Cadillac Owners Forum banner

pig in slop

131K views 704 replies 43 participants last post by  philistine 
#1 · (Edited)
Weekend just isn't long enough...

 
See less See more
1
#167 ·
Mfer...seems my vacuum manifold is back ordered - phuckin import world gobbled them up!

So here's my hobb's switch (2psi pressure switch) and LED lights (I ordered 2).



I absolutely love the silicone 1/2" line...used this in previous stuff, such quality!


This is just prep for boost. The LEDs are for indication for the secondary fuel pump and the hose is to replace the OEM brake booster junk and splice for the vacuum manifold.
 
#170 ·
I purchased the LED indicator and switches from Oznium.com

1. LED indicator
2. LED switch

The idea is to have indication of the secondary pump. The LED switch is to override the Hobbs switch. I plan to wire the secondary fuel pump off the "turn-on" power a.k.a. ignition power wire lead as the trigger wire for the relay.

So basically, when the second pump comes on, I get a light. If I want to force the second pump on, I can control that with a push button.
 
#171 ·
I like the idea of having a LED for the second pump, but I'm not sure whether you'll need the button outside of setup diagnostics.

Btw, I just got a whole bunch of miscellaneous parts for the fuel system in the mail:

- Various size hose clamps
- 0.032" lock wire
- More Dremel accessories and bits
- Two 1 ft lengths of 5/16" and 3/8" Gates Submersible hose, each
- Aeroquip FCM3661 aluminum vise jaw inserts
- 3/8" and 1/2" x 25' Drossbach split loom
- Aeromotive 15633 gauge (not a fan of its looks)
- Grizzly G7062 5" bench vise to replace the one I broke doing the Revshift mounts...this thing is huge!

My strategy is to work my way out of the bucket. As it turns out, it's basically impossible to find submersible hose bigger than 3/8" and smaller than 1-1/2". I looked at the return in the bucket and was impressed at how strong that nozzle was, so I was hoping to get a hold of some 5/8" hose. Anyway, more as I know more. Progress has been slow because of work and because I'm multi-tasking on a couple of other CTS-V projects.
 
#172 ·
I recognize a lot on that list! I believe your background is electrical but here's a few more that I find essential:

1. Raychem Much better than shrink tubing since this has an adhesive layer.
2. Butane soldering iron & flat tip
3. Kester 63/37 solder

The LED switch for the secondary fuel pump is to bypass the Hobbs (pressure switch) for any reason that might come up. I find it very comforting that I can push a button and activate full fuel flow. The LED light indication for the secondary pump is an absolute necessity. I'm looking at the fold-out faux ashtray in front of the shifter as a possible place for the switch and indicator.

I think you will be fine with 3/8" submersible. I personally used 5/16" (in tank) which I imagine will create a small pressure zone at the exit to the bucket which is fine. Without any real world data (and won't have any as the weather gets colder) I won't know what the cooling effect will be if any at all. What I mean is directly dumping the return in the bucket vs. dumping to the tank instead. I just want to keep the bucket filled. The other side of the tank should not be affected and should mix with the hotter return gas as it continues to flow in the system with the primary pump hooked up to the jet pump (Venturi effect).

I think it's fairly obvious that doing a return system will create more heat vs. returnless systems. My knowledge is that the PWM varies voltage to those systems for high/low duty on the fuel pump which also cuts down on heat. I don't have a backup plan if my fuel gets too hot - largely because the DW300s are medium size pumps and don't think I'll run into any issues. I noticed when I tested the DW300 pump that it gradually comes to full speed while the Walbro 255 was almost instant - like a buffer to limit torque on the DW300. This was part of the reason for choosing a Hobbs switch with a lower pressure setting.

I'm still waiting on my vacuum manifold to complete the install - this will tell me where to run my wires for the secondary pump trigger and bypass switch etc.
 
#173 ·
More pics:

Here's some profile pics on the BLOX vacuum manifold. Apparently the color black is back-ordered so I settled for silver.




Installed the fittings.



Drilled and installed rivet nuts to secure the vacuum manifold.


Mounted the vacuum manifold and spliced into the brake booster.




