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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, pig in slop in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; I buy that. Totally agree on the wrap idea. Here are a couple of ideas: http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-140...express+sleeve http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-140...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-140...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 On a ...
  1. #121
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    Re: pig in slop

    I buy that. Totally agree on the wrap idea. Here are a couple of ideas:

    http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-140...express+sleeve
    http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-140...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    http://www.amazon.com/Thermo-Tec-140...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    On a related note, my other DW300 and the spare CTS-V bucket arrived. The door hardware looks pretty good (pictures later). Still missing the regulator, fuel rails, lines, and fittings. Still debating between -10AN and -12AN. But I can start to assemble the bucket. Question: do you know why people use ribbed hose instead of smooth-walled hose for the outlets of fuel pumps?



    It makes sense to use ribbed hose on the pump inlet, since the vacuum pulled by the pump would tend to want to suck the hose flat and the ribbed design provides great crush resistance. But for pressurized applications, smooth hose should be better because it flows better. Or am I looking at your picture wrong? It's been a while since I dug into the bucket...hopefully will get to it next week.

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    Re: pig in slop

    I have some of that same exact Thermotec sleeving left over so I'm going to use that. Regarding the corrugated fuel lines, I'm going to guess because of the bend radius it provides. The black hose used in the pic I picked up at Advance Autoparts - 5/16" EFI hose.

    I want to point out the horseshoe feature on the fuel bucket - it interferes no matter how you position it. I ended up "dressing" it by cutting a notch. When you shove that thing in there it compresses a lot! The new fittings interfere with the horseshoe so just keep that in mind. Do a "hand squash test" on it.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    I have some of that same exact Thermotec sleeving left over so I'm going to use that. Regarding the corrugated fuel lines, I'm going to guess because of the bend radius it provides. The black hose used in the pic I picked up at Advance Autoparts - 5/16" EFI hose.

    I want to point out the horseshoe feature on the fuel bucket - it interferes no matter how you position it. I ended up "dressing" it by cutting a notch. When you shove that thing in there it compresses a lot! The new fittings interfere with the horseshoe so just keep that in mind. Do a "hand squash test" on it.
    I'll keep that in mind. Here's what I'm thinking on the fuel system, starting from the outlet of the pump. What follows is intended to provide the lowest practicable flow resistance to the pumps, since a parallel pump configuration does not provide additional pump head to overcome flow resistance like a series configuration does.
    1. Immediately transition from 1/4" or 3/8" barb (not sure if will fit) to -8AN hose.
    2. Convert from two -8AN to single -12AN hose via a MagnaFuel MP-6228 Y-block, then penetrate the bulkhead. 90 degree turn and over the tank.
      OR: run both -8AN lines to separate -8AN bulkhead penetrators, and then join together to form a single -12AN line. This might be tricky, because I'd still have to fit the -10AN return from the regulator in there (three penetrations instead of two). It's a trade-off between vertical clearance and bulkhead space.
    3. Aeromotive 12310 filter to the engine bay, and then through another Y-block to the -8AN fuel rails.
    4. From the rails to the -8AN inputs on a front-mounted Aeromotive 13110 (recommended). This regulator has three -8AN inputs, one -10AN input, one -10AN return, one -4AN boost reference input, and a 1/8" NPT port for a gauge. I have no idea what the third -8AN input is for.
    In the event that I run out of fuel a year or two, my contingency plan is a Kenne Bell Dual Boost-A-Pump ($460) to raise pump voltage to 17.5 VDC under load. According to the DW300 tech sheet, each pump should put out 275 LPH @ 13.5 VDC (a zero flow restriction figure, obviously) and a whopping 395 LPH at 18 VDC.

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    Re: pig in slop

    1. The barbs I used were 5/16" inside diameter. I used the tri-hole air fitting commonly used on MightyMouse's fuel upgrades and Frostbites. Just plugged the 3rd hole since not using it. I used that particular fitting because of the low footprint since the bucket design is not a hangar style and since the bucket compresses so much. The corrugated hose pieces will not fit on anything larger than a 5/16" barb.

