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2004-2007 Cadillac CTS-V Performance Mods Discussion, pig in slop in Cadillac CTS-V Series Forum - 2004 - 2007; Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic Out of curiosity...now that you have a regulator that you can set, do you know why ...
  1. #91
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Out of curiosity...now that you have a regulator that you can set, do you know why some fuel systems feature a higher pressure than others, and if there's an advantage to X PSI over another setting? I figure that a higher pressure system would allow you to get more out of your existing injectors, but the downside would be a greater percentage pressure drop associated with engine load transients. Conversely, a lower pressure would be more forgiving, but you'd have to hang the injectors open a lot longer at WOT to fuel the engine.
    I copy and pasted your question and asked a very experienced and well respected tuner. The answer I got was as follows:

    "Not sure the reasoning of 43.5 vs 58 psi systems (assuming that's what you are asking) I do not believe the lower pressure system would have any advantage during load transitions with the exception being when using large flow injectors with long minimum pulsewidth. These types of injectors are difficult to get to idle properly and higher fuel pressure makes the idle tuning especially difficult."
    I should add that he snarled when he groomed my s2k with ID1000s and I moved the base pressure up to 50psi. Completely wrecked all my fuel maps and the changes were not linear.

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    Re: pig in slop

    I think there might be a gap in the FAQs with making relays to power twin pumps with one one being a Hobbs switch (pressure switch) and the other trigger through normal operation. I ordered a few things and have been taking snap shots of how I'm fabricating the lines and some sketches how to do it all. This is simple knowledge for the EEs and experienced few but I think there might be some benefit for some who are not initiated. I'll show the tools that are needed/used etc.

    I'm also going to document how I run the fuel lines. I'm using rivet nuts with adel clamps. More pics to come in a week...when I come back from travel.

  3. #93
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    Re: pig in slop

    I've been doing a lot research and math on this--partially spurred by your earlier PM--and I believe that twin DW300 pumps will be sufficient for a 1000 RWHP, 0.6 BSFC FI car. But I don't think there's a "lot" of margin in either of our setups. With the 10 gauge Racetronix hotwire kit, the 24 peak amps at 60 PSI drawn by the twin pumps should drop voltage from whichever source you use by about 0.375 VDC. If that voltage at the pumps happens to be 13.5 volts, they'll spin fast enough to put out 275 LPH. Since the data sheet also says 345 LPH @ 60 PSI and 16 VDC, we can linearly extrapolate between the data points and say that for every extra volt you can deliver, the pump will produce 28 LPH more. So I think you might want to look at your present battery voltage under WOT and get a feel for approximately where it's at.

    Assuming that you make 2x275=550 LPH, that's 873 pounds of fuel per hour. According to the Aeromotive fuel pump tech bulletin, it sounds like this build should theoretically be able to handle 1454 BHP, or, if you take our 0.83 (est) drivetrain losses into account, 1207 RWHP. But then you need to consider the fact that the fuel flow numbers identified by Deatschwerks do not account for the flow resistance imposed by the system. If the system's flow-induced resistance reduces the free-flowing efficiency of the pump by about 15-20%, you're right at 1000 RWHP.

    Anyway, I just realized that I'm babbling too. Here's my planned parts list (I will build a raised door around the top of the bulkhead if necessary):
    • Aeromotive 13110 Pro-Series boost referenced pressure regulator ($305) with -10AN inlet and -10AN return ports. As I understand it, one of the big problems associated with boosted applications is that the extra pressure in the cylinder reduces the effective fuel pressure of your system. The rule of thumb is that for every pound of boost, you lose one pound of fuel pressure. Since the regulator works at a 1:1 ratio, for every pound of boost that it reads, it increases the fuel pressure by one PSI to compensate.
    • Aeromotive 12310 Pro-Series -12AN, 10 micron fuel filter ($135). Advertised 0.5 psi pressure drop at 2000 LPH, which is half the flow resistance of the Aeromotive 12301 (their -10AN "prosumer" model).
    • I left a message with Holley about doing a custom, -10AN version of the HLY-534-209 fuel rail for my car (internally, the fuel rail *is* -10AN), but if that doesn't work out, I'll purchase raw Aeromotive 14107 rails and have them machined to accept -10AN fittings.
    • PTFE-lined -12AN stainless steel feed and return lines with various -12AN and -10AN fittings

    According to Engineering Toolbox, a single 90-degree, half-inch (-8AN) fitting has a flow resistance equivalent to 3.6 feet of hose. A 45-degree fitting, on the other hand, has a flow resistance equivalent to 0.7 feet (5x less). So I'm going to use 45-degree fittings on the front of the rails.