The pics don't show the depth but with the Hobbs switch, it has tons of clearance and does not interfere with any of the other lines. I plan to use the additional ports when the boost comes. I'll go into the wiring once everything is tested and I'm satisfied with the results.
 
#174 · (Edited)
Here is where I mounted the LED switch (secondary pump override) and LED indication for secondary pump activation:









This way I don't sacrifice the use of the factory outlet plug and the ashtray can be used to mount my AFR gauge when the time comes.

***Edit***
Here's a pic showing the 6pin molex connector - wanted to include this important detail.
 
#175 ·
Looking good. Shame that there wasn't an easy way to strap a RTD or IC-based temperature sensor to the surface of the fuel pumps to monitor their temperature. By the way, do you remember what you used to cap the OEM bucket's ports?

I ordered the soldering gear you recommended--I have a standard 115 VAC soldering iron, but liked the idea of a portable one. Also bought an Earl's 10AN, 90 degree bulkhead connector (AT983310ERL) to test clearance with. I believe a 90 degree fitting has a lower profile than using a straight bulkhead fitting + 90 degree adapter. There's no extra nut, as these two pictures suggest:





For the return line fitting at the bucket, I picked up a 3/8" barb to 1/4" NPT 45 degree fitting and a 1/4"-18 NPT tap. For the outbound feed lines, the jury's still out. The diameter of the DW300 outlet is just a touch small for 3/8" hose, so I might run 5/16" hose. I'd really like to go 3/8" into 1/2" NPT, and from there to AN-style fittings. But the idea of trying to clamp hose that tight seems like a bad idea.
 
#176 ·
Looking good. Shame that there wasn't an easy way to strap a RTD or IC-based temperature sensor to the surface of the fuel pumps to monitor their temperature. By the way, do you remember what you used to cap the OEM bucket's ports?
Thanks! I finally got all the under-the-hood wired up. I soldered all the connectors.. even the crimped ones for added strength. To answer your question I used some vacuum caps that I picked up from Advance Auto and used a cheapo plastic welder and plastic welding rods from Harbor Freight. To keep the vacuum caps on there I used Goop. All that after I cut the tips off. You also have to install the fuel tank lock ring before you install the bulkhead fittings. Don't forget this detail!!!

I ordered the soldering gear you recommended--I have a standard 115 VAC soldering iron, but liked the idea of a portable one. Also bought an Earl's 10AN, 90 degree bulkhead connector (AT983310ERL) to test clearance with. I believe a 90 degree fitting has a lower profile than using a straight bulkhead fitting + 90 degree adapter. There's no extra nut, as these two pictures suggest:
That butane soldering iron is the absolute best portable I have ever used - you will not regret it! Painfully I went through several types of solder in my early days and that link I gave is the easiest stuff to work with and makes a very strong connection. Regarding the Earl's fitting, I like name brand too but Summit will nickel/dime you if/when you start to straggle fittings as you piece it all together. I used your recommendation and purchased almost all my fittings/hoses from ebay and the shipping was fast and free! I found no difference in quality over Earl's - yet.


For the return line fitting at the bucket, I picked up a 3/8" barb to 1/4" NPT 45 degree fitting and a 1/4"-18 NPT tap. For the outbound feed lines, the jury's still out. The diameter of the DW300 outlet is just a touch small for 3/8" hose, so I might run 5/16" hose. I'd really like to go 3/8" into 1/2" NPT, and from there to AN-style fittings. But the idea of trying to clamp hose that tight seems like a bad idea.
I like that 45 degree fitting, it looks like a perfect fit/angle for the return into the bucket when you tap that port. Regarding the hose size for the feeds, you are going to get a pressure drop no matter if it is a 5/16 or 3/8 as it enters the main fuel line of a -10 and will shortly stabilize to a nice laminar flow up to the fuel rails. Either one will be fine but I would install what is convenient. Those corrugated flex lines I used make installing the bucket much easier and it will only fit on 5/16 barb/nipple.

My thoughts are if you use anything other than those flexible corrugated lines for the feeds from the pumps, the bucket will not fit into the tank - it is a damn tight fit! Then again, I haven't seen your design.
 
#179 · (Edited)
Ok brake bleeding is the absolute suck on this platform with a hand pump Mityvac. I feel like pop-eye as it gave my forearms a workout. I lost a lot of my brake fluid from disengaging the passenger side brake line when I dropped the cradle.