    2. Again, that bucket barely fits with just stock fittings. If you increase the diameter of the hose in and around the bucket, you will encounter fitment issues trying to squeeze that bucket in the tank. I could not fit the bucket in there with the EFI hose attached to the return port. I had to disconnect then reattach it while the bucket was in the tank - major PITA! The larger hose diameter interfered.

    3/4. Interesting set-up. Feeding both sides at the same time is an optimal setup. I thought about doing it but opted for something with a cleaner look. I don't know how much benefit you'll get from that arrangement based on any experience...in other words, real life feedback from builds that use that particular set-up.

    I know you're worried about flow and elbows give restrictions etc. but high flow long radius elbows work just fine. Just let the regulator do the work. The pumps are more than capable supplying -8AN hose size sufficiently to the rails with a few elbows in there - pressure, velocity and volume will equalize for high horsepower demands.

    Personally, I would go with the smallest diameter fuel supply/return hose that I could get away with for high horsepower demands then work backwards. I would suggest a couple of washers when bolting up the fuel tank to give a little more clearance as the fuel lines exit and make their journey to the fuel rails. When it comes to SS fuel lines, I've heard more cases where people start out using it only to abandon it because they lose the fight trying to route it to the engine compartment. I had to run the fuel lines three times, 1st - to get the proper length and make the cuts and fittings, 2nd - to dry fit and mark placement of Adel clamps, 3rd - final install with heatshield wrap etc. The required work was the easy part...figuring out stuff took the longest time as you explore your options and order more parts.

    1. Had a week delay when I realized I needed a 90 degree return fitting on the regulator. This was to keep the line away from the headers. I didn't notice it till I found a better path and decided no compromises.
    2. Another delay when I noticed I needed heat shielding around the headers as it makes it way to the engine compartment - another order.
    3. Another delay ordering ring terminals, flex loom and crimpers etc. when I was customizing my relay hotwires.
    4. Another delay ordering a rivet nut set when I decided not to use self tapping metal screws for mounting the fuel lines, and relays.

    Those are minor but ordering parts suck when your car is torn apart and you just wasted a weekend because you encountered unknowns. It would have been nice to get a self-contained kit complete with instructions so you could make a list of tools that you might need.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    2. Again, that bucket barely fits with just stock fittings. If you increase the diameter of the hose in and around the bucket, you will encounter fitment issues trying to squeeze that bucket in the tank. I could not fit the bucket in there with the EFI hose attached to the return port. I had to disconnect then reattach it while the bucket was in the tank - major PITA! The larger hose diameter interfered.
    Based on your pictures, I understand why the mechanical interference was there. In this picture, how close are you to the bend radius of the hose? It looks like you tapped the port where the OEM regulator used to be. Did you consider using a larger diameter hose and just clamping it over the plastic port? Or, if you were set on a barbed fitting, why not a pair of 45 degree fittings? I'm guessing they just weren't what you had on hand.



    Before I forget again: is there a functional difference between the black, -6AN, 90 degree return fitting and the blue, -8AN, 90 degree feed line fitting? Size differences aside. It looks like they're both finishing their turns at the same distance below the bucket. That leads me to believe that the return fitting has a larger bend radius, but I could be wrong. It looks like it might have a little straight section before bending.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    3/4. Interesting set-up. Feeding both sides at the same time is an optimal setup. I thought about doing it but opted for something with a cleaner look. I don't know how much benefit you'll get from that arrangement based on any experience...in other words, real life feedback from builds that use that particular set-up.
    AFAIK, having the regulator at the front of the fuel rails ensures that, should you see a pressure drop between the rear-most and front-most injectors (which you might under WOT), you err on the side of dumping too much fuel into the rear-most cylinders instead of too little. Should make the car easier to tune--especially later in the game when I start working on the 3.3/4.0L Whipple build.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    I had to run the fuel lines three times, 1st - to get the proper length and make the cuts and fittings, 2nd - to dry fit and mark placement of Adel clamps, 3rd - final install with heatshield wrap etc. The required work was the easy part...figuring out stuff took the longest time as you explore your options and order more parts.
    Amazon Prime FTW. But I understand where you're coming from--I've had whole projects held up for a week because I was missing $5 worth of stuff. Over the last few weeks, I've been ordering parts and beginning to mock things up in my apartment (since I don't have a nice garage like you--thankfully no wife). It's going to be very cold when I install this thing--this morning it was 43F.

