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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, steering rack failure in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; So, good timing on this thread. When I installed my Fluidyne FHP-10029, I used the existing plumbing. At the very ...
  1. #31
    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: steering rack failure

    So, good timing on this thread. When I installed my Fluidyne FHP-10029, I used the existing plumbing. At the very least, I should have upgraded to ring clamps. Yesterday, the upper hose partially backed off while I was driving. Because of where I was at, I had to drive about 7 miles before I could stop and fix the problem. By that point, the volume loss was substantial and the pump had boiled almost everything that remained.

    At this point, I plan to reclamp the hose and refill the system as a short term fix, but I suspect that the pump is damaged and should be replaced. My plan is to replace the stock pump with an adjustable, iron KRC 50000100 pump (their aluminum race pump costs about $700), which includes a larger, integrated reservoir and AN style fittings. The primary challenge is figuring out how to install this thing--some LS engined cars have a power steering bracket that is compatible with this pump. For everyone else, head-mount brackets are readily available for about $50. I called KRC and they have not had hood clearance issues with those mounting brackets.

    The other thing is that, like the GM pumps, this pump will start to cavitation above 5500 RPM. That blew my mind. Normally this isn't a problem because most LS-powered vehicles aren't operated continuously at higher RPM. However, this news is a concerning. Using the KRC 6" 50217600 pulley, the stock 7.530" crank pulley will cause cavitation at 4382 RPM engine RPM and above. The alternative is to drop almost $900 (once you include the billet reservoir and 6" pulley) on the race pump, which can spin to 9100 RPM (7429 engine RPM) without cavitation, and has additional tuning functions. But I'd rather not spend the money. What say you?

    Also, I'll be purchasing a Derale 9000 (e.g. P/N 13612, $85, measuring 18.6" x 8" x 1.9") or 10000 series cooler and upgrading to AN style lines and fittings intended for the kinds of pressures that power steering systems typically operate at (e.g. 1600 PSI).

  2. #32
    69stangscj's Avatar
    69stangscj is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    At this point, I plan to reclamp the hose and refill the system as a short term fix, but I suspect that the pump is damaged and should be replaced.
    Why do you suspect the pump is damaged if your hose came off? Driving with no fuild?

  3. #33
    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Quote Originally Posted by 69stangscj View Post
    Why do you suspect the pump is damaged if your hose came off? Driving with no fuild?
    Correct. When I arrived home, the pump was continuously boiling Redline power steering fluid.

  4. #34
    philistine's Avatar
    philistine is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    At this point, I plan to reclamp the hose and refill the system as a short term fix, but I suspect that the pump is damaged and should be replaced. My plan is to replace the stock pump with an adjustable, iron KRC 50000100 pump (their aluminum race pump costs about $700), which includes a larger, integrated reservoir and AN style fittings. The primary challenge is figuring out how to install this thing--some LS engined cars have a power steering bracket that is compatible with this pump. For everyone else, head-mount brackets are readily available for about $50. I called KRC and they have not had hood clearance issues with those mounting brackets.
    Just spit ballin' from limited research....If you end up with a lower pressure other than stock OEM design, it will impact that effortless luxury steering. I'm sure it would give more feedback to the driver while driving at speeds but PITA while trying to park in tight situations. It was out of my budget to 'fix' the design of the power steering pump - too much duty, creates excessive heat. Turn One had some orifices to augment the pressure with line fittings.

    Also, I'll be purchasing a Derale 9000 (e.g. P/N 13612, $85, measuring 18.6" x 8" x 1.9") or 10000 series cooler and upgrading to AN style lines and fittings intended for the kinds of pressures that power steering systems typically operate at (e.g. 1600 PSI).
    The high pressure steering line from OEM is a pretty tight fit. Those fittings are threaded from the pump to the rack. The other lines are lower pressure. The OEM replacement pump I have has the barbs and so does the aftermarket cooler. When I looked at doing AN style lines, it would not be end-to-end so I abandoned it.

    I have the complete system out right now and plan on rebuilding/installing the rack this weekend. The rack seal kit is intimidating...a ton of o-rings.

