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2008-2013 Cadillac CTS General Discussion Discussion, Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof in Cadillac CTS Second Generation Forum - 2008-2013; Since I'm no engineer here is the problem: I get in the car and drive it I hear... creeeak creak... ...
  1. #16
    Merge's Avatar
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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Since I'm no engineer here is the problem:
    I get in the car and drive it I hear... creeeak creak... squeek squeek!!!
    Go over a little stone I hear... creeeak creak... squeek squekl!!!
    Make a left turn I hear... creeeak creak... squeek squeek!!!
    Make a right urn I hear... creeeak creak... squeek squeek!!!
    You get the picture...

    FIX IT NOOBS!!! How do they miss something like that?????????

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    WillK is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    See, they're very hard to adjust properly. No noise before the repair, but as soon as they remove the glass for a repair, a noise comes along (improperly adjusted).

    I think replacement seals and gutter, plus a good technician fixing it would resolve 95% of wind noises (quite a few rattles too).

    Water leaks, squeaks and rattles from the sunroof are a whole 'nother story though. Don't get started.

    What kind of engineer are you?
    My particular responsibilities are for the management and coordination of testing. When issues arise during testing I have a role in the process of resolving those issues, and I can steer design changes by providing data, but I do not in my present role have direct control over design changes. Ultimately, that control really resides with the supplier while engineers at the OEM have a role as approving design changes. (The nature of where responsibilities lie between OEM and supplier can be different depending the system)

    I also want to re-iterate that the program which has prompted me to look into this is a new program for a model year 2013 vehicle, but some of the new design is similar enough to the second generation CTS sunroof that waranty performance is part of the design background being considered.

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Merge,
    What year make and model of Cadillac do you have?
    Breanne
    Cadillac Customer Service

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Quote Originally Posted by Merge View Post
    FIX IT NOOBS!!! How do they miss something like that?????????
    I want to point out that in my capcity here, I don't officially represent GM or anybody other than myself, and as such I apologize in advance that some things I can't say. This question, for example, would be one where even if I had an answer I wouldn't be able to say. In a previous job, we had found that there is a Godfather quote for almost every engineering/customer-supplier relations situation. In this case I would offer this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5m4jpUyb-g

    The point being, because Sonny made it known that there was an internal family disagreement in a meeting in front of Sollozzo, Sollozzo felt the time was right to make a move to try to knock off Don Corlione.

    With that said, I am definitely a noob. I'm actually new to GM and most of my prior career has been as an engineer at suppliers. I was not part of this sunroof program when it was under development or being launched for model year 2008.

    Here's where my present role comes in, speaking hypothetically. Assuming that everything that was tested says that the design was good, but a problem presents itself anyway, I would look at the test methods employed and try to devise something which would recreate those conditions. In particular, a problem with wind noise would usually be seen in testing involving the driving of a vehicle. I would want to devise testing that can create the same conditions without a vehicle because by the time a vehicle test takes place it might be too late to fix the problem with a design change.

    On the other hand, if a problem was severe enough even though it was at vehicle testing, I can (in theory) delay launch until a fix is in place.

  5. #20
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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Quote Originally Posted by cadillac cust svc View Post
    merge,
    what year make and model of cadillac do you have?
    Breanne
    cadillac customer service
    09 cts4

  6. #21
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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    I'm also an engineer with a fair bit of experience in the auto industry, previously with a tier one supplier doing steering and suspension design. I currently own a '11 CTS Coupe - not a single sound out of the sunroof (I have whistling from the drivers window, but that is another problem). This design is obviously different as it is only a single panel and merely tilts. My previous car was a 2008 CTS sedan with a September 2007 build date. The noise started about 6 months into ownership and had it back to the dealer a couple times for adjustment. I got in the habit of keeping the proper size torx bit and nut driver so I could make adjustments if I was on the road and got tired of holding the center support up. I got pretty good at making adjustments which generally worked best if the glass panels were slightly below the sheet metal - must have been a seal that was losing its rebound. Eventually, I could no longer keep it adjusted properly (nor could the dealer) and a new center support was available. The dealer replaced the center support and the seals and when I got on the highway 10 minutes later is was worse than ever. The tech replacing the hardware didn't know anything about proper adjustment. After another visit they got it right. Eventually, it too started making noise and my constant adjustments were able to keep it quiet. I think part of the problem is that the rear panel needs to be rigidly affixed to the roof without adjustment so that it becomes part of the roof. Then the front panel would merely need to be adjusted with respect to the rear panel and the sheet metal. Another suggestion would be to make the adjustment such that turning a screw would raise / lower the panel so that a pair of techs (one driving, of course) could make the adjustment on the highway. It would need to be checked for leaks when finished. I'm not sure if there is a procedure in place for the techs, but it would help as my experience on this forum is that it took many tries for many cars to get it right. Welcome!
    MoFex, MoFex, Delta and 1 others like this.

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    louiefl99

    great post! It was and is my experience as well. I believe the problem is the seal. At least it was on '08 model. I just applied Zymol rubber conditioner to the seal. It will be interesting to see if it helps.

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    CTS coupe is indeed a different roof. In fact, the CTS sedan sunroof configuration is one of the less common configuration, it seems to be that among 2 panel sunroof configuration it is more common to have the openning where the movable glass panel goes over the top of the other panel as it does on SRX, CTS wagon and Buick LaCross.