I'll be firing it up this weekend and crossing my fingers all goes well. Gonna set the regulator to 58psi. I won't be driving it until I install the ATI Superdamper. I ordered the pinning kit, ARP bolt and install tool from Coloradospeed.

Not far down the road I'll be installing the PLX-DM6 gauge AFR combo (UEGO) in the ashtray location. I have the materials to start on the fab work. This will be in conjunction with the HP Tuners - apparently you have to purchase the HP Tuners Pro edition to enable the wideband for datalogging and integrate it with the rest of the system. All that crap is gonna retail ~$800 so it can wait. The only added sensor I can think to add is the PLX fuel module perhaps EGT down the road. The benefit with the DM-6 gauge is that you only use one gauge for multiple inputs...keeps it clean, no ridiculous pods cluttering the interior.
 
#180 ·
First and foremost... Excellent thread with alot of real good information.

I have a couple of questions. I'm currently having fuel pump issues and I believe you will have some insight on this since you've run thru this before.
My question is... does the Racetronix wiring kit replace the ground that is used on the stock harness, or does it simply add another ground? Or what exactly does the additional ground add-on for the racetronix apply to?

I believe I have a bad ground thats causing intermittent problems with starting the car. Occasionally I lose all fuel pressure, and while the car will crank and crank, it will not start. I'm hoping to troubleshoot and locate the issue. I've already had the tank dropped twice and cut an access door. I may go your route on the gasket, but I should have access to material to cut the door cover myself and possibly use aluminum tape afterwards.

I'm on a budget, but after talking with Fuzzy, I plan on going with the racetronix kit, 1 dw300, and the #11 kit. I plan on picking up a used bucket and building on that. I'll be running the racetronix kit as done on here, underneath the car.

Sorry to interrupt the thread with that. Just figured I'd ask since alot of the parts were relevant here.
 
#182 ·
First and foremost... Excellent thread with alot of real good information.
Thanks! I often wondered who was taking interest whether good/bad.

I have a couple of questions. I'm currently having fuel pump issues and I believe you will have some insight on this since you've run thru this before.
My question is... does the Racetronix wiring kit replace the ground that is used on the stock harness, or does it simply add another ground? Or what exactly does the additional ground add-on for the racetronix apply to?
It doesn't replace the ground. It adds an additional ground that you have to provide where you see fit. I drilled and used rivet nuts for my grounds and placed them in a convenient location that has no obstructions and somewhat easy to access. Pics are in this thread...somewhere.

I believe I have a bad ground thats causing intermittent problems with starting the car. Occasionally I lose all fuel pressure, and while the car will crank and crank, it will not start. I'm hoping to troubleshoot and locate the issue. I've already had the tank dropped twice and cut an access door. I may go your route on the gasket, but I should have access to material to cut the door cover myself and possibly use aluminum tape afterwards.
Before you start hacking away your car and buying hotwire kits, take a datalog and find out what your PWM is doing. The Pulse Width Module regulates the fuel pressure with voltage IIRC. If that is functioning properly then you may have a connection issue at the fuel module. Adding the hotwire eliminates the PWM function and the fuel pump will constantly be running at the voltage supplied...good and bad. Good if you are using a BAP and modified fuel system, BAD if you you have neither - this is debatable but the PWM regulates the fuel pressure.

I'm on a budget, but after talking with Fuzzy, I plan on going with the racetronix kit, 1 dw300, and the #11 kit. I plan on picking up a used bucket and building on that. I'll be running the racetronix kit as done on here, underneath the car.
While I don't think that is a bad idea you have to consider what you are gaining/losing. Eliminating the PWM by using a relay has its advantages for FI but hardly any for N/A. The DW300 will operate at a constant voltage using a hotwire but if you DO NOT USE the hotwire the DW300 will be regulated by the PWM. It gets complicated. I would not suggest for anyone to use a hotwire unless they are at high horsepower or FI because you lose the PWM which is really efficient for ~500whp - others can disagree but I'm basing that on stock pump.

