Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS? - Page 7
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2008-2013 Cadillac CTS General Discussion Discussion, Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS? in Cadillac CTS Second Generation Forum - 2008-2013; Amen!...
  1. #91
    Tbbt is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    Amen!

  2. #92
    Cougar281 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    Quote Originally Posted by RippyPartsDept View Post
    more often there's even less consumption but it would leave the owner approx 2 quarts low if they go by the oil life monitor and never check the dipstick
    over time, that will show as timing chain stretch as the tensioners have to work extra to keep the chain tight when low on oil
    What exactly do you mean by that? The tensioners can't exert any more force on the chain than they do under normal circumstances as provided by the oil pressure. The only time they can exert less force is if there is no oil pressure. If they're anything like Ford modular V8 tensioners, they have a ratchet in them to prevent them from collapsing entirely when there is no oil pressure. The only times you will not have oil pressure would be when you're OUT of oil, you're low enough that when the engine starts it sucks all the oil out of the oil pan or when the engine is off (or the first few seconds after startup possibly).

    One quart, probably even two, will not make any difference with regards to the oil pumps ability to pick up oil and send it through the engine. Now, if the timing chains are sitting in the oil and that's their primary lubrication, then it definitely can have an effect, but everyone always says that LOW oil causes timing chain stretch as if the oil pickup is high in the oil pan so that when 2 quarts low it can't pick up oil.

    Oil is pumped from the bottom of the oil pan and then distributed through the engine by way of oil passages to key locations - Crank bearings, cam bearings, tensioners, etc. One would expect somewhere in that mix would be one or more orifices that spray oil on the timing chains. Generally speaking, you DON'T want anything sitting in the oil. The crank hitting the oil, for example, will aerate the oil, making it froth up, which is bad.

    I can definitely see how running it with NO oil could do it (and other problems to boot), but as I said, unless the chains actually run through the oil in the pan as their source of lubrication, I fail to see how LOW oil can in any way contribute to timing chain stretch. IF GM is saying that low oil is causing timing chain stretch, it sounds to me like GM is trying to pass the buck.
    99flhr likes this.

  3. #93
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    You may be right... I might have mixed up the intake and exhaust valve adjusters that work extra hard when you're low on oil

    the hole that the oil sprays on the chain gets sludged up when you run low on oil consistently and won't lube the chain and that's how it gets stretched

    the tensioners wear out because the chain has stretched
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  4. #94
    Mustang Matt is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar281 View Post
    What exactly do you mean by that? The tensioners can't exert any more force on the chain than they do under normal circumstances as provided by the oil pressure. The only time they can exert less force is if there is no oil pressure. If they're anything like Ford modular V8 tensioners, they have a ratchet in them to prevent them from collapsing entirely when there is no oil pressure. The only times you will not have oil pressure would be when you're OUT of oil, you're low enough that when the engine starts it sucks all the oil out of the oil pan or when the engine is off (or the first few seconds after startup possibly).

    One quart, probably even two, will not make any difference with regards to the oil pumps ability to pick up oil and send it through the engine. Now, if the timing chains are sitting in the oil and that's their primary lubrication, then it definitely can have an effect, but everyone always says that LOW oil causes timing chain stretch as if the oil pickup is high in the oil pan so that when 2 quarts low it can't pick up oil.

    Oil is pumped from the bottom of the oil pan and then distributed through the engine by way of oil passages to key locations - Crank bearings, cam bearings, tensioners, etc. One would expect somewhere in that mix would be one or more orifices that spray oil on the timing chains. Generally speaking, you DON'T want anything sitting in the oil. The crank hitting the oil, for example, will aerate the oil, making it froth up, which is bad.

    I can definitely see how running it with NO oil could do it (and other problems to boot), but as I said, unless the chains actually run through the oil in the pan as their source of lubrication, I fail to see how LOW oil can in any way contribute to timing chain stretch. IF GM is saying that low oil is causing timing chain stretch, it sounds to me like GM is trying to pass the buck.
    100% agree. I have yet to see a valid explanation of why the chains and tensioners fail under normal operating conditions when the car has oil. I can say from first hand experience that they for sure they don't sit in the oil, the oil is pumped to them. If the oil pump is failing to pump to the chains, I'd expect the bearings and other parts to wear out too. This isn't the case from any examples I've heard of. In fact, I'd almost expect low oil to ruin bearings before timing chains.

    My guess is that the chains are not durable enough for the application. That being said, I can't figure out why it affects some cars and not others. Maybe different batches of chains?

  5. #95
    Cougar281 is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    Quote Originally Posted by RippyPartsDept View Post
    You may be right... I might have mixed up the intake and exhaust valve adjusters that work extra hard when you're low on oil

    the hole that the oil sprays on the chain gets sludged up when you run low on oil consistently and won't lube the chain and that's how it gets stretched

    the tensioners wear out because the chain has stretched
    Running low on oil doesn't cause sludge or varnish - junk oil does.

    The 4.6L DOHC motor I have on a stand for my Cougar has less than 75k on it and the varnish and sludge buildup in the motor is unreal. Based on the filter that was on the motor when I got it, I believe they were using Valvoline oil of some kind. Probably whatever bargain basement oil the drive through places had. They may have used whatever drive through joint was closest when it needed an oil change.

