20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain... - Page 4
Cadillac
 

Cadillac Forums | Help Us Help You | Advertise | Cadillac Parts | Cadillac News | Cadillac Classifieds / (Old System)

Cadillac Technical Archive | Cadillac Dealers | Cadillac Reviews | Cadillac Dealer Reviews | Cadillac Vendors

CadillacForums.com is the premier Cadillac Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 131
Like Tree7Likes
2008-2013 Cadillac CTS Performance Mods Discussion, 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain... in Cadillac CTS Second Generation Forum - 2008-2013; I figured you had none. Call the dyno shop that did the first testing: www.kesatiemotorsports.com The temp differential amounts in ...
  1. #46
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,656

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    I figured you had none.

    Call the dyno shop that did the first testing:

    www.kesatiemotorsports.com

    The temp differential amounts in a denser oxygen content, the more oxygen molecues in a given cylinder fill rate the more fuel can be introduced and the more energy released per explosive event (more power).

    Your a waste of time and energy.

  2. #47
    16g-95gsx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    31
    Posts
    11

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    You're absolutely right, why the hell do you think I quoted density? This is the theoretical BEST gains you could have at 30*F change, 3 to 4 %, that's IT (realize for those of you who don't know we are talking an otherwise unlikely/impossible scenario for a factory setup). This is assuming a perfect air density, and a TRUE 30*F change, not just a temp change measured at the MAF (for the love of god I hope you aren't getting your number from that isolated device). Thanks for the explanation of air density though, considering I posted it up for you to prove how wrong you are....

    As for the previous poster, I would ask you why you feel the engine would be otherwise knocking across the board in a factory configuration?

    You're, not your. Do you want to go into engine tuning theory as well since you're starting to get into heating values and chemical release of energy through combustion? You are a parasite who is sucking on the ignorance of those who would otherwise buy into your crap.

  3. #48
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,656

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Go jump into this thread and spout your nonsense. This was a far more comprehensive test than we were able to do:

    http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ack+Ice-olator

  4. #49
    16g-95gsx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    31
    Posts
    11

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Again, I've already shown you what a theoretical 30*F change will do at absolute best (and I dont believe your 1/4" to 1/2" gasket is actually changing the air charge by 30*F). The fact that you claim such incredible gains is flat out comical

    I'll be honest, show this to anyone who actually works on engines and they will laugh in your face.

  5. #50
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,656

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Hmmmm...so you didnt read my cred's. I build motors day in and day out...

    Here is one of our twin trubo 3.6DI:

    another:

    and another:


    our supercharged 3.6DI:


    porting and modified intake manifolds:



    current DI build:



    turbos being installed:

    and some exotic motors we do:


  6. #51
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,656

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    and continued:
    ported DI heads:






    timing chain replacements on the DI's:


    a little shop shot:




    engine clean room:


    A little feature story on my engine building:
    http://www.vetteweb.com/features/vem...6/viewall.html

  7. #52
    16g-95gsx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    31
    Posts
    11

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    You are doing everything you can do to beat around the facts of what I am stating. You are CLAIMING a 30-34*F temp drop on a NA setup, and I am PROVING to you with hard density numbers that even your CLAIMS would add up to at best 3-4% in an ideal world. However you are spitting out 20whp and 25wtq gains, let alone tremendous are under the curve, that blows physics out of the water. I'm not implying that you are wrong or misleading I am flat out saying you're lieing to these people and anyone with a reasonable amount of experience working with engines would know this.

    I don't care about turbo systems or supercharged systems that you've worked on, that is absolutely not related to what we are even talking about. Care to see systems that I've worked on? We all have plenty of pics of our work but the fact that you show me retardedly unrelated pics like this and use unrelated logic like my post count to in some BS way give you credit is laughable.

    Btw nice work on that oil return like for your turbo system just flapping around under the engine and in direct contact with the exhaust. If you're going to post up pics o make yourself look special at least make ire they don't show shitty craftsmanship in them. Wtf are you getting at with a timing chain replacement pic? Who the hell posts up bragging pics of standard maintenance?

