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2008-2013 Cadillac CTS Performance Mods Discussion, Catch Can Install in Cadillac CTS Second Generation Forum - 2008-2013; Well if it came with one from the factory, what are the consequences if it wasn't drained for 20k miles? ...
  1. #91
    arw1510 is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Well if it came with one from the factory, what are the consequences if it wasn't drained for 20k miles? Idk if they would want the liability of it with people who aren't good on regular maintenance

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    Re: Catch Can Install

    Anyone wanting to see their valves in person, stop in. Will not charge to slip the boroscope in and show you in person just how bad this issue is. And arw150 summed it up properly. The factory solutions to date are all returning the trapped oil to the crankcase and if a solution is any better than app 20% effectiveness then it begins to also trap the damaging combustion byproducts and that will kill a motor quicker than most anything if not constantly evacuated while still in a suspended state. So there is no way (to date at least) to have an effective solution and NOT have to add another maintenance step to drain the junk at regular intervals.

    And anyone that has any assumption that this is a GM only issue just has to look at all the pictures contributed by techs from every make of DI engine out there domestic and import, and this includes 4 stroke outboards, motorcycles, and snowmobiles:


    https://www.google.com/search?q=inta...=isch&imgdii=_

    http://drivegeek.wordpress.com/2011/...nd-a-solution/

    https://www.google.com/search?q=inta...w=2021&bih=875
    RX Performance Products/RevXtreme.com 941-721-1826

  3. #93
    Mistercoffee2's Avatar
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    Re: Catch Can Install

    Quote Originally Posted by arw1510 View Post
    Well if it came with one from the factory, what are the consequences if it wasn't drained for 20k miles? Idk if they would want the liability of it with people who aren't good on regular maintenance
    What's the liability, you get oil in the intake? I think that's what we have now. Any 2nd year engineering student could design a bypass system. How about building an air/oil separator into the valve cover so no, or very little, oil comes out.

    Just saying. But as was said in the article, the solution may very well be to stop the buildup on the valves with some coating and burn the oil as non DI engines do.

    It's not realistic to think VW and GM didn't try and reject the simple catch can.

  4. #94
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    Re: Catch Can Install

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    Anyone wanting to see their valves in person, stop in. Will not charge to slip the boroscope in and show you in person just how bad this issue is. And arw150 summed it up properly. The factory solutions to date are all returning the trapped oil to the crankcase and if a solution is any better than app 20% effectiveness then it begins to also trap the damaging combustion byproducts and that will kill a motor quicker than most anything if not constantly evacuated while still in a suspended state. So there is no way (to date at least) to have an effective solution and NOT have to add another maintenance step to drain the junk at regular intervals.

    And anyone that has any assumption that this is a GM only issue just has to look at all the pictures contributed by techs from every make of DI engine out there domestic and import, and this includes 4 stroke outboards, motorcycles, and snowmobiles:


    https://www.google.com/search?q=inta...=isch&imgdii=_

    http://drivegeek.wordpress.com/2011/...nd-a-solution/

    https://www.google.com/search?q=inta...w=2021&bih=875

    I think your constant use of these ugly photos in your posts is designed to alarm and very much self serving.

  5. #95
    UpstateJonNY is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistercoffee2 View Post

    I think your constant use of these ugly photos in your posts is designed to alarm and very much self serving.
    Agreed mistercoffee2. The gentleman may be correct, but he has a financial interest in convincing owners they need this product. The most telling indicator: had Cadillac addressed this for the 3rd gen CTS?
    MT car of the year, and designed to be a world beater. I don't think they would allow a potential issue this big after all the lessons they have learned in the last 5 years.

  6. #96
    UpstateJonNY is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by UpstateJonNY View Post

    Agreed mistercoffee2. The gentleman may be correct, but he has a financial interest in convincing owners they need this product. The most telling indicator: had Cadillac addressed this for the 3rd gen CTS?
    MT car of the year, and designed to be a world beater. I don't think they would allow a potential issue this big after all the lessons they have learned in the last 5 years.
    I also do not buy the argument that a catch can is needed, but left off, because consumers could not handle the maintenance. See MB Bluetec Diesels. These use urea injection to treat emissions. I don't know of any aftermarket urea suppliers, aside from the obvious. So I believe it must be dealer serviced. When the urea container nears empty the system gives several warnings. If not remedied the vehicle eventually will not start.
    Cleaning a catch can filter seems relatively simple by comparison.

  7. #97
    SC2150's Avatar
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    Re: Catch Can Install

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistercoffee2 View Post
    What's the liability, you get oil in the intake? I think that's what we have now. Any 2nd year engineering student could design a bypass system. How about building an air/oil separator into the valve cover so no, or very little, oil comes out.

    Just saying. But as was said in the article, the solution may very well be to stop the buildup on the valves with some coating and burn the oil as non DI engines do.