    You might want to loosen that small clamp on the inner tie rod boot, give it a squeeze and see if you have any fluid in there. Just turn the wheel and you have all the clearance you need for a quick check.

  5. #35
    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: steering rack failure

    The KRC pumps are adjustable--you can tune their flow rates for your vehicle and driving style.

  6. #36
    jmargo is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Just received my cooler yesterday. Heads up that the guy is somewhat slow to ship and just throws it into connected flat rate boxes with no padding whatsoever.

  7. #37
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    The KRC pumps are adjustable--you can tune their flow rates for your vehicle and driving style.
    Why did you choose KRC 6" 50217600 pulley? Reading the website they also offer 6.5 6-RIB SERPENTINE PULLEY LS1 LS6 OFFSET Part # KRC 50219650.

    Something with the offset?

    I was curious if Turn One's steering pump for the V2 would fit on the V1 - didn't pursue it, $400 price tag.

    http://turnone.squarespace.com/cadil...v-pump-pulley/

  8. #38
    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: steering rack failure

    This is unbelievable. I'm going to try to clamp the hose properly tonight and pray that my power steering pump is okay. I talked to everyone under the sun, and if you're running a LS series motor, you have to use the expensive aluminum pump. Or you can pay $500 for a new OEM one that'll cavitate and burn up above 5500 RPM, like the cast iron one. Here's the damage, in case you were thinking about following in my footsteps:
    1. KRC 63200000 High Volume (9.66cc) Pro Series Pump ($560)
    2. KRC 50219650 6.5" 6-groove Pro Series pump pulley ($115)
    3. KRC 60312000 6" Pro Series bolt-on tank (eliminates biggest failure mode of power steering systems) ($110)
    4. KRC 71410000 LS-series Head Mount Bracket (Pro series only) ($55)
    5. 6AN Eaton PTFE 3000 PSI Hose or Aeroquip AQP with steel fittings (minimum requirement is 2250 PSI operating pressure on the outlet side and 28 inches/HG on the inlet side) (roughly $60)
    6. Derale 13612 Series 9000 transmission oil cooler with 1/2" NPT ports ($82)
    7. Two steel 1/2" NPT male to 6AN male fittings (e.g. Aeroquip FCM2525) ($10)
    8. Hose adapters to connect to the power steering rack (unknown type and cost)
    9. Longer serpentine drive belt (unknown length and cost)
    Total: $992+

    As best I can tell, there are no other options if you plan on reving your engine above 4800 RPM for more than a second or two per day. There are literally no other pump manufacturers out there that publish RPM numbers or have products designed for above 5000 RPM (including PSC, based on today's research). According to KRC engineers, all of the aftermarket pumps on the market will cavitate at 5500 RPM or less, since they're based on the GM/Chevy/Ford designs. Important KRC bracket and mounting information linkage here.

  9. #39
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Quote Originally Posted by JosephScott View Post
    Hey whatsup, I actually own my own autoparts store. I wholesale to repair shops but I have no problem selling to anybody who needs stuff. When it comes to parts, Im the guy. I can get my hands on anything and I have alot of OEM stuff especially ACDelco. A new steering rack for your first generation V, which I own one myself would have been like 330.00. Part number 15878029. Original. Something rebuilt in a company called ARC would have been like 247.00. Part number 70-6761.
    Make yourself available! Your inbox is full and cannot receive PM's.

  10. #40
    StretchASU is offline Cadillac Owners Member
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    Re: steering rack failure

    If you are dead set on designing a custom steering system, someone you may want to check out as well and talk to is Howe I was more than happy with their products in the past on my buggy and never had an issue with burning up pumps once I switched to their cooler and pump on my last one. Their stuff is the premier when it comes to desert racing and Ultra4 steering and all of those "cars" see 5000rpm+ for much longer than a second or two a day and not all of them run the expensive aluminum pumps.