  8. #53
    Wag-O-Neer is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 2010 CTS-4 Wagon Premium 3.6 w/FE2
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    212

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Alright, let's take a breath here.

    16g-95gsx, let me first state that I have no financial or vested interest in the producer or seller of the Vmax Ice-olator, but I do have one installed on my CTS. As a matter of fact, I believe I may have the only one installed on a 3.6DI CTS. The majority of the installs have been on the 3.6DI Camaro, which as we know, shares the same power plant. Now, that out of the way....

    It certainly appears that you're trying to discredit the gains of the intake phenolic spacer. To the point of, in your last post, calling Tracy a liar (1st paragraph, last sentence). Now, unless you've installed this exact same product on your car, dyno tested it, and proven it to NOT show gains, I think it's very inconsiderate what you're doing here. Now, there's certainly nothing wrong with sharing concrete information that you have (not web links and calculations), if it's contrary to what a vendor is selling. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. You're in the non-believer camp, and that's fine. But unless you have proof to the contrary, I think you need to let the potential customers make their own decision.

    Did you happen to read the reviews of this product on the camaro5.com forum? I'm guessing you haven't. My rough estimate is 40 or so satisfied customers, and one more independent test that verifies the claims set forth by this vendor.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer of the placebo affect. We spend money, installed hardware, so it must be faster, right? I get it, that's how the human psyche works. I was in the non-believer camp initially, just like you. But instead of spewing venom, you know what I did? I installed one on my car. Guess what? It makes a noticeable difference. If you read my review written in the very same forum space, you'll see that I did a surface temp laser test, before and after, and the surface temp showed to have decreased by ~35-40F. Unfortunately, the IAT sensor in the car is pre-manifold, so there's no way to see what the affect on IAT was. The other very unfortunate event was the dyno I used, broke. My car is AWD, and the mechanism that adjusts the distance between the rollers, crapped out on us. This doesn't help my argument, I know, but I tell it how it is.

    Did it make 20WHP? I'm not sure, but I can say with zero degree of uncertainty that it made a difference in the overall power delivery of the car. It feels stronger, and it's not placebo. Again, I encourage you to peruse the camaro5 forum, and investigate this seller, and his products. I'd be willing to bet that you won't find even ONE dissatisfied customer, as it pertains to Tracy's customer service and products he's brought to market.


    Have a nice day.

    Another question:

    Are you on any of the Mercedes forums? That username looks awfully familiar to me.
    CarlosZ06 likes this.

  9. #54
    16g-95gsx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    31
    Posts
    11

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    You are correct in that I have gotten progressively more firm in my calling out of his claimed gains. You say that stating weblinks and calculations isn't enough, but that is EXACTLY what we are discussing here, the density difference that air temp changes cause. Now you say that you're measuring your intake manifold through the use of a non contact laser, but without going into how accurate they can be on metallic surfaces, I will state that regardless of what the temperature of the manifold actually is, the likelihood of the air passing through it becoming isothermal to the manifold itself is unlikely. Therefore even if you are measuring a temp change by your method, the likelihood of the air seeing the same temp change is unlikely (complete heresay, but we're talking very short periods of time with very little actually contacting the manifold's inner surfaces. I agree on the AIT measurement from the MAF, I made comment earlier that I hoped his claimed temp drop was not measured by that as it would be entirely irrelevant.

    Now, back to my weblinks and calculation nonsense, why would a 30* air temp change on a NA engine produce a whopping 20whp and 25wtq gain? This is where these actual real world density measurements are important as they prove outright that it's impossible. I firmly believe that people are simply seeing a placebo effect. These phenolic gaskets always pop up in new car markets as they are easy for manufacturers to produce, don't interfere with the factory ECU, and therefore are easy for folks to spend money on and put blind faith that they are gaining power. The fact of the matter is the actual temp change is likely small at best, and this is the first time I have ever seen such absurd power gains claimed (most of these manufacturers will at least claim a modest 8bhp at most). I feel like I'm arguing that the sky is blue, showing him the science of optic refraction and WHY the sky is blue, and he is showing me pictures of planes to explain to me how the sky is not blue. The arguments just don't make sense. When I look at the links all I see are folks local to him, and random forum members who seem to be relatively new themselves. At best I'd say you're seeing a modest temp change (likely not even close to 30*) and you have shifted your powerband slightly to the left due to the increased runner length and subsequent resonance harmonics of the manifold. Realize how much power a 15-25wtq gain is across the board on your otherwise stock cars, it wouldn't be just a "yea I think I feel it".

