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2008-2013 Cadillac CTS Performance Mods Discussion, Is the D3 intake worth it? in Cadillac CTS Second Generation Forum - 2008-2013; I think it is apparent someone is trying to stir the pot. We have dyno proven the air intake several ...
  1. #16
    Dr. Design is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    I think it is apparent someone is trying to stir the pot. We have dyno proven the air intake several times on different days, times, conditions, and even CTS4 vs. CTS. They all produced the same power. So either the placebo effect is so strong it alters the dyno results to all read the same gains, or the intakes actually do what we have already proven... ADD POWER.

    As for the power under the curve, all you have to do is look at the dyno sheet and see where the power is.

    Thanks,

    Dr. Design
    D3 Cadillac

    Quote Originally Posted by scoutpilot View Post
    Absolutely agreed. Scarcity power is an amazing thing. $450 for an $80 filter and $25 worth of mandrel-bent tubing.

    As for Dr. Design's claims, I'll wait to see some independent dyno pulls by a non-partisan tester. So far all we have is the company itself saying "we added X and got result Y." Remember, the folks who made the Tornado device that went into your intake in order to create a "vortex of air" had dyno numbers to back up their claims too.

    Doc, you know as well as anyone that just as sure as there's always been an aftermarket, there's always been the customer who is willing to believe that his mod worked. From Joe Dirt with his Flowmasters and Cherry Bombs to the Honda kid with his fart can exhaust, the majority of people will talk themselves into believing that their purchase was a good one. Hence, the "seat of the pants" meter.

    Until someone puts one of these on and does a real dyno pull under identical conditions, I'll remain suspicious of the claims.

    The other question is how much is lost under the curve during normal driving conditions, say at half throttle? Peak HP is worthless 99% of the time.

  2. #17
    scoutpilot is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Design View Post
    As for the power under the curve, all you have to do is look at the dyno sheet and see where the power is.
    Apparently someone thinks that skepticism about a manufacturer's claims about his own product is "pot stirring." I apologize for not bowing at your feet and thanking you for selling us a product at a hefty mark-up. How ungrateful of me!

    If you have all those dyno runs, surely you could post all those different charts, including some for a non-DI motor?

    As for the power under the curve, surely you're not suggesting that we all drive around at wide open throttle. Your dyno runs show one condition: wide open. What about half throttle? Does your intake take advantage of rebound pulses to maximize power under those conditions? Or is it only tuned for wide-open throttle gains? Where's THAT curve?
    laxman07 and laxman07 like this.

  3. #18
    WNBAMiamiSol is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Did you notice the dissenters don't even have the car listed they own?
    My guess is they don't have either an '08 or '09 CTS and have too much time on their hands.

  4. #19
    scoutpilot is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by WNBAMiamiSol View Post
    Did you notice the dissenters don't even have the car listed they own?
    My guess is they don't have either an '08 or '09 CTS and have too much time on their hands.
    That's right, you got me. I'm sure you couldn't find any other threads on here where we talked about our CTS's.

    Don't be butthurt because you bought an intake. It's your money, and if you're happy then enjoy that fact. Why are you so wrapped up about people believing in the D3 CAI (minus the C)? Because you've installed a lot of K&Ns?

    Like I said, I have no proof that it doesn't work. But the only proof we've seen so far is a couple of dyno graphs posted by D3 that may or may not reflect the effect of the part itself, and some "SOTP" claims.

    Skeptical people get taken a lot less often. A little honest skepticism never hurt anyone. Most of all, I'm skeptical about the price.

  5. #20
    scoutpilot is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by WNBAMiamiSol View Post
    Did you notice the dissenters don't even have the car listed they own?
    My guess is they don't have either an '08 or '09 CTS and have too much time on their hands.
    PS - You don't have your age listed. By your logic, you probably don't have a birthday!!!

  6. #21
    Dr. Design is offline Cadillac Owners Connoisseur
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Not really. The fact is we did do our dyno testing, street testing, and offered the vehicle to Road & Track Magazine for their testing. Not to mention the customer support, of the products they purchased for THEIR vehicles, has already been documented. I think we have done a pretty good job of proving our product delivers as promises. Next you are going to ask us to do wind tunnel testing and still keep the MSRP under $300 shipped.

    If there is a reasonable test that you would like seen or proven, I would be more than happy to try and provide that for you. You certainly don't have to believe us because we say you should or because we have provided marketing material. Let's be reasonable with some of your requests. We dont have dyno print outs of 25% throttle runs. This is where an experienced driver and engineer testing on the streets (with their test equipment) and on the test track earn their keep! We dont have dyno results of a non DI motor as we didnt have one available at the time of testing.

    Thank you,

    Dr. Design
    D3 Cadillac



    Quote Originally Posted by scoutpilot View Post
    Apparently someone thinks that skepticism about a manufacturer's claims about his own product is "pot stirring." I apologize for not bowing at your feet and thanking you for selling us a product at a hefty mark-up. How ungrateful of me!

    If you have all those dyno runs, surely you could post all those different charts, including some for a non-DI motor?

