Have We Solved The Steering Vibration On The Freeway?

[CadiJ]

Caddue,

Thank you for the response, I know I am not crazy and further, expecting the owners of CTS's with this issue to "put up with it" is absolutely unacceptable - this is a Cadillac for crying out loud?!

I wonder if we have any GM/Cadillac employees that monitor this forum?

Caddue, do you have the PIP 4444A that you can post?

Also you can pursue lemon law regardless if your purchase or lease.

After doing a LOT of research, I am now leaning towards the STS N* It is not a CTS but from what I am hearing it is more consistent with regard to quality. I am trying SO hard to buy domestic given the state of the country... However, the CTS experience {for me} is really making me question the quality and ability for GM to stand behind their products.

Originally Posted by Caddue

CadiJ,

I have posted on this thread and others numerous times discussing my experience with the drone/vibration issue which you list as #2 . I believe that BOTH are related and if you have one, then you also have the other.

I have been living with this problem since my car had 700 miles. Nothing that was done correct the condition. Replacement & re-indexing the driveshaft just made it intermittent now. It is UNBELIEVABLE to think that after having my car for almost 1 1/2 years, Cadillac is unable to fix the problem. What is even more UNBELIEVABLE, is that they continue to produce a car that they brag about so much with such an unacceptable flaw. Obviously being aware of the vibration problems with the CTS, they apparently don't care. The bulletin you mention was first published in July 08 and was updated in 9/08. It is now 1/09 and they still haven't been able to come up with a acceptable fix. GIVE ME A &^%$^*&(& BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

For those of you that have this problem, tell your dealer and Cadillac to also check bulletin PIP4444A which is part of problems 2 & 3.

If I weren't leasing my CTS, I would have gotten it bought back and moved on but am stuck at this point. I can only hope that if they continue to buy back cars and the media gets involved, they will get off their asses and fix the problem.

[Caddue]

Originally Posted by CadiJ

Caddue,

Thank you for the response, I know I am not crazy and further, expecting the owners of CTS's with this issue to "put up with it" is absolutely unacceptable - this is a Cadillac for crying out loud?!

I wonder if we have any GM/Cadillac employees that monitor this forum?

Caddue, do you have the PIP 4444A that you can post?

Also you can pursue lemon law regardless if your purchase or lease.

After doing a LOT of research, I am now leaning towards the STS N* It is not a CTS but from what I am hearing it is more consistent with regard to quality. I am trying SO hard to buy domestic given the state of the country... However, the CTS experience {for me} is really making me question the quality and ability for GM to stand behind their products.

Cadij,

Pursuing the lemon law for my vehicle would mean that I would have to purchase the replacement. I lease my vehicles which currently is not possible. Besides, what good would it do to replace my 08 vehicle with an 09 if the same problem exists?

Honestly, I think that Cadillac knows what the problem is but they are unable to come up with a "cheap fix". Believe me they are aware of this condition; they have bought back many vehicles at this point and will continue to if they can't fix the problem.

Here is the bulletin you requested.

Document ID: 2185054


Document ID: 2185054


Page 1 of 1



#PIP4444A: Low Frequency High Pressure Boom Or First Order Driveline Vibration At Speeds Above Approximately 40MPH - keywords prop shaft - (Sep 4, 2008)



Subject:
Models:


Low Frequency, High Pressure Boom or First-Order Driveline Vibration at Speeds Above Approximately 40 MPH
2008-2009 Cadillac CTS






This PI was superseded to update model years and diagnostic procedure. Please discard PIP4444.
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.


Some customers may comment on a low frequency, high pressure boom, like driving with a rear window part way down, or: a vibration when driving at speeds above approximately 40 mph. This condition is present over a wider speed range than the concern described in the most current version of PIP4435. This condition is not affected by whether or not the TCC is turned on and may even be present in vehicles equipped with manual a transmission. This condition may be present when coasting down through the speed range with the transmission in neutral. Following the procedures in SI Document ID 1578894, "Diagnostic Starting Point - Vibration Diagnosis and Correction", may indicate a first order driveline disturbance.
Recom mendation I Instructions:
Verify the concern by duplicating the condition. If diagnosis using the J 38792-A, Electronic Vibration Analyzer (EVA) 2 confirms a first order disturbance, check for a propshaft issue by indexing the propshaft to the other two of the three positions. If the condition varies in intensity with the propshaft indexed to the other positions, or if the condition changes by substituting a propshaft from a known good vehicle,
perform the procedure in SI Document ID 1579481, "Driveline System Balance Adjustment (Using EVA)". If the prop shaft cannot be properly balanced using the EVA and swapping and or indexing the prop shaft did change the concern replace the prop shaft. In all cases, the rear drive axle SHOULD NOT be presumed to be the cause of the vibration unless the propshaft is completely eliminated as a potential cause.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.



GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properiy trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properiy and safely. If a condition Is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
© 2008 General Motors Corporation. All rights reserved.
http://gsi.xw.gm.com/si/showDoc.do?d...185054&from=bs

[MoFex]

Caddue

thank you for the information. I was suspecting it long time ago. And was bashed for that. Now it seems that finally GM recognized this issue. It only shows how "tight" the manufacturing tolerances are.

Ii just hope that somebody in GM gets it resolved. I really wanted to buy an American car and I did. And I am prepared to pay premium for it. However, I want decent quality. C'mon GM it is not that difficult!

[DavidL]

I also agree that this issue should be resolved; just know that not all CTS cars had this problem from 'day one': I took delivery on August 2007; NO problems at all.

[C "T" ess]

Has anyone considered that the majority if not all complaints come from DI engines. Given the speeds reported I would bet it could be an unbalanced harmonic balancer . This could cause the very problem everyone is describing? It's worth exploring.

[CadiJ]

You may have a point here. My Service manager said that he just had a STS 3.6di in for the shudder issue (the #3 issue that I point out in my original post)... And further said, I don't think I have ever seen a STS in for this issue "plunty of CTS's have this problem" but seeing it on a STS is new to me...

I asked, "Was it a STS with the 3.6di?" And he said, "oh yeah, in fact it was..."

It could be a harmonic balancer however I am personally convinced that it is the drive train "system" all of it (minus the engine) there is just too much sloppy play in it... The shudder/stumble and even "wagg" I can feel my car from the back end wagg (I know sounds odd) is not a feeling I have ever felt before - it's just odd...

I just returned from a business trip... On my trip I rented a 2008 Toyota Rav4. I have to say that it was much smoother riding/driving than my 2009 CTS

Originally Posted by C "T" ess

Has anyone considered that the majority if not all complaints come from DI engines. Given the speeds reported I would bet it could be an unbalanced harmonic balancer . This could cause the very problem everyone is describing? It's worth exploring.

[Caddue]

Originally Posted by C "T" ess

Has anyone considered that the majority if not all complaints come from DI engines. Given the speeds reported I would bet it could be an unbalanced harmonic balancer . This could cause the very problem everyone is describing? It's worth exploring.

My vehicle is standard engine. The vibration is definitely coming from the transmission on back. To prove your theory incorrect, if the vehicle is shifted into neutral and coasts with the engine now at idle, it still happens.

[CadiJ]

I am really starting to get pissed off at Cadillac and GM. As a first time Cadillac owner I continue to try and be very reasonable with my issue. I have realized that Cadillac's "Customer Service" is a complete and total joke -- at least when it comes to offering a "official position" and resolution to the vibration issue that MANY CTS owners are faced with.

I am currently on hold with what is billed as "Cadillac Customer Service" yet again trying to get some sort of answer from them. I reported the vibration 3 weeks after I purchased my 2009 CTS, it only had 700 miles at the time (1st week of Dec). Subsequent trips to the dealer to document this issue and several calls back into Cadillac each week only to hear, "Sorry sir, we do not have any updated information we'll have to call you back..." Then I never get a phone call back -- well I take that back, I received one voice mail that said, "Sorry we don't have any information we'll call you back…"

Not even close to what I would consider world class customer service…

I also found the following thread, again pointing to the vibration issue.

Does anyone from Cadillac/GM look into this forum??? Cadillac/GM if you are watching would you please step up and help? I really don't want to make a YouTube video about my 1st ever experience with Cadillac...

***
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...52-72-mph.html
***

[lavaman]

Originally Posted by Caddue

Cadij,

Pursuing the lemon law for my vehicle would mean that I would have to purchase the replacement. I lease my vehicles which currently is not possible. Besides, what good would it do to replace my 08 vehicle with an 09 if the same problem exists?

Honestly, I think that Cadillac knows what the problem is but they are unable to come up with a "cheap fix". Believe me they are aware of this condition; they have bought back many vehicles at this point and will continue to if they can't fix the problem.

Here is the bulletin you requested.

Document ID: 2185054


Document ID: 2185054


Page 1 of 1



#PIP4444A: Low Frequency High Pressure Boom Or First Order Driveline Vibration At Speeds Above Approximately 40MPH - keywords prop shaft - (Sep 4, 2008)



Subject:
Models:


Low Frequency, High Pressure Boom or First-Order Driveline Vibration at Speeds Above Approximately 40 MPH
2008-2009 Cadillac CTS






This PI was superseded to update model years and diagnostic procedure. Please discard PIP4444.
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.