Sorry to interrupt the thread with that. Just figured I'd ask since alot of the parts were relevant here.
In summary, I would take a graded approach if you are N/A and add an additional ground to the fuel pump without the hotwire. If FI then definitely add the hotwire and DW300 pump. The DW300 pump I chose because it's going to be running constantly at a constant voltage and needed something "low duty" so it doesn't draw excessive current. This was strictly for running FI with high horsepower in mind with a target of ~850whp (twin pumps of course).

I hope you understand what I'm suggesting...hotwire - eliminates PWM, fuel pump runs constantly. Add a ground (no hotwire) might solve your problem. Accessing those wires is a PITA to add a ground even with a trap door.
 
#183 ·
Philistine, I didn't know that the stock pump was PWMed. My impression was that it was running at rated speed, the whole time.

Also, for what it's worth, there have been a couple of discussions on LS1Tech regarding the stock pump: while some have been able to make 500 RWHP on the stock pump, many others have seen fuel pressure at the rail fall significantly during WOT runs at 430-450 RWHP.

Assuming you're correct about the PWM, I'd argue that any CTS-V making more than 425 RWHP should have a Racetronix hotwire kit and a better pump. When you look at the number of failed fuel systems on this platform, for stock-ish cars, you have to wonder whether there was any real margin in the design of the system. It seems plausible that PWM control was utilized to reduce electrical load on the system, or alternately, GM designed the power distribution system with PWM in mind. Either way, once you make enough power to increase the duty cycle significantly, something in the system is bound to fail.
 
#184 ·
Philistine, I didn't know that the stock pump was PWMed. My impression was that it was running at rated speed, the whole time.

Also, for what it's worth, there have been a couple of discussions on LS1Tech regarding the stock pump: while some have been able to make 500 RWHP on the stock pump, most others have seen pressure on the rail start to fall during WOT runs at 430-450 RWHP.

Assuming you're correct about the PWM, I'd argue that any CTS-V making more than 425 RWHP should have a Racetronix hotwire kit and better pump. When you look at the number of failed fuel pump connections on this platform, for cars making stock-ish power, you have to wonder whether there was any real margin in the design of the system. It seems plausible that PWM control was utilized to reduce electrical load on the system, or alternately, GM designed the power distribution system with a PWMed pump in mind. Once you make enough power to increase the duty cycle on that pump significantly, something in the system is bound to fail.
Fuzzy, based on my knowledge from tuning done that I have witnessed and inquired, the CTS-V is regulated by PWM - very good regulation system for moderate HP - not sufficient for FI or high horsepower.

I agree that the system was engineered with reducing the electrical load - very common with returnless fuel systems for fuel regulation. This is why using a hotwire in my mind should be used with a complete overhaul of the regulation fuel system - just my thoughts.
 
#186 ·
It doesn't replace the ground. It adds an additional ground that you have to provide where you see fit. I drilled and used rivet nuts for my grounds and placed them in a convenient location that has no obstructions and somewhat easy to access. Pics are in this thread...somewhere.
I'll search and hopefully find this.

Before you start hacking away your car and buying hotwire kits, take a datalog and find out what your PWM is doing. The Pulse Width Module regulates the fuel pressure with voltage IIRC. If that is functioning properly then you may have a connection issue at the fuel module. Adding the hotwire eliminates the PWM function and the fuel pump will constantly be running at the voltage supplied...good and bad. Good if you are using a BAP and modified fuel system, BAD if you you have neither - this is debatable but the PWM regulates the fuel pressure.

I hope you understand what I'm suggesting...hotwire - eliminates PWM, fuel pump runs constantly. Add a ground (no hotwire) might solve your problem. Accessing those wires is a PITA to add a ground even with a trap door.
Datalog using a livescan obdii? Seems to be intermittent so might read correctly until it decides to not start again. I'm definitely assuming this is the ground, considering I've changed the fuel pump out already and still have the same issue. How exactly would I add an additional ground to the fuel pump? Splice into the black cable at the connector or near the relay section, and run another cable to chassis with a bolt?