    As for the power under the curve, surely you're not suggesting that we all drive around at wide open throttle. Your dyno runs show one condition: wide open. What about half throttle? Does your intake take advantage of rebound pulses to maximize power under those conditions? Or is it only tuned for wide-open throttle gains? Where's THAT curve?

  7. #22
    scoutpilot is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Design View Post
    Not really. The fact is we did do our dyno testing, street testing, and offered the vehicle to Road & Track Magazine for their testing. Not to mention the customer support, of the products they purchased for THEIR vehicles, has already been documented. I think we have done a pretty good job of proving our product delivers as promises. Next you are going to ask us to do wind tunnel testing and still keep the MSRP under $300 shipped.

    If there is a reasonable test that you would like seen or proven, I would be more than happy to try and provide that for you. You certainly don't have to believe us because we say you should or because we have provided marketing material. Let's be reasonable with some of your requests. We dont have dyno print outs of 25% throttle runs. This is where an experienced driver and engineer testing on the streets (with their test equipment) and on the test track earn their keep! We dont have dyno results of a non DI motor as we didnt have one available at the time of testing.

    Thank you,

    Dr. Design
    D3 Cadillac
    I appreciate your candor. I understand you guys have done a lot of testing. You wouldn't be in business if you didn't. Nonetheless, (though you probably posted it as a sarcastic example) I think that $300 is a bit more reasonable for a 13 rwhp gain. $450 is pretty tough for a lot of people to swallow in these times, considering you could buy a whole new set of FE2 shocks for that same amount of money.

    My real concern from a design aspect is the efficiency of the system at varying throttle settings. Having suffered through a few fluids courses at pretty well-known engineering joint, I wonder how the different frequencies of helmholz pulses would affect the intake charge. I don't know if the CTS stock intake has internal baffles or pulse chambers in it, but they're getting more common. Without those, you can lose a lot of power at smaller throttle settings in the quest for a higher peak HP number.

    But what do I know. I don't even own a CTS

  8. #23
    OneLapCoastie is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by scoutpilot View Post
    I appreciate your candor. I understand you guys have done a lot of testing. You wouldn't be in business if you didn't. Nonetheless, (though you probably posted it as a sarcastic example) I think that $300 is a bit more reasonable for a 13 rwhp gain. $450 is pretty tough for a lot of people to swallow in these times, considering you could buy a whole new set of FE2 shocks for that same amount of money.

    My real concern from a design aspect is the efficiency of the system at varying throttle settings. Having suffered through a few fluids courses at pretty well-known engineering joint, I wonder how the different frequencies of helmholz pulses would affect the intake charge. I don't know if the CTS stock intake has internal baffles or pulse chambers in it, but they're getting more common. Without those, you can lose a lot of power at smaller throttle settings in the quest for a higher peak HP number.

    But what do I know. I don't even own a CTS

    For goodness sake don't buy one then! Your message was lost in your arrogance a long time ago. I know its not the focus of the "change" we are undergoing now but at least for the near term we are still a capitalistic country and D3 took the risk in developing the product and they have every right to demand whatever the market will bear.

    For those of us that have actually driven the car with the intake installed, we all have pretty much universally praised the performance and the noticeable power increase under normal driving conditions. You don't have to believe any of us, but at this point we have more "data" to validate D3's claims than you have to refute them.

  9. #24
    scoutpilot is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

    And here I thought the subject of this thread was whether it was worth $450. The title must have misled me...

    Thanks for the ad hoc economics lesson though. You've added a lot to the discussion.

  10. #25
    trukk's Avatar
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by scoutpilot
    Absolutely agreed. Scarcity power is an amazing thing. $450 for an $80 filter and $25 worth of mandrel-bent tubing.
    You are assuming that they even madrel bend their tubes. I'd be willing to bet some (all?) of their stuff is crimp bent mild steel, that is going to rust up on the inside from condensation. It won't on the outside though, cuz it has that awesome Krinkle Koat.

    Quote Originally Posted by scoutpilot View Post
    <snip>I appreciate your candor. I understand you guys have done a lot of testing.</snip>
    Again with the assumption that they've done much if any 'testing'. How much testing do you think they did with their 'resistor in a box' maf translator that they sell for $800?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Design
    <snip> Not really. The fact is we did do our dyno testing, street testing, and offered the vehicle to Road & Track Magazine for their testing. </snip>
    You forgot to mention that the testing R&T did made you car sound very slow, and you had to back pedal with excuses regarding why it wasn't fast.




    DEAR CTS crowd,

    I'm just a guy on the internet. As D3 will tell you (i'm sure in multiple PM's), don't believe me. Do your own homework, then make a decision on your own. Buy a rusted metal heatsink with a generic K&N slaped on the end for $450 if you choose.

    Yes I am critical of D3. Watch their response, then decide. See if they address any of the things I brought up here, or just tell me to EFF off.

