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2008-2013 Cadillac CTS Performance Mods Discussion, 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain... in Cadillac CTS Second Generation Forum - 2008-2013; I'm jealous of you guys with the lighter cars. The AWD wagon is a portly 4300 lbs or something like ...
  1. #76
    Wag-O-Neer is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    I'm jealous of you guys with the lighter cars. The AWD wagon is a portly 4300 lbs or something like that

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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wag-O-Neer View Post
    I'm jealous of you guys with the lighter cars. The AWD wagon is a portly 4300 lbs or something like that
    A supercharger from KPE would help with the power to weight ratio

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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Quote Originally Posted by MTL_CTS View Post
    A supercharger from KPE would help with the power to weight ratio
    Hmmm...I thought we were the only one super charging these? Fill me in if someone else is....details!

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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    The sticky at the top of the page... the supercharger is made by IPF-tuning KPE is one of the distributors sorry I should have specified lol

  5. #80
    leigh1322 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    a I just have to chime in here that 30oF is a really big air temperature difference. There is a reason virtually ever race car in the world has a cold-air intake or scoop - they work.

    Since I teach chemistry and physics, (as well as build race engines), maybe a little science is justified. I am not trying to continue this thread but some of the math oriented or intelligent people reading this thread might appreciate a little scientific justification and support for the 30hp claim being bashed here.

    A 30oF drop in air temp would result in almost exactly 10% less volume , and hence 10% denser air flow, since denisty is dependent on Charles' Gas Law and becomes maximaized at absolute zero. And room air temp is about 300 degrees above absolute zero, and it is a linear albeit inversely related correlation, hence the 10 percent density increase with colder air. So the theory is sound. And yes I purpously ignored any difference between celcius and farenheit so as not to make this too complicated.

    Point two the air temp could increase very quickly from all the radiated (radiant) heat inside the manifold. The air does not require contact with the surface to warm it. You get very warm from a fire even though you don't touch the flames don't you? And aluminum both conducts and radiates heat very well.

    Point three is well taken that some actual air temperature data would be nice, but I have never seen that done, excpet at the auto manufacurer engine development level, the speed equipment manufacturers usually just use final results or horsepower data, as was done here, so the air temp data is unecessary, since the theory is scientifically sound.

    There are always other unknown variables that can affect the results, but it actually the final (HP) results that most people care about most.

  6. #81
    Wag-O-Neer is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    ^^^ Great post.

    I posted this in my review thread, but I'll just leave it here too, for those researching this product.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNar5OFFdOc

  7. #82
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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Excelent video.

  8. #83
    16g-95gsx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Quote Originally Posted by leigh1322 View Post
    a I just have to chime in here that 30oF is a really big air temperature difference. There is a reason virtually ever race car in the world has a cold-air intake or scoop - they work.

    Since I teach chemistry and physics, (as well as build race engines), maybe a little science is justified. I am not trying to continue this thread but some of the math oriented or intelligent people reading this thread might appreciate a little scientific justification and support for the 30hp claim being bashed here.

    A 30oF drop in air temp would result in almost exactly 10% less volume , and hence 10% denser air flow, since denisty is dependent on Charles' Gas Law and becomes maximaized at absolute zero. And room air temp is about 300 degrees above absolute zero, and it is a linear albeit inversely related correlation, hence the 10 percent density increase with colder air. So the theory is sound. And yes I purpously ignored any difference between celcius and farenheit so as not to make this too complicated.

    Point two the air temp could increase very quickly from all the radiated (radiant) heat inside the manifold. The air does not require contact with the surface to warm it. You get very warm from a fire even though you don't touch the flames don't you? And aluminum both conducts and radiates heat very well.

    Point three is well taken that some actual air temperature data would be nice, but I have never seen that done, excpet at the auto manufacurer engine development level, the speed equipment manufacturers usually just use final results or horsepower data, as was done here, so the air temp data is unecessary, since the theory is scientifically sound.

