Stop oil coking on intake valves
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2008-2013 Cadillac CTS Performance Mods Discussion, Stop oil coking on intake valves in Cadillac CTS Second Generation Forum - 2008-2013; ...
  1. #1
    SC2150's Avatar
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    Stop oil coking on intake valves

    And here is more data directly from GM on the subject:

    Engnineering Systems
    Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 2

    Re: How to Clean The PCV tube on 05' CTS 3.6

    I usually lurk in the background, but this is getting out of hand. SC2150 has the up-most knowledge on this matter and I have personally been to his shop and inspected engines both with and without catch cans. It is in fact a fact that without fuel spraying on the valve stems that they will in fact lose efficiency and need cleaning, this is published by GM.

    Service Information
    Home Publications Number Search New Bulletins Bulletin Search Feedback Help
    2011 Cadillac CTS | CTS VIN D Service Manual | Document ID: 2863222
    #PIP5029: Engine Misfires Due To Major Carbon Deposits On The Intake And/Or Exhaust Valves - (May 29, 2012)
    Subject: Engine Misfires Due To Major Carbon Deposits On The Intake And/Or Exhaust Valves

    Models: 2008 - 2012 Cadillac CTS, STS
    2008 - 2010 Chevrolet Cobalt SS, HHR SS
    2007 - 2010 Pontiac Solstice GXP
    2007 - 2010 Saturn Sky Redline
    2009 - 2012 Buick Enclave
    2009 - 2012 Buick Lacrosse
    2009 - 2012 Chevrolet Traverse
    2009 - 2012 GMC Acadia
    2009 Saturn Outlook
    2010 - 2012 Cadillac SRX
    2010 - 2012 Chevrolet Camaro, Equinox
    2010 - 2012 GMC Terrain
    With any of the Following Direct Injected Gasoline Engines:
    2.0 (RPO LNF)
    2.4L (RPO LAF, LEA, or LUK)
    2.8L (RPO LAU)
    3.0L (RPO LF1)
    3.6L (RPO LFX or LLT)

    The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
    Condition/Concern:

    Some customers may complain of a MIL and engine misfire. In some cases, the misfire may be more apparent on a cold start, may count on a single cylinder or several cylinders, and may or may not be felt by the driver. Upon inspection, the technician will find one or more misfire codes (DTC P0300-P0306) stored in the ECM and SI diagnosis may or may not isolate the cause of the misfire depending on whether the intake/exhaust valves are sticking at the time of the diagnosis.

    This may be the result of major carbon build up on the intake and/or exhaust valves as shown below so the misfires should not have appeared until the engine has accumulated around 5,000 miles or more.

    Recommendation/Instructions:

    If this concern is encountered, perform SI diagnosis. If SI diagnosis isolates a valve sealing concern and/or eliminates everything else external to the engine, decarbon the engine with Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner by following the guidelines below:

    Important Extreme care must be taken not to hydrolock the engine when inducing the cleaner, especially if it is induced without Kent Moore Tool # J-35800-A. If too much cleaner is induced at too low of a RPM, or if you force the engine to stall by inducing too much cleaner at once, the engine may hydrolock and bend a connecting rod(s).
    1. In a well-ventilated area with the engine at operating temperature, slowly/carefully induce a bottle of GM Upper Engine and Fuel Injection Cleaner into the engine with RPM off of idle enough to prevent it from stalling (typically around 2,000 RPM or so). Depending on the engine configuration, induce the cleaner through the throttle body or an engine vacuum hose/pipe. For best results, it is suggested to induce the cleaner with Kent Moore Tool # J-35800-A (shown below).
    2. Turn the engine off after inducing the cleaner and allow the cleaner to soak with the engine off for 2.5 to 3 hours (Do not let cleaner soak for more than 3 hours as remaining deposits may start to harden back up again).
    3. Add a bottle of GM Fuel System Treatment Plus to the fuel tank and fill the vehicle with one of the Top Tier gasolines listed at http://www.toptiergas.com and/or in the latest version of 04-06-04-047 (USA) or 05-06-04-022 (Canada). See Bulletin 05-00-89-078 for more details on GM Fuel System Treatment Plus.
    4. Test drive the vehicle extensively to circulate the GM Fuel System Treatment Plus, which will help to eliminate/reduce any remaining intake valve deposits.
    5. Re-evaluate the concern to determine if it is repaired or improved at all. If the concern is improved but not repaired, it may be necessary to perform the above decarboning process a 2nd time.
    6. To complete the repairs, advise the customer to only use one of the Top Tier Gasolines listed at http://www.toptiergas.com and/or in the latest version of 04-06-04-047 (USA) or 05-06-04-022 (Canada) to minimize future deposits. It can also be recommended to add a bottle of GM Fuel System Treatment Plus at every oil change as mentioned in the latest version of 04-06-04-051.
    Kent Moore Tool # J-35800-A
    Upper Engine and Fuel Injector Cleaner

    Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.

    GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

    WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION
    © 2012 General Motors. All rights reserved.

    By utilizing the catch can you will reduce to eliminate most of the deposits that build up on the valve stems, I have had one on my engine now for quite a while and using a bore light I have seen very little to no build up, and especially I have not had to have this costly cleaning done. If I had not had this catch can I would have spent over twice the cost for upper induction cleanings. I am in the Industry and see the added benefit of using this system. SO before you try and dis-credit SC2150 you better have a lot more than your un-proven opinion and back up your shortcomings with real world facts.

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  3. #2
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    Re: Product reivew: The Black Ice-Olater by VMax - Intake Phenolic Spacer

    The top tier fuel in a DI motor is not going to help the deposits at all as it never touches the intake side of the valves where these deposits form. On a non-DI the fuel additives work quite well.

    On a DI motor, the fuel is not introduced until well into the compression stroke when the intake valves have long closed, and it is in the combustion chamber only milleseconds before the explosion and it does little to keep any of it clean as you can see on the pistons below in 8k miles....just where it is introduced does it help keep deposits from forming, but the high CR of the DI motors (Mazda just rekeased one w.13:1!!!) and the ultra high pressure of the fuel spray very little deposits form on the piston tops....only in the combustion chamber of the cylinder head.....but the valves are a different story.

    The oil ingestion is what causes these and the throttle body buildup. If you separate and trap the oil before it ingests into the intake air charge there is nothing passing the valves or reversion coating the TB bore and blade so you will never have to have them cleaned.

    The biggest issue is the build-up occurs rapidly with DI motors....here are pictures from relatively low mileage motors (8k miles on the first one):



    and take a few minutes to pull your plenum cover off to see just how much oil is being ingested by these motors...and it is ALL of them:



    Below is from a LY7 w/app 60k miles on it....the fuel helps slow the deposits, but not on a DI motor:


    Now here are the pictures from the GM service bulliten above:






    So, if your car is new, install a GOOD catchcan (most let as much oil through as they catch) and you prevent this from ever happening, and besides the gunk buildup, you will see more power and better fuel economy (1-3 mpg avg) as you have prevented the detonation that the oil causes and thus the ECU is not pulling timing to protect the pistons from damage.

    The picture below shows a IM on the left from a car brought right from the dealer to the shop and the RX catchcan and breather kit installed, the one on the right with similar miles (both between 8 & 10k miles) without one:




    Want to view all the pictures on our photobucket page? : http://photobucket.com/revx1

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    Stop oil coking on intake valves

    If you have a 2008 and up DI engine, this is what is happening to your engine:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=inta...w=2021&bih=875

    Installing the RX oil separating system prevents this from occurring, and anyone that has removed their intake manifold can attest to how bad this issue is.
    Want more details? Just ask and I am happy to answer and provide more tech info.

    The solution?

    Have updated all the RX systems with high quality 1/4 turn ball valve drains, and inline flow controlling checkvalves that are silent in operation, and AN fittings standard on the dual valve now:



    For the clean side (your filtered, metered fresh make up air) the 1LE style RX Billet cleanside separator maintains a closed system and prevents cleanside oil ingestion, yet keeps the entire system closed and the air 100% metered by the MAF. It has a cleanable coalescing element and replaces the oil fill cap similar to the standard breather kit. It will NOT fit under the hood on a V6, only the V8's:




    As always, cans, etc. in most any color you want no extra charge.

    www.RevXtreme.com or call 941-721-1826 to order.
    Email for pricing and support:
    RXProducts@aol.com
    RX YouTube Channel
    Sales (727) 235 1713

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    Re: Stop oil coking on intake valves

    Here's a photo of the oil that the RX catch can caught from my engine in approx 5000kms. The jar is 500ml so that's about 200ml or almost 7oz collected. I wish I would have know about this sooner!