    It's not realistic to think VW and GM didn't try and reject the simple catch can.
    They have improved the valve cover baffle system to (quote from GM) " reduce oil ingestion by up to 300% better than previous designs". But they cannot make a separator that returns the oil to the crankcase any more efficient than app. 20% or it begins to also trap and return the damaging combustion byproducts that the PCV system must evacuate and remove while still in suspension. Only an external device can do this. If you thinkkoil ingestion in your intake air charge is not harmful, by all means live with it....most do.

    Then by all means don't use one...the photos are actual 3.6DI and non DI engines and more, I did not submit all of them...they are from techs from every manufacturer you can think of and they certainly have nothing to gain by sharing them. And to bypass the PCV system will result in drastically shortened engine life if your not removing the combustion byproducts while still in a suspended state. And anyone is welcome to bring their car in and see this in person, on their car, at not charge...then there is no "he said, she said"...it is right there to see in person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mistercoffee2 View Post
    I think your constant use of these ugly photos in your posts is designed to alarm and very much self serving.
    Quote Originally Posted by UpstateJonNY View Post
    Agreed mistercoffee2. The gentleman may be correct, but he has a financial interest in convincing owners they need this product. The most telling indicator: had Cadillac addressed this for the 3rd gen CTS?
    MT car of the year, and designed to be a world beater. I don't think they would allow a potential issue this big after all the lessons they have learned in the last 5 years.
    If all my goal was purely financial, I certainly would not endorse competitors products that also do a good job at preventing these issues. And why does GM and every other auto manufacturer try to sell you upper induction cleaning services to "remove harmful intake valve deposits and restore lost power & fuel economy" every 10k miles at a cost of more than a good catchcan that eliminates the need for it?

    GM did address one of the issues, the PCV barb fixed orfice is now of a larger diameter than in the past...just as I have shared on these forums to mod for years. But that is only a partial fix.



    Quote Originally Posted by UpstateJonNY View Post
    I also do not buy the argument that a catch can is needed, but left off, because consumers could not handle the maintenance. See MB Bluetec Diesels. These use urea injection to treat emissions. I don't know of any aftermarket urea suppliers, aside from the obvious. So I believe it must be dealer serviced. When the urea container nears empty the system gives several warnings. If not remedied the vehicle eventually will not start.
    Cleaning a catch can filter seems relatively simple by comparison.
    Apples and oranges. Diesels and urea injection is for emission's, this is on a gasoline 4 stroke engine and for internal build up. And a diesel engine is nothing like a gasoline engine. Try and fill up with diesel and see how well your car runs.

    These threads are not for those that are satisfied with the way your car came from the factory. These are for those that care about the best care, best performance, best economy, and longest life from their pride and joy. And there would hardly be so many non-stop industry publications and engineering blogs on this issue if it was not a concern. You have an engine used in some of the lowest cost vehicles in America.....the engineers hardly have unlimited budgets for the best solutions to issues....these are not Ferrari's or Bentley's costing several hundred thousand $ where engineers can develop the best solutions. If your logic was sound there would never be a need for an aftermarket CAI, exhaust, suspension, camshaft, blowers, heat exchangers, tires, brakes, etc. as they would already be the best possible. And GM certainly would not have changed the design of the 3.67L fixed orfice PCV barb after over 10 years of the problem prone one to a copy of the modified one we have been posting about with instructions on how to modify for years.

    It is a free country, you can treat your vehicle as you choose...but to argue opinion (I assume you are not a GM tech or engine builder such as I am, correct? and I have been for over 39 years) VS actual facts and industry data serves no one here that does want the best.
    RX Performance Products/RevXtreme.com 941-721-1826

  8. #98
    calif phil is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Catch Can Install

    SC2150 What year did GM change the PCV barb to a bigger one?

    p.s. thanks for all the info you provide to this forum. It's nice to hear from someone who has as much experience as you do with these 3.6's
    bluefleetwood likes this.

  9. #99
    UpstateJonNY is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post

    They have improved the valve cover baffle system to (quote from GM) " reduce oil ingestion by up to 300% better than previous designs". But they cannot make a separator that returns the oil to the crankcase any more efficient than app. 20% or it begins to also trap and return the damaging combustion byproducts that the PCV system must evacuate and remove while still in suspension. Only an external device can do this. If you thinkkoil ingestion in your intake air charge is not harmful, by all means live with it....most do.

    Then by all means don't use one...the photos are actual 3.6DI and non DI engines and more, I did not submit all of them...they are from techs from every manufacturer you can think of and they certainly have nothing to gain by sharing them. And to bypass the PCV system will result in drastically shortened engine life if your not removing the combustion byproducts while still in a suspended state. And anyone is welcome to bring their car in and see this in person, on their car, at not charge...then there is no "he said, she said"...it is right there to see in person.

    If all my goal was purely financial, I certainly would not endorse competitors products that also do a good job at preventing these issues. And why does GM and every other auto manufacturer try to sell you upper induction cleaning services to "remove harmful intake valve deposits and restore lost power & fuel economy" every 10k miles at a cost of more than a good catchcan that eliminates the need for it?