While I don't think that is a bad idea you have to consider what you are gaining/losing. Eliminating the PWM by using a relay has its advantages for FI but hardly any for N/A. The DW300 will operate at a constant voltage using a hotwire but if you DO NOT USE the hotwire the DW300 will be regulated by the PWM. It gets complicated. I would not suggest for anyone to use a hotwire unless they are at high horsepower or FI because you lose the PWM which is really efficient for ~500whp - others can disagree but I'm basing that on stock pump.
I don't plan on doing a twin setup. I think this might be a bit more reliable than what is currently going on with the car. The first time the plug to the pump was removed, it was melted at the ground connector. I have a multimeter, but again, the issue seems intermittent. I am not doing it for performance gains as much as I am for reliability and ease of future access\work. You guys definitely know more on the subject than I do.
 
#188 · (Edited)
On page 5 of the thread, you posted this picture:



At the time, I was thinking, "wow...that's a pretty big mess. I should be able to keep my project space a little cleaner." Buuuuut, the closer I get, the more I'm thinking nope:



You can see some of my extracurricular activities up there...Hertz ESK 165L.5 speakers, 300 amp AD244 alternator, AMSOIL EAAU6081 filter, and so forth. I'm very pleased with the door, but I haven't cut the final opening yet so I don't know whether it'll be enough to clear -12AN fittings. I also ordered a couple of 15 foot lengths of PTFE hose and a smorgasbord of fittings from FrozenBoost:



The rest of the stuff is coming from eBay, Amazon, and Summit. I still need the regulator, filter, fuel rails, Hobbs switch, vacuum manifold, and an extra pair of Racetronix relays. Since I'll be deriving power from the alternator, I plan on running power along the driver's side rail and the fuel lines along the passenger side rail.

The return line will leave the -10AN return port on the bottom of the Aeromotive 13110 regulator, travel to the back of the car, and enter the bucket using a -10AN bulkhead adapter. A 45 degree, 10mm (3/8" equivalent) barb will connect to 3/8" Gates submersible hose, then there's another 3/8" barb, and into the bucket it goes.

The feed line will start life by traveling toward the engine via two Gates 5/16" submersible hoses, into two 8mm (5/16" equivalent) AN-type barbs (the black barbs on the FrozenBoost screenshot), through a -10AN Russell 650420 female Y-block, and either to a -10AN or -12AN bulkhead adapter. From there, the line becomes -12AN (if it isn't already), goes through the crazy -12AN Aeromotive 12310 filter, and up to a Magnafuel MP-6228 male Y-block where the single -12AN line becomes two -8AN lines. From there, the lines go through the Holley 534-209 fuel rails that you recommended, and into the twin -8AN side ports of the Aeromotive 13110 regulator. The bottom -10AN fitting is where the return line goes. A -4AN boost reference line will travel back to the vacuum manifold, and there will be an air-filled Aeromotive analog gauge to verify that the regulator is doing its job.

Because the regulator is probably going to end up looking like some kind of freakish Medusa head, with all of the vacuum/return/feed lines coming and going, I'm considering mounting the regulator behind the intake manifold. That would require running the twin -8AN feed lines past the the fuel rails, and then have them loop back and enter from the front. Although it might be a PITA to arrive at a solution that looks good, the effort might pay off in spades when routing all of the other lines.
 
#189 · (Edited)
All that looks great! Your parts list is much more comprehensive than mine regarding the bucket and fittings:






Each part of this job takes a massive amount of planning. Running the fuel lines takes a bit of work but for the most part just time consuming and not really too difficult. The part of the job that took me the longest was wiring. It really has to be well thought out and thoroughly tested prior to install. I spent at least 3 full days working on the wiring and getting it as clean as possible. I had to heavily modify the Racetronix kit on the length of the wire and some depinning here and there according to my set-up.

Regarding the vacuum manifold, I took a page from my import experience and used the Blox (pics are in this thread) commonly found on boosted Civics and s2ks. LG Motorsports makes one ridiculously overpriced and provides no under-the-hood flare. Just make sure you don't boost reference until you actually get boost - will screw up your fuel maps etc.

I haven't shopped for engines yet but I got plenty of time - taking the idea of a 427 iron block off the table.

Btw, my parts supply is starting to shrink FINALLY as all this stuff is just about finished going on the car.
 
#191 ·
I ran a couple things through my speedshop and he doesn't recommend it. He invited me to come down and take a look at some dyno print outs and give me a lesson on much better suited options with aluminum blocks that are much more efficient and lighter weight. I"ll know more when I see what he has to show me.
 