    Where the design challenge comes into play with the CTS sedan is that the seal on the moving glass panel has to move past either a fixed glass panel or the roof sheetemetal, and this motion takes place in both directions. For a vent only configuration such as CTS coupe or a configuration where the open position moves the moving glass panel over top of the fixed glass panel, you can provide an edge flange and a bottom flange for the seal to seat against and this is a means of managing design variation. You can't do that with a configuration like the CTS sedan.

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Quote Originally Posted by tonyfort View Post
    No, unfortunately I'm in North Carolina. Anyone down here you could have look at it for you? If not I can probably take a few photos if you'd like; PM me if you are interested.
    Unfortunately I can't PM yet. Wish I could.

    I've been involved with working through dealers for assessing issues remotely, but because I'm working on a future program rather than current production I'd have to do some searching for the appropriate contacts.

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Megathumper,
    I apologize for your frustrations. When you purchased this vehicle how many miles were on it?
    Breanne
    Cadillac Customer Service

  11. #26
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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Quote Originally Posted by WillK View Post
    CTS coupe is indeed a different roof. In fact, the CTS sedan sunroof configuration is one of the less common configuration, it seems to be that among 2 panel sunroof configuration it is more common to have the openning where the movable glass panel goes over the top of the other panel as it does on SRX, CTS wagon and Buick LaCross.

    Where the design challenge comes into play with the CTS sedan is that the seal on the moving glass panel has to move past either a fixed glass panel or the roof sheetemetal, and this motion takes place in both directions. For a vent only configuration such as CTS coupe or a configuration where the open position moves the moving glass panel over top of the fixed glass panel, you can provide an edge flange and a bottom flange for the seal to seat against and this is a means of managing design variation. You can't do that with a configuration like the CTS sedan.
    WillK,

    I am an engineer too and could endlessly discuss pros and cons of various applications and the challenges. At the end though I am a consumer and the owner of a CTS and expect Cadillac fixes the issue. It is apparent to me that there is a design issue with the seal. And there is no permanent fix for that. Pity. Another dispointment with GM.

    At least some of the GM personnel are trying to reach to the owners and get some feedback. And I respect you for that.

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Take all of loiue's suggestions into serious consideration.

    A screw type adjustment would make it 10x easier for a tech to adjust and a rigid rear panel that was joined with the body would eliminate any concerns that originate from the rear glass, effectively eliminating 50% of a chance for something to go wrong.
    MoFex and MoFex like this.

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    I have a 2008 CTS that had the moonroof adjusted for wind noise at highway 3 times at the dealership since new.
    The roof false reverses as well.

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Quote Originally Posted by MoFex View Post
    WillK,

    I am an engineer too and could endlessly discuss pros and cons of various applications and the challenges. At the end though I am a consumer and the owner of a CTS and expect Cadillac fixes the issue. It is apparent to me that there is a design issue with the seal. And there is no permanent fix for that. Pity. Another dispointment with GM.

    At least some of the GM personnel are trying to reach to the owners and get some feedback. And I respect you for that.
    Well, on this topic I can offer speculation and because I'm relatively newly employed, anything that might not be able to say would be something I genuinely don't know first hand. I've got to imagine that being that the second generation CTS launched as a 2008 model year program, the financial state of GM at the time meant that the resources were not there at the time for post-launch support. The automotive industry in Michigan as a whole had been in decline as of when I lost my automotive job in Fall of 2006 and for the first time in my career wasn't getting more than 1 interview per month until I started looking outside the automotive industry and outside Michigan.

    As an engineer, perhaps you can understand the limits of what design changes can be implemented at this point in a production program. I also hope you can recognize that I'm reluctant to go there because I am trying to avoid anything that could come across as discouraging. The bottom line is that my inquiries here are most directly going to affect a new vehicle program, which also limits what I can say because I can't disclose either details of testing or product design before the program is formally announced to the public via press release.

    The closest I can offer to advice with current production vehicles having sunroof issues is that the most practical solution available is adjustment of the glass panels. I am somewhat familiar with the adjustment procedure in production, but not at all familiar with the service adjustment procedure aside from the fact that I am aware that it is different than the production adjustment procedure. As far as how the glass would ideally be adjusted in production, it wouldn't be practical for dealers because it would involve a fixture that would take up too much space and cost too much for any dealership. And it wouldn't take anything complicate like lasers or a vision system, it could probably be simulated...

    I haven't searched for the dealer adjustment procedure, but if I read it I could probably offer my general assessment as to whether it could be improved.

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    Re: Hi, I'm an engineer, tell me about your sunroof

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Take all of loiue's suggestions into serious consideration.

    A screw type adjustment would make it 10x easier for a tech to adjust and a rigid rear panel that was joined with the body would eliminate any concerns that originate from the rear glass, effectively eliminating 50% of a chance for something to go wrong.
    Well, to my mind, the suggestion begs the question as to whether there are any concerns originating from the rear glass...

    The degree to which the system would function better with a given configuration, given the choice between the rear glass attaching to the sunroof module or attaching to the roof openning reinforcement panel in the body, depends very much on the production process. But even if it was done that way it wouldn't be practical as a service procedure because of the complexity of the change, it would involve changes to the sunroof frame and weld-on body components. Basicly, the rear panel shouldn't be moving anyway and as long as all the relevant components are within print specifications and adjustmets it's a design that should be pretty hard to mess up. If I'm wrong about that I'd be interested to look at it further.

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