    GM did address one of the issues, the PCV barb fixed orfice is now of a larger diameter than in the past...just as I have shared on these forums to mod for years. But that is only a partial fix.

    Apples and oranges. Diesels and urea injection is for emission's, this is on a gasoline 4 stroke engine and for internal build up. And a diesel engine is nothing like a gasoline engine. Try and fill up with diesel and see how well your car runs.

    These threads are not for those that are satisfied with the way your car came from the factory. These are for those that care about the best care, best performance, best economy, and longest life from their pride and joy. And there would hardly be so many non-stop industry publications and engineering blogs on this issue if it was not a concern. You have an engine used in some of the lowest cost vehicles in America.....the engineers hardly have unlimited budgets for the best solutions to issues....these are not Ferrari's or Bentley's costing several hundred thousand $ where engineers can develop the best solutions. If your logic was sound there would never be a need for an aftermarket CAI, exhaust, suspension, camshaft, blowers, heat exchangers, tires, brakes, etc. as they would already be the best possible. And GM certainly would not have changed the design of the 3.67L fixed orfice PCV barb after over 10 years of the problem prone one to a copy of the modified one we have been posting about with instructions on how to modify for years.

    It is a free country, you can treat your vehicle as you choose...but to argue opinion (I assume you are not a GM tech or engine builder such as I am, correct? and I have been for over 39 years) VS actual facts and industry data serves no one here that does want the best.
    I think you may have missed my point on the diesel reference. And as I said, you may even be correct, but I was simply reminding folks of caveat emptor. You would probaby agree that the conversation is often steered towards these products that owners must have or risk severe consequences, across different sections and models in this forum, perhaps on different forums as well. A skeptic asks himself these questions. And as I said, a boroscope on one's own engine answers a lot of questions.

  10. #100
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    Re: Catch Can Install

    Quote Originally Posted by calif phil View Post
    SC2150 What year did GM change the PCV barb to a bigger one?

    p.s. thanks for all the info you provide to this forum. It's nice to hear from someone who has as much experience as you do with these 3.6's
    Mid 2013. We see some of the early 2013's still have the smaller orfice, but later and all 2014 have the larger size now. Eliminates much of the cleanside ingestion especially over time as the tiny orfices would clog with buildup.

    Quote Originally Posted by UpstateJonNY View Post
    I think you may have missed my point on the diesel reference. And as I said, you may even be correct, but I was simply reminding folks of caveat emptor. You would probaby agree that the conversation is often steered towards these products that owners must have or risk severe consequences, across different sections and models in this forum, perhaps on different forums as well. A skeptic asks himself these questions. And as I said, a boroscope on one's own engine answers a lot of questions.
    Have to agree 100% on the boroscope. We offer this service free just to show.

    If you have a DI engine, I would like to have you do so and take pictures to show. Simple to pull the intake manifold itself and see with a flashlight as well as the ports are not that deep.

    Here is how GM redesigned the new V8 valve covers with a very complex baffle/oil separating system:


    compared to the V8's from 1997 to 2013:


    RX Performance Products/RevXtreme.com 941-721-1826

  11. #101
    calif phil is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Thanks for the clarification on the barb. Can the bigger barb be retrofitted to my 2012?
    newcadman likes this.

  12. #102
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    Re: Catch Can Install

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    If you have a DI engine, I would like to have you do so and take pictures to show. Simple to pull the intake manifold itself and see with a flashlight as well as the ports are not that deep.
    Don't misunderstand my rants, I have no doubt the photos you show are real. I doubt your product fixes it.

    Any photos of a car that has run your can for 30K miles?

  13. #103
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    Re: Catch Can Install

    I just bought a 2009 cts with the 3.6DI motor with 50k miles. I run a catch can on my LS2 TBSS and am a firm believer in them. My first mod will be a catch can. My question is once I get this installed how do I clean the top end and get all the old oil that has already gotten into it?

  14. #104
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    Re: Catch Can Install

    Only because I'm ignorant, someone please help me understand how the intake valves acquire such build up when they are in the closed position during detonation and exhaust. If only filtered air is passing through them when they are opened?

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bluefleetwood View Post
    Only because I'm ignorant, someone please help me understand how the intake valves acquire such build up when they are in the closed position during detonation and exhaust. If only filtered air is passing through them when they are opened?
    Never mind, I just realized after I posted. That whole pcv......

  15. #105
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    Re: Catch Can Install

    Just checked my catch can today as I am going in for an oil change tomorrow morning. I was very surprised at what I found, it was about 3/4 full. I had just emptied it about a month ago. I live in the Chicago area and we have had some unusually cold weather. The content of the can was mostly what looked like water. Probably moisture, condensation out of the crankcase being caught in the can along with the normal oil mist. The can is doing a superb job of condensing the liquids out of the air stream.
    Everyone in a cold climate should take heed to empty it more frequently in the cold weather.

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