#194 ·
Well, that depends on how well I can remain patient with the amount of power that I have. If I do things right, the G-Force 9" IRS with a carbon fiber driveshaft is first, a Level VII TR6060 with oil cooler is second, the engine (which could cost as little as $8000 for a 416 CID LS3 or as much as $17000 for a 427 CID RHS) is third, and the 3.3L or 4.0L Whipple is fourth. My budget will allow me to complete the two piece rotor and V2 caliper upgrades, fuel system, and POR-15 underbody coating, this year. If I pinch pennies, I could have either the G-Force 9" IRS or a LS3 by the June timeframe. The one thing that I'm not factoring in is what I might get for my existing engine, transmission, and rear end--complete.
 
#195 ·
Looks like we'll be shopping for engines/FI about the same time perhaps.

I finally fired it up! I kept it at idle to check for leaks. All the wiring works and the secondary pump LED switch and indicator works like a charm. The regulator is pre-set to 40psi and IIRC these engines are supposed to receive 58psi - please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW, NO LEAKS!

The DW300 have a high pitch sound when they wind up but I have the back seat out and trap door open so it's louder and because I'm listening for it. I guess I can do a follow up post on the wiring and relays since it passed! I can put away my CO2 bottles - you never know.

Time for some beer drinking...
 
#196 · (Edited)
58 PSI is correct. With regards to the high pitched sound, once you close the door, the amount of sound should drop significantly. Add a layer of Luxury Liner Pro before you put the seat bottom down (and 1-2 layers of b-Quiet to prevent vibration from the drivetrain coupling into the cabin) and it'll nearly eliminate fuel pump noise. I hear my Walbro 255 LPH more through the sides of the car (through "flanking paths") than through the seat now.

I'm surprised that you didn't take the opportunity to set the regulator to 58 PSI during your test run (when the fuel system was out of the car). That's what I plan on doing... I don't want to risk inducing detonation upon system initialization.

Glad that you're taking time to celebrate. I find it hard to kick back and rest. Congratulations--I wish I could see your reaction when you drive! Oh, and . . . beware of the alignment. You'll probably be fine in dry weather, but add some water or snow on the road, and your crazy rear toe numbers are going to make it hard to control the car.
 
#197 ·
Last time I checked fuel pressure with the engine running perfect, pressure was ~60psi, so 58 sounds dead nuts.
Congrats on a solid setup. With all the pages here, a bit more than beer drinking is what I'd be doing. I'd wake up wearing parts, TBH. LOL
 
#199 · (Edited)
Any idea why your fuel pressure increased by almost 5 PSI when you had the second pump on? For almost two months, I've been quietly pondering the question, "does adding a second pump in parallel effectively create a leak in the feed line?" Now I'm almost certain I should buy a check valve. From the ad:

"These Aeromotive high-flow one-way check valves are designed to prevent back-flow with minimal pressure drop. [...] They're ideal for use when preventing drainback after the fuel pump is turned off, or when dual pumps are employed and both pumps will not always be running together."
Also, based on the amount of effort it took to shift gears, it looks like you're not done bleeding yet. ;) Also, is your exhaust ceramic coated?
 
#200 · (Edited)
Any idea why your fuel pressure increased by almost 5 PSI when you had the second pump on? For almost two months, I've been silently pondering the question, "does adding a second pump effectively create a leak in the line?" Now I'm definitely thinking I need to buy a check valve. They come in all shapes and sizes. From the ad:


Also, based on the amount of effort it took to shift gears, it looks like you're not done bleeding yet. ;)
The fuel lines can more than handle the additional pressure increase of the secondary pump. I have my suspicions regarding the increase in fuel pressure (some apparent and some more in depth) and I'll do more testing. The regulator has to be set while in operation Fuzzy - unless you have a crystal ball that tells you exactly how many turns on the stem to pre-set it.

I'm definitely not done bleeding...my brakes and my clutch - what a major PITA!

***Edit***
Here's my somewhat drunk tribute:
Thanks for all the applause (and silent ones). I tried something new by showing the step-by-step process of modding, thinking, changing, soliciting advice/instruction and learning along the way. It gives a path for everyone to embellish, copy, or flame. Fuzzy added a tremendous amount of content - special thanks!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top