Some customers may comment on a low frequency, high pressure boom, like driving with a rear window part way down, or: a vibration when driving at speeds above approximately 40 mph. This condition is present over a wider speed range than the concern described in the most current version of PIP4435. This condition is not affected by whether or not the TCC is turned on and may even be present in vehicles equipped with manual a transmission. This condition may be present when coasting down through the speed range with the transmission in neutral. Following the procedures in SI Document ID 1578894, "Diagnostic Starting Point - Vibration Diagnosis and Correction", may indicate a first order driveline disturbance.
Recom mendation I Instructions:
Verify the concern by duplicating the condition. If diagnosis using the J 38792-A, Electronic Vibration Analyzer (EVA) 2 confirms a first order disturbance, check for a propshaft issue by indexing the propshaft to the other two of the three positions. If the condition varies in intensity with the propshaft indexed to the other positions, or if the condition changes by substituting a propshaft from a known good vehicle,
perform the procedure in SI Document ID 1579481, "Driveline System Balance Adjustment (Using EVA)". If the prop shaft cannot be properly balanced using the EVA and swapping and or indexing the prop shaft did change the concern replace the prop shaft. In all cases, the rear drive axle SHOULD NOT be presumed to be the cause of the vibration unless the propshaft is completely eliminated as a potential cause.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.



GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properiy trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properiy and safely. If a condition Is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.
© 2008 General Motors Corporation. All rights reserved.
http://gsi.xw.gm.com/si/showDoc.do?d...185054&from=bs

The drone/vibration issue found in some of our CTS's appears to be exactly what I experienced with my 07 Pontiac Solstice GXP... infact the propshaft setup is much the same as the CTS.

To resolve the "Shimmy" issue I had with my CTS I spent my own time working along with one of my brothers. I was at his shop using his roadforce balancer to correctly identify 2 defective Michelin tires. After they were replaced...no more shimmy.

I do not have the "Drone/vibration" issue with my CTS but I did with my Solstice. To identify the source of the vibration I also spent my own time at my brother's shop. Since I could feel the vibration while accelerating, maintaining speed, or coasting in neutral I thought I could also feel it while the tires were off the ground (On a lift at the Goodyear store with a helper in the car running it at 45 mph) Sure enough we could feel the vibration by touching the diff with our hands. I re-indexed the propshaft myself..made no change. We felt the problem was either the propshaft or inside the diff. I then made an appointment with my pontiac dealer. I spent my time again test driving the car with the tech and also in the shop demonstrating what I found at the Goodyear shop. Long story short... they replaced the prop shaft to solve the vibration. From what GM is saying in this TSB, it seems they know the problem is in the prop shaft. It was for my Solstice.

I would like to suggest that someone that has the "Drone/vibration" in their CTS to get it up on a lift and have it run at the speed it produces the vibration. Find out for yourself where the vibration originates. I was in the auto repair industry long enough to know that some techs just do not care about excellence and I take matters in my own hands when I can.

I think I stated months ago I suspected the propshaft. I did so because of my Solstice experience coupled with the similarity between these 2 car's drivelines.

Come on GM! Step up to the plate and resolve this. Even if it hurts.

[racer50200]

Aren't there shops out there that can balance drivesha...... I mean, propshafts?? It would be an interesting experiment.

[CadiJ]

I think you could easily take your CTS to a 3rd party vendor to have them balance the shaft but - two probelms I forsee:

1.) The driveshaft/propshaft is NOT the only issue as other CTS owners had their drive shaft balanced or completely replaced and it only SLIGHTLY helped

2.) GM would most likely void the warranty if a NON GM dealer touched the CTS in any way shape or form. That's a risk I am not willing to take...

Originally Posted by racer50200

Aren't there shops out there that can balance drivesha...... I mean, propshafts?? It would be an interesting experiment.

[Jimls]

Had my 08 CTS performance package in on Friday Jan 23 for an alignment re-do and oil change and I discussed the vibration issue again with my new service advisor. She wrote everything down and said she would call me. To make a long story short, I was called at 4pm to come in and test drive with the shop foreman, unfortunately some of us work so I was not able to do this.
I asked why a test drive as we have done this before and she mentioned that a new TSB just came out that that dealt with the vibration issue but she was not sure if it applied to my circumstance (ie. 1200-1400rpm etc). I was told that it had to do with a computer reprogram. I am sorry for being so vague on this but this was all the info I received as she was even unsure about it because it was so recent. I told her I would reschedule but that will not be for a while.
I was hoping that someone on the forum might have a friend/advisor who would be privy to more information on this update. I will also try to get more info but it might be a while.
Thanks Jim

[CadiJ]

Hello Jim,

I have a similar vibration issue...

I was told my Service Manager, "You have the latest transmission program." I still have a significant vibration...