    The motor that's IN the Cougar now is out of a 2002 Explorer and at this point has probably 40-50k on it. It was virtually new when I got it and was SPOTLESS inside. I've run Mobil1 in it since the day I put it in the car and from the oil fill, there is no varnish noticeable at all on the head. The only discoloration present is from the film of oil, Which with a quick hosedown, it would look like new.

    I can't see how, if people are using Mobil1 as recommended, they would be getting sludge/varnish buildup no matter what the circumstances. Now if they are using Autozone Dino oil, I can see that happening. I still think something else is going on, that they may not even be telling anyone at the dealership level.

  6. #96
    Mustang Matt is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cougar281 View Post
    Running low on oil doesn't cause sludge or varnish - junk oil does.

    The 4.6L DOHC motor I have on a stand for my Cougar has less than 75k on it and the varnish and sludge buildup in the motor is unreal. Based on the filter that was on the motor when I got it, I believe they were using Valvoline oil of some kind. Probably whatever bargain basement oil the drive through places had. They may have used whatever drive through joint was closest when it needed an oil change.

    The motor that's IN the Cougar now is out of a 2002 Explorer and at this point has probably 40-50k on it. It was virtually new when I got it and was SPOTLESS inside. I've run Mobil1 in it since the day I put it in the car and from the oil fill, there is no varnish noticeable at all on the head. The only discoloration present is from the film of oil, Which with a quick hosedown, it would look like new.

    I can't see how, if people are using Mobil1 as recommended, they would be getting sludge/varnish buildup no matter what the circumstances. Now if they are using Autozone Dino oil, I can see that happening. I still think something else is going on, that they may not even be telling anyone at the dealership level.
    I saw almost no sludge or varnish with the timing cover off for mine with 114k. I've always used Mobil1 5w-30. There has to be a design flaw somewhere. If they'd be public about it, maybe the aftermarket could fix it.

  7. #97
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    when you run low on oil your good mobil1 oil becomes junk oil very quickly
    and the oil passage that sprays on the chain is about the size of the tip of one the tine of your average dinner fork..

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  8. #98
    Mustang Matt is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    But the bearings and every other oiled part in the engine has no issues?

  9. #99
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustang Matt View Post
    I've always used Mobil1 5w-30. There has to be a design flaw somewhere.
    why does there have to be a design flaw? not all of them are failing ... wouldn't a manufacturing defect/issue be more likely?
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  10. #100
    Mustang Matt is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    Do we have hard numbers on how many have failed (not just the CTS, but all GM 3.6L motors)? A manufacturing defect seems unlikely due to the fact that it happens across so many years. (Assuming they would fix such a defect once discovered.) I know they changed the design at least once, that's why my car wasn't covered by the special coverage adjustment.

  11. #101
    RippyPartsDept's Avatar
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    well there's a lot of factors involved not just any possible defect but also maintenance and there's just no way to isolate all those factors to say for sure
    (unless you're GM ... and how likely do you think it realistically is that GM will come forward with their internal findings on this matter?)

    they've already issued the special coverage and extended the warranties ... i think they've moved on and are not looking back
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  12. #102
    Mustang Matt is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    I would move on too if I stopped seeing posts spreading b.s. about low oil. /rib /rib.

    Seriously though, while some cars may have had low oil, this doesn't really account for the cars with extremely low mileage. I've seen anecdotal reports as low as 4000 miles and several below 24,000.

    You're going by the common sense knowledge that if you keep good oil and the correct amount of it in an engine you won't have problems. I too always believed this until I bought a car powered by a GM 3.6L!

    I'm still hopeful they'll extend the special coverage to cover my car eventually. Maybe it will never happen who knows. One thing is for sure, I won't have the car long enough to deal with this problem a 2nd time.

    I think the only way to get GM to open up about it would be a class action lawsuit. To win a class action lawsuit though, you'd need strong evidence proving there is a design flaw.

    Or NHTSA could investigate them. They're investigating Saturn timing chain problems: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/pr...h&summary=true

  13. #103
    RippyPartsDept's Avatar
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    i'm not going by any common sense knowledge ... i'm just going by what i have seen over time and what i've been told by others who have observed this

    any car can have problems at low mileages ... it happens all the time across all makes and models

    and anecdotal evidence doesn't really mean much as you probably know but every single one we've seen has had signs of low or no oil
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  14. #104
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    To back up what Chris just said, my car had an utter and complete transmission failure at 50,000 miles. Sure, it's not an engine, but for "no" (logical) reason it completely failed. My non-technical seat of the pants outside observer look at the timing chain issue makes me believe it is a manufacturing defect from the vendor. No technical data to support that.

    ----------

    BTW, Chris, are Saabs still for sale (in your signature)?

  15. #105
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    Re: Does #11340C special coverage adjustment cover every 2009 3.6L CTS?

    Like I said before the 3.6 isn't the only GM engine to have this problem their 2.0, 2.2 & 2.4 4 cylinder ecotecs used to develop the same problem.
    99flhr likes this.

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