    Yea I'm a member of the Merc boards, I doubt you've seen me there though as I haven't posted much. I sold a 55k supercharger a few years ago, and that was about the last time I went on there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wag-O-Neer View Post
    Alright, let's take a breath here.

    16g-95gsx, let me first state that I have no financial or vested interest in the producer or seller of the Vmax Ice-olator, but I do have one installed on my CTS. As a matter of fact, I believe I may have the only one installed on a 3.6DI CTS. The majority of the installs have been on the 3.6DI Camaro, which as we know, shares the same power plant. Now, that out of the way....

    It certainly appears that you're trying to discredit the gains of the intake phenolic spacer. To the point of, in your last post, calling Tracy a liar (1st paragraph, last sentence). Now, unless you've installed this exact same product on your car, dyno tested it, and proven it to NOT show gains, I think it's very inconsiderate what you're doing here. Now, there's certainly nothing wrong with sharing concrete information that you have (not web links and calculations), if it's contrary to what a vendor is selling. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. You're in the non-believer camp, and that's fine. But unless you have proof to the contrary, I think you need to let the potential customers make their own decision.

    Did you happen to read the reviews of this product on the camaro5.com forum? I'm guessing you haven't. My rough estimate is 40 or so satisfied customers, and one more independent test that verifies the claims set forth by this vendor.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm a big believer of the placebo affect. We spend money, installed hardware, so it must be faster, right? I get it, that's how the human psyche works. I was in the non-believer camp initially, just like you. But instead of spewing venom, you know what I did? I installed one on my car. Guess what? It makes a noticeable difference. If you read my review written in the very same forum space, you'll see that I did a surface temp laser test, before and after, and the surface temp showed to have decreased by ~35-40F. Unfortunately, the IAT sensor in the car is pre-manifold, so there's no way to see what the affect on IAT was. The other very unfortunate event was they dyno I used, broke. My car is AWD, and the mechanism that adjusts the distance between the rollers, crapped out on us. This doesn't help my argument, I know, but I tell it how it is.

    Did it make 20WHP? I'm not sure, but I can say with zero degree of uncertainty that it made a difference in the overall power delivery of the car. It feels stronger, and it's not placebo. Again, I encourage you to peruse the camaro5 forum, and investigate this seller, and his products. I'd be willing to bet that you won't find even ONE dissatisfied customer, as it pertains to Tracy's customer service and products he's brought to market.


    Have a nice day.

    Another question:

    Are you on any of the Mercedes forums? That username looks awfully familiar to me.

  10. #55
    Wag-O-Neer is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Automobile(s): 2010 CTS-4 Wagon Premium 3.6 w/FE2
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    212

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Quote Originally Posted by 16g-95gsx View Post
    You are correct in that I have gotten progressively more firm in my calling out of his claimed gains. You say that stating weblinks and calculations isn't enough, but that is EXACTLY what we are discussing here, the density difference that air temp changes cause. Now you say that you're measuring your intake manifold through the use of a non contact laser, but without going into how accurate they can be on metallic surfaces, I will state that regardless of what the temperature of the manifold actually is, the likelihood of the air passing through it becoming isothermal to the manifold itself is unlikely. Therefore even if you are measuring a temp change by your method, the likelihood of the air seeing the same temp change is unlikely (complete heresay, but we're talking very short periods of time with very little actually contacting the manifold's inner surfaces. I agree on the AIT measurement from the MAF, I made comment earlier that I hoped his claimed temp drop was not measured by that as it would be entirely irrelevant.