    There are always other unknown variables that can affect the results, but it actually the final (HP) results that most people care about most.
    As counterpoints to what you're saying, you are absolutely correct in that colder air, cold intakes, etc, result in denser air charges and therefore more power. I would however say you should look into what the density difference between 100*F air is and 130*F air, it is not 10% different.

    Radiation is a phenomenon of energy transfer due to light, I don't believe you are actually having this take place within the manifold. Comparing energy transfer from a fire is a bit misleading as you are getting both light emissions as well as conduction/convection. Air inside the manifold would be likely be considered convection, and the higher in the rpm band you go the higher the velocity of the traveling air and therefore the less likely you are to have increased heat transfer (unless you have high turbulence).

    Anyway, I'm pretty much leaving it at this, I don't deny that the use of a thick gasket will lower ultimate manifold temps, and in theory gain power. What I am questioning however is the actual power increase developed, and I feel that the claims here seem highly unlikely. I see external manifold temperature measurements, but I see nothing more than butt dyno's and vendor dyno's otherwise. I wish you guys the best of luck, and if you feel it's a great purchase then good.

  9. #84
    krazienluv10 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    ^^^ agreed, it sounds very similar to a tb bypass i used to do back in the day... we just need actual data...

  10. #85
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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Tons of actual data......what did you miss? Let me know what you want to see.

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    krazienluv10 is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    oic, my mistake, was actually following another thread and didnt notice the data on the first page. quick question, was the test car dynoed, awd or rwd? reason being as im looking at a couple dyno graphs and was just comparing baselines... thanks!

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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    2 wd to date...would like to see the AWD results as there will be more drivetrain parasitic loss.

    The one thing we do is offer to buy back any of our products the customer is not satisfied with so that is a no risk situation. We put our money where our mouth is. No restocking fees or gimmicks.

  13. #88
    Wag-O-Neer is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    2 wd to date...would like to see the AWD results as there will be more drivetrain parasitic loss.

    The one thing we do is offer to buy back any of our products the customer is not satisfied with so that is a no risk situation. We put our money where our mouth is. No restocking fees or gimmicks.
    I'm still working on that AWD dyno for my car. Our issue now is, the Black Ice is already installed, but I'll still be able to show a baseline with just the Black Ice and another with Black Ice + Trifecta tune. And since I have the VMAX throttle body in hand, I'll be able to show a 3rd graph including the TB.

  14. #89
    kingtj is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Yep... and I'm still very interested to see those results! I wanted to dyno my AWD CTS Coupe too, before and after the Trifecta tune I did -- but not really sure who has an AWD capable dyno in the St. Louis, MO area these days?

    I just did some Google searching and found this place in Union, MO that supposedly does: http://www.ettuning.com/

    But never been there before, and wouldn't have time to do this anyway, unless they have Saturday hours....


    Quote Originally Posted by Wag-O-Neer View Post
    I'm still working on that AWD dyno for my car. Our issue now is, the Black Ice is already installed, but I'll still be able to show a baseline with just the Black Ice and another with Black Ice + Trifecta tune. And since I have the VMAX throttle body in hand, I'll be able to show a 3rd graph including the TB.

  15. #90
    Wag-O-Neer is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Quote Originally Posted by kingtj View Post
    Yep... and I'm still very interested to see those results! I wanted to dyno my AWD CTS Coupe too, before and after the Trifecta tune I did -- but not really sure who has an AWD capable dyno in the St. Louis, MO area these days?

    I just did some Google searching and found this place in Union, MO that supposedly does: http://www.ettuning.com/

    But never been there before, and wouldn't have time to do this anyway, unless they have Saturday hours....
    I'm having the same issue. AWD dynos just aren't very plentiful. I called a shop owner yesterday that had one, and he said he wouldn't let me use it, if I was going to do my own tuning. WTF?

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