    There are a lot of tips and tricks to get around the whole cavitating issue. Most notable is to go ahead and run the largest cooler, supply lines and reservoir that you can fit in your engine bay. This just allows you to increase fluid volume in the entire system and more fluid allows better dissipation of heat as the fluid moves through the system, the reservoir allows for expansion and for the fluid to recover from the effects of cavitation before being sucked back into the pump and pushed through the system. The issues typically come from the system not staying cool enough to not burn up seals and valves in the pump or steering box/rack. Even if you are running the car hard on a track, autox or spirited road driving, you will not spend enough time above 5500rpm at one given time to have any ill effects on a properly cooled steering system even with a stock pump.

    How many people are out there tracking LS based cars and stock'ish steering systems with just an upgraded cooler and maybe an extra fan with the stock pumps and they are surviving just fine. Unless you just want to spend a bunch of money to have a fancy custom CTS-V steering system, you are throwing money down the drain trying to upgrade pumps, pullies, having to buy accessory brackets and belts etc.

  11. #41
    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Philistine, if you have your steering rack out, could you inspect the inlet/outlet connections and identify their size and thread pattern? Talking to Norm @ KRC (40+ years experience), he believes that one of the major causes of burnt fluid is piss-poor fluid system sizing, routing, and thermal shielding. He believes that most GM racks use metric 16mm or 18mm threaded connections (somewhere in that ballpark).

    Also, we indicated that may have made a mistake in using the Fluidyne cooler and added flow resistance instead of taking it away. So while the fluid was arriving back at the reservoir a little cooler, the pump had to work harder to push it through the system. I have an email out to Derale to confirm whether transmission-type coolers are not suitable for power steering. In the meantime, it appears that the rail-mounted Derale 13225 is the best (and largest) available cooler for power steering. I'm also tracking the possibility that standard transmission coolers do not tolerance the kind of vibration that power steering systems produce particularly well.

  12. #42
    philistine's Avatar
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Philistine, if you have your steering rack out, could you inspect the inlet/outlet connections and identify their size and thread pattern? Talking to Norm @ KRC (40+ years experience), he believes that one of the major causes of burnt fluid is piss-poor fluid system sizing, routing, and thermal shielding. He believes that most GM racks use metric 16mm or 18mm threaded connections (somewhere in that ballpark).

    Also, we indicated that may have made a mistake in using the Fluidyne cooler and added flow resistance instead of taking it away. So while the fluid was arriving back at the reservoir a little cooler, the pump had to work harder to push it through the system. I have an email out to Derale to confirm whether transmission-type coolers are not suitable for power steering. In the meantime, it appears that the rail-mounted Derale 13225 is the best (and largest) available cooler for power steering. I'm also tracking the possibility that standard transmission coolers do not tolerance the kind of vibration that power steering systems produce particularly well.
    16mm - M18x2 return
    14mm - M16x2 supply

    The measurements were taken using my Starrett 1202F dial caliper - inches, so I converted. The tap size is the best 'guess'. The pump operates at variable speed so it does not load follow. There are internal reliefs built into the rack to prevent overpressurization. I don't think flow is an issue. It operates a cylinder in the rack - just one simple job. Hydraulics doesn't need heat, that is from the constantly running variable speed positive displacement steering pump - just needs to lock in your position. It's constantly relieving.

    I don't think flow is an issue. I think the Fluidyne cooler is sufficient for dropping the steering oil temps with no issues.

  13. #43
    FuzzyLogic is offline Banned
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Thanks very much for the help, Philistine. Depending on how this weekend goes, I may be replacing the entire system (other than the rack). Stay tuned. Also, Chris @ Geforce has been feeding me regular updates on their progress on my kit. It sounds like they shipped the center section case today, and I should be getting the driveshaft tomorrow or Monday. The axles are presently in heat treat and may not ship until the end of next week.

  14. #44
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    verywhitedevil is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Quote Originally Posted by jmargo View Post
    Just received my cooler yesterday. Heads up that the guy is somewhat slow to ship and just throws it into connected flat rate boxes with no padding whatsoever.
    same experience here when mine arrived.

  15. #45
    jmargo is offline Cadillac Owners Fanatic
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    Re: steering rack failure

    Quote Originally Posted by verywhitedevil View Post
    same experience here when mine arrived.
    I had a little damage on the lower bracket but it should be fine. So are we not using the fluidyne now ?

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