    Random question: how much length did you need on your hose segments? The stuff I'm looking at costs about $10/foot, so I'm hoping to avoid ordering a ton extra "just in case." If I get under the car this weekend, I'll certainly whip out a tape measure to check.

  4. #94
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Random question: how much length did you need on your hose segments? The stuff I'm looking at costs about $10/foot, so I'm hoping to avoid ordering a ton extra "just in case." If I get under the car this weekend, I'll certainly whip out a tape measure to check.
    I used 11' of the feed and 10' return line - I ordered 15' of each to be safe.

    Since the data sheet also says 345 LPH @ 60 PSI and 16 VDC, we can linearly extrapolate between the data points and say that for every extra volt you can deliver, the pump will produce 28 LPH more. So I think you might want to look at your present battery voltage under WOT and get a feel for approximately where it's at.
    Yeah this is something I'm going to look at when I button everything up. The backup plan is to upgrade the alternator, alternator wire upgrade and change to a power cell AGM battery and I've been eyeballin the Kinetiks - just have to get dimensions. Lays down a nice path for stereo equipment too.

    According to Engineering Toolbox, a single 90-degree, half-inch (-8AN) fitting has a flow resistance equivalent to 3.6 feet of hose. A 45-degree fitting, on the other hand, has a flow resistance equivalent to 0.7 feet (5x less). So I'm going to use 45-degree fittings on the front of the rails.
    There are long bend and short bend radii - which did you calculate? 3.6 feet equivalent resistance for a 90 degree long bend radius on these swivel seal type AN connections seem way too high.

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    Re: pig in slop

    I don't have any plans of ever building my V to 1000rwhp, but I just wanted to say that it is very interesting reading the information posted in this thread. It seems that most build threads that I've read simply discuss what was done and the end result. They mostly seem to skip over the more interesting parts of why certain choices were made.

    Thanks for sharing and good luck on your builds.

  6. #96
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    I have heard lots of discussions concerning QC issues with the new Kinetik batteries. It may be backlash from Kinetik being sold at Wal-Mart now. I don't really know. It was enough for me to look for a different brand. Duracell now makes automotive AGM batteries. No clue on quality but they are cheaper than most competitors and offer a good warranty. I would still go the BAP route if for no other reason than voltage stability. Just cheap lightweight insurance IMO.

  7. #97
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by sssnake View Post
    I have heard lots of discussions concerning QC issues with the new Kinetik batteries. It may be backlash from Kinetik being sold at Wal-Mart now. I don't really know. It was enough for me to look for a different brand. Duracell now makes automotive AGM batteries. No clue on quality but they are cheaper than most competitors and offer a good warranty. I would still go the BAP route if for no other reason than voltage stability. Just cheap lightweight insurance IMO.
    The new electrical bulkhead connector is safer than the OEM. The hotwire kit from I purchased from Racetronix has a port in there for a BAP and I could use that if at all necessary...which I don't think it is with a twin pump set-up. Some tuners I spoke with have experienced voltage swings taking power from the alternator - I plan to take power from the battery for each pump.

    The voltage should be very stable, just less. At 2psi activation for the other pump, I have plenty of fuel for forced induction. I agree though, single pump, BAP and stock fuel lines is budget friendly. I'm not taking the risk with the OEM electrical bulkhead connector and this twin pump route gives far better fuel regulation.

    I've done a lot of digging on the V1 and the s2ki forums with fuel mods because I own both and have modded/in the middle of modding etc. There are more than a couple dozen melted relays and electrical bulkhead connectors using hotwires, BAP, or single drop in power hungry 340 fuel pumps. Some cases rear their ugly head in a couple days, some in a couple months. Lonnies and Racetronix both have reported anything over 13.5amps in the OEM electrical connector will do damage. I would caution anyone to upgrade the internal wiring and with a vapor seal before installing anything over a Walbro 255. Some have bypassed the electrical bulkhead and ran it straight down into the pumps - too many cases ended up with the fuel wicking its way up through the lines and giving fuel vapors, not good.

    Thanks for the head's up on the Kinetik battery - did some mild digging and those AGM batteries have seriously low CCA. Might be best to use an AGM as a second battery in the trunk, idk haven't followed that path.

    ***Edit***
    Not much dialogue here, doesn't need to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Racetronix
    Quote Originally Posted by philistine
    I was looking at your fuel bulkhead fitting:

    BCWS-001 - Universal Bulkhead Wiring System, 4-Way

    Does the 14AWG wire support larger pumps such as the Aeromotive 340 or the Walbro 400?