    Anyway, I need to get back out there--the transmission is out and I washed down the inside of the tunnel in preparation for the head shield/sound damper. Also installing a new pilot bearing and slave.

  6. #126
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    In this picture, how close are you to the bend radius of the hose? It looks like you tapped the port where the OEM regulator used to be. Did you consider using a larger diameter hose and just clamping it over the plastic port? Or, if you were set on a barbed fitting, why not a pair of 45 degree fittings? I'm guessing they just weren't what you had on hand.
    The bend radius of the EFI hose was as close as I could get with just a little bit of relief for shoving it into the bucket - which was a moot point since I had to disconnect to get it in there then reconnect after it's in. I didn't use a 45 degree because I didn't think it was necessary. There was no interference with the level indicator so I didn't bother exploring any other options. I was totally set on a brass barbed fitting for clamping strength. Going with a larger diameter hose to fit over that port was not an option (in-bucket regulator) - way too bulky and I wanted to keep it slim. In the event of a high pressure difference for the return, I wanted something I could get a nice clamp on.


    Before I forget again: is there a functional difference between the black, -6AN, 90 degree return fitting and the blue, -8AN, 90 degree feed line fitting? Size differences aside. It looks like they're both finishing their turns at the same distance below the bucket. That leads me to believe that the return fitting has a larger bend radius, but I could be wrong. It looks like it might have a little straight section before bending.
    The choices for an adapter were few for the blue fitting - that's an Earl's fitting and picked that up at Summit. It connects the -8AN underside bulkhead to a 3/8 NPT to fit into the 3 port air fitting. That blue fitting gave just enough overhead for the round 3-port air fitting. The black fitting is a long radius bend and terminates at about the same level as the supply assembly. I needed it to be a swivel fitting to direct the return black hose away from interfering with the level indicator.

    AFAIK, having the regulator at the front of the fuel rails ensures that, should you see a pressure drop between the rear-most and front-most injectors (which you might under WOT), you err on the side of dumping too much fuel into the rear-most cylinders instead of too little. Should make the car easier to tune--especially later in the game when I start working on the 3.3/4.0L Whipple build.
    The only reason I asked is because I have never heard any real life feedback on that setup. A regulator at the exit of the fuel rails is all the information I've ever had. I've seen and heard a lot of feedback on ITBs but not much with fueling demands in any of the cylinders. The aftermarket fuel rails with larger volume is overkill for NA stuff and likely get no benefit but I would think that fuel hungry FI setups get more than sufficient fuel flow across all cylinders. In other words, larger volume rails compensate for equal volume for the injectors. In some tuning applications (no idea with HP Tuners), you can tune individual injectors.


    Over the last few weeks, I've been ordering parts and beginning to mock things up in my apartment (since I don't have a nice garage like you--thankfully no wife). It's going to be very cold when I install this thing--this morning it was 43F.
    Wife's are good for beer runs! Hopefully this thread knocks a big chunk out of the time it takes to do the fuel mod on this platform. I can change a fuel pump in my s2k in 2hrs start to finish with no rushing. If I had to run the fuel lines...probably 3 hrs start to finish. The CTS-V...I feel like I'm making a career project. I have no doubts a speedshop can do this in a weekend but at $100/hr for custom work...phor-gid-aboud-it (gangster voice). I might have them swap my engine when the time comes because they can yank, replace and tune in a day.