    IMG_00000096R.jpg

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    Re: Stop oil coking on intake valves

    We have a test 3.6L DI that had the RX can installed day one new, and it had 68k miles on the last he stopped in and we put the boroscope in....but at 68k miles there was zero buildup on the valves, only a light "dusty" looking residue.
    Email for pricing and support:
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    Re: Stop oil coking on intake valves

    Is this what everyone refers to as a "catch can"? What exactly does it do and would it negate the factory warranty? Thanks.

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    Re: Stop oil coking on intake valves

    Cant effect warranty as it does not have any negative effect on any engine part, just the opposite.

    Yes, but 99% of the cans out there are no more than a empty can with 2 fittings installed, and even some of the bigger names still allow 30-40% of the oil to pass right through.

    You only want air/fuel mixture in your combustion chamber, oil does not burn clean and leaves harmful deposits, and with today direct injection engines there is no fuel spray hitting the intake valve to keep them from building deposits like the older port injection engines. Just look at a Shell placard on a fuel pump of a dirty and clean valve for an example.

    Here is a traditional port injection where the detergent additives in top tier fuels keeps the intake valve deposit free:



    And a direct injection engine where the fuel never touches the intake valve:




    A properly designed catchcan traps and removes the oil mist from the crankcase evac system eliminating the buildup.

    Here is what intake valves on a DI engine look like after as little as 10k miles causing loss of power and fuel economy:



    And what a super charger intercooler looks like in 15k miles:




    Simple installation but requires draining the can at regular intervals and disposing of the oil and the damaging compounds caught with it. Every 4-5k miles with most engines.
    Email for pricing and support:
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    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150
    Cant effect warranty as it does not have any negative effect on any engine part, just the opposite. Yes, but 99% of the cans out there are no more than a empty can with 2 fittings installed, and even some of the bigger names still allow 30-40% of the oil to pass right through. You only want air/fuel mixture in your combustion chamber, oil does not burn clean and leaves harmful deposits, and with today direct injection engines there is no fuel spray hitting the intake valve to keep them from building deposits like the older port injection engines. Just look at a Shell placard on a fuel pump of a dirty and clean valve for an example. Here is a traditional port injection where the detergent additives in top tier fuels keeps the intake valve deposit free: And a direct injection engine where the fuel never touches the intake valve: A properly designed catchcan traps and removes the oil mist from the crankcase evac system eliminating the buildup. Here is what intake valves on a DI engine look like after as little as 10k miles causing loss of power and fuel economy: And what a super charger intercooler looks like in 15k miles: Simple installation but requires draining the can at regular intervals and disposing of the oil and the damaging compounds caught with it. Every 4-5k miles with most engines.
    A question for you.... I posted this a while ago hoping you would answer.

    I installed the catch can, but I notice when hot I get the odor of crankcase fumes when standing outside near he front of the car. I don't have any leaks and I just went in for an oil change and they didn't find any leaks either.

    Normal?

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    Re: Stop oil coking on intake valves

    Should not be any odor as the system remains closed per emissions, can you post detailed pictures of how its routed? Thx.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150
    Should not be any odor as the system remains closed per emissions, can you post detailed pictures of how its routed? Thx.
    Apparently I have reached my quota on pictures. Can you PM me you email address and I will send.

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    Re: Stop oil coking on intake valves

    Just email: RXProducts@aol.com
    Email for pricing and support:
    RXProducts@aol.com
    RX YouTube Channel
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    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150
    Just email: RXProducts@aol.com
    Done. Thanks.

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    Re: Stop oil coking on intake valves

    Does the same thing happen to the SFI 3.6L engine? I noticed the DI was only quoted above.

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    Re: Stop oil coking on intake valves

    Quote Originally Posted by rfdude View Post
    Does the same thing happen to the SFI 3.6L engine? I noticed the DI was only quoted above.
    Less so. As I believe has been stated in this thread, in traditional port injected engines the fuel (which contains detergents) travels through the intake ports and over the valves helping to keep them clean. Direct injected engines (hence the name) spray fuel directly into the cylinder, as a result the intake ports and valves do not get the benefit of the detergents in the fuel.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    Should not be any odor as the system remains closed per emissions, can you post detailed pictures of how its routed? Thx.
    After our email exchange I removed the tubes and pushed them in a bit tighter. Might even consider even putting clamps on them, but it seems as though the odor has disappeared. I will continue to check.

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    Re: Stop oil coking on intake valves

    go hawk is correct on the SFI versions. There the top tier fuel detergents do a great job of keeping the intake valves free of coking:


    But you still have the reduced power and fuel economy of the oil contaminating the combustion process and any detonation as a result.
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