    Thanks!
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnies Performance
    Quote Originally Posted by philistine

    The CTSV hotwire will not support the power requirements of a 340lph pump.

    The venturi that keeps the bucket full is part of the regulator, Modifying these are rather complicated.
    Hmm, the 10awg seems sufficient to power a 340lph drop in tank pump. If it draws more than 40 amps then yeah, the wire is insufficient.

    Why do you think the Racetronix kit cannot power a 340lph fuel pump?

    The bulkhead connector is only good for 13a.
    Here is a link on the s2ki forums where a few have had melting relays with similar set-ups, a few of those guys posting on there have had a lot of trial/error and a ton of experience on that platform (It's a good read):
    http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1039...#entry22736264

    When I mod one car, I take the experience learned and carry that forward on other platforms as well.

  8. #98
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    Re: pig in slop

    This is what happens when that connector goes (horrifying pictures after the jump):

    http://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-c...g-smoking.html


    Image credit: CTSV_510

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    Re: pig in slop

    Here's what I bought for my door:

    - One plain stainless steel 9.4x5.6" serving tray with a flat, wide border (linkage)
    - Two 3x1" bi-fold door hinges (linkage)
    - One 5.7x1.65" flush door pull, which I plan to JB Weld (linkage)
    - Two 1.5x0.5" N42 neodynium magnets with twin countersunk holes (linkage)
    - Custom fuel gasket made to fit from ACE Rubber Products (linkage)

    Once I put it together, I'll see if I like the way it looks. If not, it'll go in the recycling.

    Also ordered:

    - Allstar ALL11120 aluminum wrenches to avoid messing up the -AN fittings (linkage)
    - Dremel 8220-2/28 to finish enlarging the hole for the fuel system (linkage)
    - Lots and lots of Dremel accessories
    - Allstar ALL42151 3" brake hose, rated for 300 degrees (linkage)

    If the brake hose melts, I'll be more than happy to replace it with 500+ degree hose, but I don't think that it'll get that hot because the LG G2 spindle kit should provide sufficient spacing from the rotor.

    The 300 amp AD244 alternator arrived today, and I plan on installing the transmission tunnel heat shield tomorrow. Fingers crossed that it doesn't pour!

  10. #100
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    Re: pig in slop

    Looks like you have a busy weekend! The parts list for the trap door looks interesting...and different. Since they are DIY, you can get creative. Hopefully you get the tunnel shield in there and post the results - I'm curious how the Thermotec+DEI shield will quiet things down.

    Regarding your tool list:
    1)The best tool I used for grinding out the fuel module was a carbide grinder used for grinding out grout. It works like an end-mill and was helpful grinding all those angles - just be careful if that thing slips, it's taking out an arm, leg, eyeball, chunk of fuel module etc. I polished all the cuts with a grinding stone. These 2 dremel accessories were absolutely perfect.
    link - carbide grout removal bit
    link - carbide grinding stone
    2) I used Forstner bits to make all the holes for the penetrations on the fuel module - don't use a dremel to make those holes. You want the exact size penetration hole and perfectly round in conjunction with a sealing ring on the underside.
    link - Forstner Bits

    Also you might want to get aluminum jaws for your vice if you don't already have one if you are using a swivel-seal type AN end fittings. Using blocks of wood will only cause frustration. I have those same aluminum wrenches for AN fittings

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    Re: pig in slop

    Hey, feel free to tear the door idea a new one if you don't think it'll work. Although I know this is a car forum, I require little-to-no ego stroking and would rather hear people's concerns out. My biggest concern is fitment, followed by the possibility of some fatass crushing the lid and everything under it. If my bouncing on the seat doesn't hurt it, I'll know I'm good--otherwise, I'm making a trip to Home Depot to build something sturdier.

    By the way, I was looking for your tunnel shield dimensions picture, and ran across that picture of you (literally and figuratively) threading the bucket into the tank. What is that three-way adapter that you're using? Also, in the background, there was a picture of the standard KW Variant 3 springs. Are you considering picking up a pair of Swift springs for the rear? Finally, your alignment settings are going to be crazy out of whack when you get the car back together. Mine were insane--the poor alignment guy spent 2.5 hours of wrench time getting stuff back to where it was supposed to be, and that was with the correct Kent-Moore J-45845 camber tool. If you're interested in swapping your fuel ring locking tool with my camber tool for a couple of weeks, let me know. I'm afraid that I'm going to destroy this locking ring if I keep beating on it.