    So I gotta ask...what's with the new pilot bearing and slave? You should have low miles on that since your last replacement.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    So I gotta ask...what's with the new pilot bearing and slave? You should have low miles on that since your last replacement.
    I've never replaced the pilot bearing in this car. I meant to do it when I installed the McLeod RXT, but the effing rental tool was too big for the bearing. I didn't replace the slave last time, since it arrived the Monday instead of Friday like it was supposed to. So I'm taking care of them now while I've got the transmission out. Old pictures (I also replaced the FG2s with KW Variant 3's that weekend):




    I also did a quick clean and inspect on my T-56, firstly because I accidentally flipped the nylon cup upside down when I installed the million shifter linkage bushings identified in Cadzilla's B&M LS1Tech thread, secondly, to replace the main seal (preventative), and thirdly, to verify that the T-56 is in acceptable condition to do the TR6060 core swap thing. I intend to do the Z06 gear ratio (close ratio before 4th, with the tall 0.75/0.50 gearing after 4th) and either a 3.42 or 3.55 G-Force 9" IRS with the carbon fiber driveshaft option.

    After that, it's a 427 LSX and a 3.3L or 4.0L Whipple (whichever will fit under my Extreme Composites hood...which I still haven't installed). Good thing I'm almost done procuring better brakes.

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    Re: pig in slop

    That's a pretty good list of power mods and those links are great! I need to get more info on that TR6060 internal swap. I did the shifter bandaids based on Cadzilla's thread and your impressions after you did them. I think the CS 8.8" is better suited for sub-1000 rwhp and the street but they are too close in price now to pass up bragging rights on having a 9" shoved under there.

    Sorry to knock positive displacement super chargers e.g. roots style etc. but they are still prone to belt slippage and heat soak. Those things are always back in a shop getting the kinks out. I have them on my list but the top 2 are Procharger (still prone to belt slippage) or twin turbo. Luckily not far where I live there is a shop that does custom turbos over in ricer territory and my buddy just did 2 of his supras and his gtr and puts out stupid HP. I brought my s2k out there and I was on the low end with 550rwhp. My neighbor just did twin turbos on his Challenger frankenstein build - that was after a KenneBell SC blew his stock 5.7 due to a spun bearing - with turbo lag he's at 600rwhp briefly then climbs a short mountain to over 1000rwhp. My point is that in my experience SC's are a stepping stone to turbos.

    Something else to think about is the other benefit of a turbo set-up...you can control the boost and have multiple tunes. I have 4 main tunes with my s2k and I daily drive with 400rwhp and do a boost by gear - this was to tame it for the street. When I take it to the strip, I have launch control 2-step, quick spool and shove 25psi boost down its throat.

    On a side note, the last time I took the V to auto-x, my wife beat me with her FRS by 5 seconds, FAWK! Which is a large reason this thread was born.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    That's a pretty good list of power mods and those links are great! I need to get more info on that TR6060 internal swap. I did the shifter bandaids based on Cadzilla's thread and your impressions after you did them. I think the CS 8.8" is better suited for sub-1000 rwhp and the street but they are too close in price now to pass up bragging rights on having a 9" shoved under there.

    Sorry to knock positive displacement super chargers e.g. roots style etc. but they are still prone to belt slippage and heat soak. Those things are always back in a shop getting the kinks out. I have them on my list but the top 2 are Procharger (still prone to belt slippage) or twin turbo. Luckily not far where I live there is a shop that does custom turbos over in ricer territory and my buddy just did 2 of his supras and his gtr and puts out stupid HP. I brought my s2k out there and I was on the low end with 550rwhp. My neighbor just did twin turbos on his Challenger frankenstein build - that was after a KenneBell SC blew his stock 5.7 due to a spun bearing - with turbo lag he's at 600rwhp briefly then climbs a short mountain to over 1000rwhp. My point is that in my experience SC's are a stepping stone to turbos.

    Something else to think about is the other benefit of a turbo set-up...you can control the boost and have multiple tunes. I have 4 main tunes with my s2k and I daily drive with 400rwhp and do a boost by gear - this was to tame it for the street. When I take it to the strip, I have launch control 2-step, quick spool and shove 25psi boost down its throat.

    On a side note, the last time I took the V to auto-x, my wife beat me with her FRS by 5 seconds, FAWK! Which is a large reason this thread was born.
    The 9" isn't not about bragging rights. You need to need the features of the kit--otherwise you're adding additional weight and parasitic losses for nothing. For my build, I feel that I need the 1000 HP axles included with the G-Force kit, and the additional traction offered by the Strange S-Trac differential.