Off the record, the SM said this {my vibration} is, "Not just a programming issue…"

I will say that yesterday I drove round trip from my town to Ft. Lauderdale, FL about an hour each way. It is clear that when I am on a long drive and my CTS is hot, the vibration goes from "Bad" to "Really Bad" not sure what the heat has to do with it but that tells me the vibration is not computer related...

This is so frustrating and Cadillac Customer service has not returned my phone call in three weeks. I have left 4 messages with my rep at the 1-800 number and haven't gotten a call back. When I call and ask for a supervisor at the 1-800 number I get thrown back into the voice mail box for the rep who won't call me back... My Service manager hasn't even gotten a call back from Cadillac on this - absolutely unreal...

Originally Posted by Jimls

Had my 08 CTS performance package in on Friday Jan 23 for an alignment re-do and oil change and I discussed the vibration issue again with my new service advisor. She wrote everything down and said she would call me. To make a long story short, I was called at 4pm to come in and test drive with the shop foreman, unfortunately some of us work so I was not able to do this.
I asked why a test drive as we have done this before and she mentioned that a new TSB just came out that that dealt with the vibration issue but she was not sure if it applied to my circumstance (ie. 1200-1400rpm etc). I was told that it had to do with a computer reprogram. I am sorry for being so vague on this but this was all the info I received as she was even unsure about it because it was so recent. I told her I would reschedule but that will not be for a while.
I was hoping that someone on the forum might have a friend/advisor who would be privy to more information on this update. I will also try to get more info but it might be a while.
Thanks Jim

[STS2002]

Originally Posted by CadiJ

Hello Jim,

I have a similar vibration issue...

I was told my Service Manager, "You have the latest transmission program." I still have a significant vibration...

Off the record, the SM said this {my vibration} is, "Not just a programming issue…"

I will say that yesterday I drove round trip from my town to Ft. Lauderdale, FL about an hour each way. It is clear that when I am on a long drive and my CTS is hot, the vibration goes from "Bad" to "Really Bad" not sure what the heat has to do with it but that tells me the vibration is not computer related...

This is so frustrating and Cadillac Customer service has not returned my phone call in three weeks. I have left 4 messages with my rep at the 1-800 number and haven't gotten a call back. When I call and ask for a supervisor at the 1-800 number I get thrown back into the voice mail box for the rep who won't call me back... My Service manager hasn't even gotten a call back from Cadillac on this - absolutely unreal...

CadiJ-

I live in the tampa area and i will agree that heat affects the tires. My vibration is the "steering shimmy" that is intermitten, but it does get worse when the temperature is hotter and humid. Cool and dry...absolutely smooth as glass. I don't really understand it, but it's something that the dealership wouldn't believe me if i questioned it. I told a friend of mine that works at a tire shop about that and he told me any vibration should be worse during colder temps because the tires are more prone to flat spotting. Oh well....

At this point I am a firm believer that GM put crap tires on our cars. I had the same Michelin tires on my STS and the dealer ended up replacing all the tires.

[CadiJ]

Hi STS 2002,

Thanks for the note. My vibration has nothing to do with the tires. There is a major shudder going on with my 2009 CTS when I apply any gas... The longer I drive the worse the shudder/stumble gets and it's not minor what-so-ever...

The tires have been RFB'ed and are perfect, absolutely NO steering wheel shake/shimmy. I had massive shimmy on my 1st 2009 CTS which was a June production which I returned to the dealer after 500 miles.

As of today it is official, Thank you Cadillac, because of your horrific customer service, and the fact that on your own accord you have absolutely no fix for my 2009 CTS I can say with certanty that, "I do not identify with the Cadillac Brand..."

The lack of support from Cadillac makes me feel that taking a leep of faith in a luxury domestic, when I bought my 2nd 2009 CTS (OCT Production) was the worst car purchase decision of my lifetime - what was I thinking?!

The CTS is a beautiful design but the more I deal with the car the more shortcomings come to light PLUS, when the going gets tough, Cadillac offers absolutely no customer support what so ever.

It is so odd that so many people have drive train vibration issues and since October of 2007 Cadillac has been saying, "we are working on a fix..."

I wish I could record the 1-800 Cadillac Cust. Service calls, unreal...

Two words:
LEMON LAW!!

Originally Posted by STS2002

CadiJ-

I live in the tampa area and i will agree that heat affects the tires. My vibration is the "steering shimmy" that is intermitten, but it does get worse when the temperature is hotter and humid. Cool and dry...absolutely smooth as glass. I don't really understand it, but it's something that the dealership wouldn't believe me if i questioned it. I told a friend of mine that works at a tire shop about that and he told me any vibration should be worse during colder temps because the tires are more prone to flat spotting. Oh well....

At this point I am a firm believer that GM put crap tires on our cars. I had the same Michelin tires on my STS and the dealer ended up replacing all the tires.