    -Chris
    2005 CTS-V:No Roof|T2+Eibachs|Corsa|UUC:Shifter, 2pc rotors, B-Lines, Motor/Tran Mounts, Diff Bushings|LPE CAI|FFV IntakeTube|Hotchkis Sways|Kooks 1.75 Coated LTs+cats|KARS III |Mamofied Fast90 + NW90|224/228 111+0 XFI/XE-R .609/.588+Dual Springs|ATI 25% UD Pulley|YT 1.7" UltraLites|Melling HiFlow OP|Cloyes Hex Adjust Timing Set|Lucas 42# Flow Matched Injectors|Katech LS9X Twin-Disk ClutchMustang Dyno Tuned (SAE): 412rwhp / 380 rwtq
    2012 CTS-V:No Roof|Wagon|M6|Recaros|Bone stock (for now)

  11. #26
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by trukk View Post
    You are assuming that they even madrel bend their tubes. I'd be willing to bet some (all?) of their stuff is crimp bent mild steel, that is going to rust up on the inside from condensation. It won't on the outside though, cuz it has that awesome Krinkle Koat.



    Again with the assumption that they've done much if any 'testing'. How much testing do you think they did with their 'resistor in a box' maf translator that they sell for $800?



    You forgot to mention that the testing R&T did made you car sound very slow, and you had to back pedal with excuses regarding why it wasn't fast.




    DEAR CTS crowd,

    I'm just a guy on the internet. As D3 will tell you (i'm sure in multiple PM's), don't believe me. Do your own homework, then make a decision on your own. Buy a rusted metal heatsink with a generic K&N slaped on the end for $450 if you choose.

    Yes I am critical of D3. Watch their response, then decide. See if they address any of the things I brought up here, or just tell me to EFF off.

    -Chris

    Dear trukk in a box,

    Welcome to yet another bashing of D3, I'm shocked you didn't chime in earlier. But you're here now so let the games begin.

    All of our CTS pipes are mandrel bent aluminum. they are finished in a high quality powder coat or have been chromed.

    We originally tested the system without the heat sheild to see what kind of temps we would get, and sure enough we were seeing around 150-160 deg f. through the AIT sensor, we added the heat sheild and temps dropped to 70-80 deg. f. depending on ambient(wich was 68 deg. or more at that time of year)

    The first system had a pipe that ran down to the lower portion of bumper area just above the splash sheild, we decided not to go that route because the MAF sensor reading were scewed causing a lean condition. On top of that in order to run a pipe down there the horn assembly had to be relocated, we were looking for an easy installation for your average customer so we didn't want to overcomplicate it.

    Each variation has had multiple dyno runs as well as multiple road test and snap shots to keep driveability in check.

    But you're right we slapped a 20 dollar pipe with a filter, and then computer generated dyno sheets to take advantage of people.

    You need to read the road and track article on our CTS again, they were able to prove gains stock vs ours. they tested a stock cts the same day they tested ours. Thats the best way to prove measurable gains IMO.

    The XLR-V article by motortrend was not our best foot forward, I will be the first to say that. We had a modded V with not so sticky tires on it. Next time we do something like that we will put a better compound tire on it. but i'm sure we will get bashed for that too.



    If this intake is crap then why is it that numerous customers have chimed in saying how much they like it. we appreciate our customers, cause without them we wouldn't be able to do these things that we are so passionate about. Most of us here are gear heads, and we strive to bring a good quality product to our customers.

    You make a lot of assumptions for never having purchased something from us, but I know it easy and fun jumping on the "I hate D3" band wagon.

  12. #27
    yatesd's Avatar
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Scoutpilot,

    I hope you contribute to this forum because you sure are taking quite a bit of your time to bash one of the most respected forum sponsers. Since I have been participating on this forum D3 has been a consistent and pleasant contributor and as far as I know one of the few mod companies focused on Cadillac.

    In regards to value...we can all have different opinions on this issue. Certainly a tube with a filter on it may do the same thing (I've been eyeing up a cardboard box out in my garage). However, it would not be done in a way that reflects style and build quality most Cadillac owners appreciate. I can tell you this...if I was going to add a CAI, it would be the D3 version. I really appreciate the fact that this kit was dyno tested, tested in a major car magazine, and almost everyone that actually owns the kit seems happy with the performance and quality.


    So....if you really think this custom designed and built kit being sold in low volumes is a rip off then I will patiently wait to see your $99 version.

  13. #28
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    Quote Originally Posted by scoutpilot View Post
    Most of all, I'm skeptical about the price.


    so then are you basically saying that you would put one on your car if the price was right?


    oh and btw- its helmholtz

  14. #29
    yatesd's Avatar
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    BTW, my younger brother bought a Scion and ordered the cold air intake from the factory. It cost $349, and is much more generic looking. All this on a sub $20K car.

  15. #30
    OneLapCoastie is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Is the D3 intake worth it?

    [QUOTE=scoutpilot;1795995]

    And here I thought the subject of this thread was whether it was worth $450. The title must have misled me...

    QUOTE]

    You were not misled; you just chose to ignore your irrelevance. Your argument is based on zero experience with the subject product so you're essentially like a movie critic that never saw the movie -- completely irrelevant, but compelled to bloviate anyway.

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