    Now, back to my weblinks and calculation nonsense, why would a 30* air temp change on a NA engine produce a whopping 20whp and 25wtq gain? This is where these actual real world density measurements are important as they prove outright that it's impossible. I firmly believe that people are simply seeing a placebo effect. These phenolic gaskets always pop up in new car markets as they are easy for manufacturers to produce, don't interfere with the factory ECU, and therefore are easy for folks to spend money on and put blind faith that they are gaining power. The fact of the matter is the actual temp change is likely small at best, and this is the first time I have ever seen such absurd power gains claimed (most of these manufacturers will at least claim a modest 8bhp at most). I feel like I'm arguing that the sky is blue, showing him the science of optic refraction and WHY the sky is blue, and he is showing me pictures of planes to explain to me how the sky is not blue. The arguments just don't make sense. When I look at the links all I see are folks local to him, and random forum members who seem to be relatively new themselves. At best I'd say you're seeing a modest temp change (likely not even close to 30*) and you have shifted your powerband slightly to the left due to the increased runner length and subsequent resonance harmonics of the manifold. Realize how much power a 15-25wtq gain is across the board on your otherwise stock cars, it wouldn't be just a "yea I think I feel it".

    Yea I'm a member of the Merc boards, I doubt you've seen me there though as I haven't posted much. I sold a 55k supercharger a few years ago, and that was about the last time I went on there.

    Yes or No: Do you believe that the vendor here, and the other independent shop that showed gains on a dyno, are both fabricating the gains for the sole purpose of selling product?

    What would you say, if I were to show you yet a 3rd dyno sheet, mine, that showed gains?

    BTW, I do remember from MBWorld. You know who I am over there.

  11. #56
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,656

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    The dyno numbers, graphs, and details on how all testing was performed are totally separate from the testing we did. This is a direct competitor of mine, not a friend or customer.

    Please take the time to go read the thread and question him on how he arrived with even higher (tq) gains than we did:

    http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ack+Ice-olator

  12. #57
    16g-95gsx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    31
    Posts
    11

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wag-O-Neer View Post
    Yes or No: Do you believe that the vendor here, and the other independent shop that showed gains on a dyno, are both fabricating the gains for the sole purpose of selling product?

    What would you say, if I were to show you yet a 3rd dyno sheet, mine, that showed gains?

    BTW, I do remember from MBWorld. You know who I am over there.
    I think you know where I stand with your first question.

    I'd love to see your dyno if you have one, as well as the specific conditions it was performed in.

    What was your name on the Merc boards? I honestly posted only a few times there and it was mainly to sell a few 55k parts that I had?

  13. #58
    WRXtranceformed is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    135

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    16G, instead of calling out this guy on a decent product, you need to call out the guys thinking that removing a 8" intake silencer is going to cause the engine to pull timing :P

  14. #59
    16g-95gsx is offline Cadillac Owners Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    31
    Posts
    11

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    Quote Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
    The dyno numbers, graphs, and details on how all testing was performed are totally separate from the testing we did. This is a direct competitor of mine, not a friend or customer.

    Please take the time to go read the thread and question him on how he arrived with even higher (tq) gains than we did:

    http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ack+Ice-olator
    I've read through the thread, it doesn't change my comments about a simple 20-30*F temp change causing a full 10+% change in torque. It just doesn't work like that.

    ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by WRXtranceformed View Post
    16G, instead of calling out this guy on a decent product, you need to call out the guys thinking that removing a 8" intake silencer is going to cause the engine to pull timing :P
    No idea about the intake silencer, I am more interested in vendors selling products like a gasket for 150+ bucks, and claiming gains that just aren't possible. The people dyno'ing these things are the same folks selling them.

  15. #60
    SC2150's Avatar
    SC2150 is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
    Automobile(s): CTS
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Palmetto, FL
    Age
    58
    Posts
    1,656

    Re: 20 rwhp & 25 rwtq bolt on gain...

    It is far from a gasket...it is a 9.75mm high temp insulating material....but if your white knight cause is to attack verified data on a product, are you afriad to post in Mike Norris's thread and question the same? I dont think you have the balls.

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Bookmarks

Cadillac Posting Rules

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Read about Lincoln | Buick | Kia Forte Forum
Need products for your Cadillac? Check out your options at the links below:

custom floor mats | Cadillac Chrome and Black Chrome Wheels | window tinting