    I understand what you're saying about the challenges inherent to positive displacement superchargers, but I've heard just as many people complain about the reliability of turbochargers. Personally, I want area under the curve and sustained boost capability. I've got a couple of ideas (including the use of a phenolic spacer and an insane cooling system) that should negate most of the traditional problems associated with superchargers. Check this out (if it starts you out at the beginning, skip to 0:50):





    From the moment that car crests 3250 RPM, he's playing with a nice, predictable 700-800 RWTQ all the way up to 7200 RPM. That car has ported heads, cam, 10:1 SCR, 1-7/8" Kooks headers, and 3" exhaust. Full specs here.

    Can you list the things you've done during this build? I'm pretty sure you've thrown the odds vs. your wife in your favor, strongly, but I could tell you better if I wasn't guessing.

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    Re: pig in slop

    This thread has the following excluding cosmetic stuffs:

    1) CS 8.8 kit with upgraded axles
    2) Katech LS9X clutch with 12 lb flywheel
    3) Twin DW300 fuel pumps, -8AN supply, -6AN return
    4) Holley fuel rails, filter, and regulator
    5) Two hotwire relays, one on a hobbs switch set for 2psi boost
    6) Blox vacuum manifold spliced into the brake booster
    7) CS trailing arms
    8) DRT Centric rotors w/stock Brembo pads
    9) ATI Superdamper
    10) Banski spherical RSM
    11) Shifter bandaids w/Tick bleeder

    Things I already have installed:

    a) KW V3 non modified springs
    b)Hotchkis sways
    c)Delrin cradle bushings
    d)Stainless Works 3" headerback exhaust
    e) Alradco radiator
    f) SS brake lines
    g) Katech shifter
    h) Z06 end links

    That is about as much I can recite atm. I have a spreadsheet on my other build, way too much crap to list as it is murdered (different platform). You will notice that I have not dug into the block because the LS6 is long in the tooth and out of production - not worthy of heavy investment. I also haven't touched the air intake because that will depend on FI. Her car (FRS) takes the corners like my s2k and she bounces off the rev limiter and hooks perfectly. I'm like a wild frat-boy all over the place fish-tailing just missing the cones. I make good time in the slaloms.

    The V with Stainless Works headerback exhaust, click pic for video:


    Pathetic:


    Not too interesting but this was a pull that produced 478 rwhp at the wheels before I upgraded injectors and fuel pump on the s2k, click pic for video:


    This is what I built over last winter:


    This is the only high HP sheet I have, the others show tuning for the street. It peeked at 550 but I don't have that datasheet in my library. The limiting factor is the exhaust manifold and introduces knock after the 550 hump with 93 pump gas.


    My street tune:

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    1) CS 8.8 kit with upgraded axles
    Significantly better traction around corners, when launching the car, and in the rain, since the OEM differential is open. No personal experience with a CTS-V with this mod, but from what everyone says, it sounds like it's a huge difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    2) Katech LS9X clutch with 12 lb flywheel
    With that lightweight flywheel, your car will rev almost twice as fast, accelerate faster, and rev-match much easier. Getting started off the line will require a deft touch, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    3) Twin DW300 fuel pumps, -8AN supply, -6AN return
    4) Holley fuel rails, filter, and regulator
    5) Two hotwire relays, one on a hobbs switch set for 2psi boost
    Supporting mods. As you know, no benefit until you add power.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    6) Blox vacuum manifold spliced into the brake booster
    No idea what that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    7) CS trailing arms
    The trailing arms themselves won't do anything for you, but the 90A bushings that come with it will help hold your alignment settings when you hit the gas and brake. When I did the 95A TiC trailing arm bushings, I noticed the difference right away.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    8) DRT Centric rotors w/stock Brembo pads
    I believe they're a touch heavier than stock. You probably won't notice anything, except for the slot passing frequency when you brake.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    9) ATI Superdamper
    A solid investment in engine longevity. I installed mine at the same time as my cam, so it's hard to say how much smoother the engine ran.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    10) Banski spherical RSM
    Again, no discernable difference. A good investment in the longevity of your KW Variant 3's.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    11) Shifter bandaids w/Tick bleeder
    Not sure which shifter bandaids you did (all of them?), but if you did the Home Depot mod, along with UUC rail bushings and the brass center linkage bushing that PISNUOFF sells, the shifter should have half the slop that it did previously. Make sure you really torque down those shifter plate bolts, and the bolts that hold the linkage to the car. If either of those bolts let go, the shifter will feel sloppy no matter how many other linkage mods you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    Things I already have installed:

