenge remains valid. Match my donation.

[Nancy116]

I found the debate between Tony and mkaresh quite amusing. I, too, questioned why mkaresh was using this site for business purposes but not supporting it, and I mean as in a donation. OK, so apparently there is an "arrangement" between mkaresh and the forum owner, but that isn't obvious to the forum users so I think it's a logical question.

Mkaresh feels it's a "shoot the messenger" reaction, but I feel it's a couple other things:

The way the news was delivered (too eagerly, IMO), which I posted in his other thread and got a snippy comment back from Mkaresh. Obviously, delivering negative news about Cadillac on a Cadillac enthusiasts' forum could have been handled more delicately. For example, he could have just said something like, "The results are in; unfortunately, the CTS didn't fare well in this initial survey...for those of you who are interested in seeing the results, click on x....thanks to everyone who participated and if you haven't signed up yet, blah blah...".

When anyone questions or complains about the survey, the responses from mkaresh are somewhat defensive and occasionally testy. If his venture is supposed to be competing with J.D. Power and Consumer Reports, I would have expected professional, unemotional "just the facts" responses. Arguing back and forth with someone on a message forum probably isn't the best idea for convincing people you're in the same league as CR.

Sorry to jump into the debate, but I just had to post my thoughts on the matter.

[DanV]

Originally Posted by Nancy116

I found the debate between Tony and mkaresh quite amusing. I, too, questioned why mkaresh was using this site for business purposes but not supporting it, and I mean as in a donation. OK, so apparently there is an "arrangement" between mkaresh and the forum owner, but that isn't obvious to the forum users so I think it's a logical question.

Mkaresh feels it's a "shoot the messenger" reaction, but I feel it's a couple other things:

The way the news was delivered (too eagerly, IMO), which I posted in his other thread and got a snippy comment back from Mkaresh. Obviously, delivering negative news about Cadillac on a Cadillac enthusiasts' forum could have been handled more delicately. For example, he could have just said something like, "The results are in; unfortunately, the CTS didn't fare well in this initial survey...for those of you who are interested in seeing the results, click on x....thanks to everyone who participated and if you haven't signed up yet, blah blah...".

When anyone questions or complains about the survey, the responses from mkaresh are somewhat defensive and occasionally testy. If his venture is supposed to be competing with J.D. Power and Consumer Reports, I would have expected professional, unemotional "just the facts" responses. Arguing back and forth with someone on a message forum probably isn't the best idea for convincing people you're in the same league as CR.

Sorry to jump into the debate, but I just had to post my thoughts on the matter.

I've been watching this on the sidelines also, and I have to comment that Nancy duplicates my feelings 100%...well said.

[urbanski]

Originally Posted by mkaresh

I can guess how Sal himself would react.

he and i were aware of TaVerns action, were very pleased with him, and set your badge up. Sal is completely aware.

[mkaresh]

Originally Posted by Nancy116

When anyone questions or complains about the survey, the responses from mkaresh are somewhat defensive and occasionally testy. If his venture is supposed to be competing with J.D. Power and Consumer Reports, I would have expected professional, unemotional "just the facts" responses. Arguing back and forth with someone on a message forum probably isn't the best idea for convincing people you're in the same league as CR.

CR and J.D. Power would simply ignore you. Which I suppose is what you'd prefer.

Read the wording in the posts that "question" and "complain." In most cases they are heavily loaded and even just plain mean, with no intention of honest debate. If I have been testy, it is because I have been unable to keep my responses from having one-tenth (at most) of the emotion that has been directed at me.

The fact of the matter is, none of this debate occurred in the years--years--before these results were posted. And yet a number of people here would have me believe that the results have nothing to do with it. It's not the results themselves, but that I'm not a supporting member, or that I didn't deliver the results with the right words (because the rest of you choose your words so carefully), and so on.

If it wasn't one thing, it would be another.

[RightTurn]

You must realize that those of us urging you to support this site are only doing so because you are using this site for your gain. As pointed out before, you are not the only person with servers to support. Other forum members promoting their businesses here have paid for the privilege. It makes some of them a little testy to see you getting a free ride, and I don't blame them.

[dqw1]

Tavern gets a standing ovation.

[mkaresh]

If all of the time and effort I've poured into this research can simply be reduced to my personal gain, and nothing else, then I must have no sense. Because there's been a lot of time and effort--not the least of it this thread. And no monetary gain. Only expenses.

To repeat: I haven't asked for a single dollar from anyone here, nor have I received any payment from anyone here.

Beyond this, as I agreed to do, I have placed links to this site prominently on my own--it's even on the survey form for every Cadillac--and have mentioned this site in press releases. Publicity is not monetary compensation, but it is compensation. If the publicity I get here should not be considered to be without cost, then why should the publicity I provide CF be considered to be without cost?

Continuing, how many of these site sponsors have a site that has thousands of visitors each day, and how many of them have placed prominent links to this forum on their sites? I checked a number of them, and found only one with any link to this forum, D3.

I'm not saying all of these vendors should place a prominent link to CF on their sites. If Sal did not request one, and they did not tell him they'd place one, then there's no obligation. They have their arrangement with Sal, suited to the nature of what they're doing, and I have mine, suited to the nature of what I'm doing.