    ----------



    These are my alignment settings at the moment. The front camber is nowhere where I wanted it, but the alignment guy looked like he was about to drop after compensating for the Revshift control arm bushing installation. At least I remembered to throw two 80 lb bags of concrete in the front seat before he began work.

    Once I finish fine-tuning my ride height and dampening settings (90% done), I'll have him do -2.0 degrees front camber. The other settings are solid--I wouldn't want to increase front toe a whole lot more, or decrease rear toe any further.

  12. #102
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    Re: pig in slop

    From what I can tell you are going to take that tray and flip it to give some added room for larger -AN fittings (-10AN, -12AN). If that is the case I don't think that is going to help you because of the width of the tray. That flange area is where those AN fittings come in close (but not touching with -8AN) contact. The gas tank fits snug around the trap door opening which is the reason for the PEM self clinching nuts - they take up very little space on the under side and when pressed in correctly, they don't budge.

    Here's a small recap and a little more detail on my trap door:

    Here is the template I made giving the maximum width (front/back) to access the fuel module and give a 1 inch lip for a gasket. I actually ended up with 0.5-0.75 inch for the gasket on the width after cutting.




    I couldn't get a decent hole drilled in the car's sheet metal so I used this hole puncher. The hole has to be perfect shape for the PEM nuts.




    The sheet metal in the car is not perfectly flat. After punching the holes, I overlayed the gasket to mark the holes. Notice the holes are nowhere near in perfect alignment but they perform their job. The idea was to install a lot of fasteners to draw the car's sheet metal up to the 12 gauge SS cover and create a good seal with the 1/16" silicone high temp gasket.




    Finally, I painted it. I needed reference marks so I would know the correct orientation - A hand painted V logo suits it fine.


    This is from post #7 - I gave links this time.

    Trapdoor hardware:
    gasket - link
    SS trap door cover - link
    PEM self clinching nuts - link
    SS machine screws - link

    I used this sheet metal hole punch. Another good source of metal is Online Metals.

    Regarding the "adapter" for the fuel bucket supply lines - that was purchased at Home Depot, all aluminum. Then you go down a couple isles out of the tool section into the pipe fitting section and grab some NPT fittings. I used this for all my fittings.



    The reason is because the flexible line cannot fit on anything larger.

    To answer your question about the springs, I'm strongly considering it. You did a lot of research on it and I can't find a reason why it wouldn't improve the suspension. When I wrap up the fueling I'll drop the fuel tool in the mail as a loaner/swap re-swap tools is fine with me. I won't be satisfied until I crank it up and take her for a test drive though.

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    Re: pig in slop

    Sorry, I meant the triple-connection piece that the brass barbs fit into. Seems like standard Y-connector would be smaller and flow a little better. Unless you couldn't find one that was compatible with barbed fittings.

    My opening for the fuel tank is biased toward the outside of the car on the passenger side. It's been a while since I've opened it up, but I think that the bulge in the tray will fit squarely over the 90 degree elbow. The gasket material is simply for water rejection, since the gas fumes are isolated through the bucket seal. So I believe that a pair of 24-lb magnets should be sufficient. If not, I can go bigger on the magnets, or I suppose I could search for a good latch. Ultimately, I don't want to copy your design (despite the fact that it's a nice, straightfoward solution) if I don't have to, since I'd like to have a door that I can open without tools.

    I'm probably still a month out from construction on this thing, since I still need to get an extra fuel bucket (I can't afford to have the car down for more than a weekend at a time) and decide on bulkhead fittings. Basically, this whole thing is being rate-limited by cashflow and my ability to manage my time between work, fitness, and my master's degree.

  14. #104
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    Re: pig in slop

    Quote Originally Posted by FuzzyLogic View Post
    Sorry, I meant the triple-connection piece that the brass barbs fit into. Seems like standard Y-connector would be smaller and flow a little better. Unless you couldn't find one that was compatible with barbed fittings.
    Yeah I got that at Home Depot, where all the air compressor accessories are located. The blue fitting I ordered from Summit.

  15. #105
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    Guys you are missing my point on the BAP. You don't have to turn the voltage up to get the extra voltage regulation. Adding a BAP is in effect adding a tightly regulated dc to dc power supply. It is a ton cheaper to run than an extra battery and will likely produce better results (depends on the batteries, there locations, and the wiring). It will definitely be lighter. How many more horsepower do you have to make to offset gaining 75 lbs worth of battery, wiring, and mounting hardware?

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