    a) KW V3 non modified springs
    b)Hotchkis sways
    c)Delrin cradle bushings
    d)Stainless Works 3" headerback exhaust
    e) Alradco radiator
    f) SS brake lines
    g) Katech shifter
    h) Z06 end links
    As you already know, I recommend a set of adjustable Supra end links for the front and the rear (yes, you can use them despite the fact that you drilled out the front for the Z06 end links). Those end links will finally put an end to any worries you have about damaging your KW Variant 3 shock body, and eliminate that annoying diagonal cross between the bar and the control arm. 896 in-lb Swift springs for the rear of your KW Variant 3 kit will radically change the way the car handles. If you have an extra $250 burning a hole in your pocket, you might want to consider selling your front Hotchkis bar and upgrading to an Addco bar. It's definitely stronger than the Hotchkis bar, and assuming you get a good alignment afterwards, it should help keep your front end pinned to the road when cornering hard. Katech shifter FTW, by the way. Every time I see it, I grin. Such a nice piece.

    ----------

    Cleaned tunnel:



    I had to unbolt the driver's side header to get the bell housing out. Want to pull both headers out and rewrap them.

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    Re: pig in slop

    I did all the shifter "bandaids" including the PISNUOFF brass & Delrin bushings. Most of these mods are laying down a foundation for more power and preventative maintenance. The FRS is impressive with low speed auto-x and luckily in another class - it gets lazy in 3rd gear. The factory handling needs nothing.

    The Blox vacuum manifold is nothing more than a multi-port for tapping gauges, Hobbs switch, WG, BOV etc. LG motorsports makes one but it is way out of market price and has no aesthetic appeal for under the hood ornaments.

    I think I might do the Swiftsprings and the Supra endlinks - I'll wait on the front sway. I was looking at some Miata endlinks but you already did your homework on the Supra stuff.

    I also had issues with the bellhousing and it shredded my headerwrap, I just re-wrapped a section in place so I didn't have to remove it. I noticed the fiberglass material was very brittle and looks like a blowtorch was taken to my Revshift MMs - they sent new ones with thermo-jackets.

    The trans-tunnel looks clean! How did the install go?

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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by philistine View Post
    The trans-tunnel looks clean! How did the install go?
    Frustrated. The pilot bearing would not come out. I broke both of the slide hammer attachments trying to get it out. I also tried to remove that stuck MM bolt with a bolt extractor bit and that failed too. So I'm still running with one OEM mount and one CS mount.

    The tunnel looks good, but nowhere near as nice as yours. I also wrapped the bell housing:




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    Re: pig in slop

    Thermo-Tec / Tunnel Shield II tunnel comparison:





    I have no idea how you got it applied as cleanly as you did. I did two layers of DEI Thermal Tape over most of the borders. The Tunnel Shield II layer was easier to apply than the Thermo-Tec, because I could form it to the tunnel before pulling off the backing material. By the way, that backing material is the most incredibly crinkly stuff EVER. Wrapping paper has nothing on it.
    philistine likes this.

  15. #135
    philistine's Avatar
    philistine is offline Cadillac Owners Enthusiast
    Automobile(s): Black 2004 CTS-V
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Birmingham, Alabama, United St
    Posts
    807

    Re: pig in slop

    That's a fine lookin tunnel shield! You even wrapped the bell housing. My technique was to work from the center then outwards but that is easier said then done.

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