Cadillac Owners Forum banner

pig in slop

131K views 704 replies 43 participants last post by  philistine 
#1 · (Edited)
Weekend just isn't long enough...

 
See less See more
1
#258 · (Edited)
Well, I'll be darned. The shipment from FrozenBoost came in today. My reaction to the -12AN fittings was one of eyebrow raised amusement. My reaction to the fact that FrozenBoost encapsulates their stainless steel lines in a brown, semi-transparent sheath of silicon was decidedly more negative. However, these lines won't be seen in the engine bay (and I'll wrap them in thermal insulation anyway), so I guess it doesn't really matter. Anyway, enjoy :


In reading order: blue AN aluminum wrenches, blue 10AN to 1/2" NPT adapters (not used), 5/16" hose barb to 1/4" NPT, 3/8" Gates hose, 5/16" Gates hose, two flexihoses, two 8AN 45-degree fittings, 10AN 45-degree fitting, 10AN and 12AN test kit (three pieces each, silver, includes plain plug, plug with 1/4" NPT tapped hole, and Schrader valve to 1/4" NPT fitting for an air compressor), Russell 650420 10AN Y-block, two 8mm (5/16" equiv.) hose barb to 10AN adapters in the Russell Y-block, one 10AN 90-degree bulkhead adapter in the Russell Y-block, 8AN/10AN/12AN hose fittings, more fittings, and a DW300.

You may want to click on the above image and use Photobucket to grab it at native size (hit the magnifying glass on the lower right a couple of times). For reference, 12AN is like . . . small dick sized. ;) Anyway, since the Frozenboost test kit plugs were identical in diameter to AN bulkhead nuts, I put a 10AN and 12AN plug on the fuel bucket lid to show clearances:







I also did one with pieces from the 8AN, 10AN, and 12AN hose fittings, for fun:



Look how big the inner diameter of the 3/8" Gates hose is, compared to the OEM return port (the little hole in the white plastic thing):

 
#259 · (Edited)
Those are good pics! Nice assortment of fittings and very high quality. I want to point out think about how you are going to tighten the bulkhead fittings on there with the nut on the underside. Turn them diagonal (pointy ends facing each other instead of flat ends towards each other) and find out if there is enough space to use a socket or either or both - or if you can use an open end wrench. Those bulkhead fittings have to be very tight.

Another method I did not try was to thread the bulkhead fitting in there without the nut and using a gasket on the outer surface. So in other words, tap the fuel module and thread it in there. Depending on the size of the holes and proximity, you weaken the surface area of the fuel module.

The placement and angle of the fuel supply and return are critical to where you are going to route your lines. How much relief/clearance are you going to have as it routes from the top of the module and out to your filter etc. I had to do a few mock tests but lined it up where the OEM fuel lines were in the fuel tank line clamp/holder. Not enough relief and it will tug on that bulkhead fitting. Not the right angle and you could snap the fuel module with the bulkhead fitting.

If drilling, use Forstner style drill bits for a more precise cut.

I'm sure you'll think it through...again, nice pics!

Edit: I think I see some black center caps for the cts-v wheels...I need some, link please.
 
#260 ·
Edit: I think I see some black center caps for the cts-v wheels...I need some, link please.
Here you go. $110 for a full set. I wish he was still selling sets of them for $80.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200929641951

By the way, thanks to my AN fittings order, I was able to mock up my system and realize that I'm short a few parts. 21 more fittings ordered. ;) That 5% off code at FrozenBoost is going to be worth quite a bit now!
 
#261 ·
Nice choice on the teflon fuel hoses. Based on many reviews it's the way to go for no fuel odors and E85. Time will tell how long my Pro-lite stuff will last. If it starts to stink my garage then I'll know to yank it and replace it.

I have visions of a gas sprinkler under my car after I solve my clutch install - haha
 
#263 ·
Well the fuel hose I purchased is rated for E85 as well but just have to see how it holds up in the long run. Going forward, I would only recommend teflon but it was an afterthought.

I've become efficient at dropping a cts-v transmission now. The big chore is reduced to a simple task. Had it out in one hour. Broke my heart to disassemble the exhaust...those 3" SW pipes are a wrestling match to put back in. I feel like a kid on the "monkey" bars at a playground getting them back in place.
 
#265 · (Edited)
Use the $75, 450 lb Harbor Freight jack and the instructions provided by the CTS-V FAQ. Don't forget to remove the electrical connections or you'll destroy them. Don't forget to unbolt the shifter plate from the bottom of the car. Once the transmission is unbolted from the bell housing and supported by the jack, press the clutch pedal in a controlled manner to partially separate the two. Finish the separation process with a strong, flat blade screwdriver or something wider/bigger. Both surfaces are aluminum, and you don't want to gouge either of them.

You'll need to lift the car at least 16-18 inches off the ground if you plan on slipping the transmission out from the bottom of the car on its side. When you go to reinstall the transmission, unbolt the bottom of the shifter so that you can manipulate it into the hole in the bottom of the car as the transmission rises. Watch the wire harnesses--they're easy to pinch. If you need to tighten up the bell housing, you won't be able to get all of the bolts on the sides until the transmission is hanging off the engine and tilts it down slightly.
 
#266 ·
^^^basically that. Here are a few things that made it faster for me.

1) That 450 lb trans-jack Fuzzy mentioned
2) 15mm Mac (or equivalent) swivel head socket (not swivel connector)
3) 24"-36" combined length socket extensions
4) Impact gun

I separated the transmission differently. Once all the bolts were out, I used my headers as a handle and gently rocked the engine. From there I could bump the trans-jack up or down depending on how tight it is in there.
 
#268 ·
+1 on the extra long extensions and a trans jack. I also found loosening one of the headers makes it much easier to get the bell housing out
 
  • Like
Reactions: FuzzyLogic
#272 ·
Congratulations! Job well done, sir. Now it's time to take back those five seconds on the track! ;)

Was this your first time on the KW Variant 3s? If so, how did they feel? Did you notice the slot passing frequency on the DRT rotors when you hit the brakes? Transmission tunnel sound--thoughts? How does the 8.8" feel around corners? Any difference in terms of traction with the posi?
 
#275 ·
Thanks! The fuel system gobbled up a chunk of my time - I didn't think I'd ever get finished! The only thing left is the ATI Superdamper but I decided to combine mods for that job - after break-in with all my goodies. So fun to drive!

btw Fuzzy, it's a limited slip not posi.
 
#277 · (Edited)
I got lucky with the Delrin inserts but I see your point. I put about 30 miles on the new V and so far so good! I have vibrations due to the fresh Revshift MMs but that was to be expected. My steering linkage no longer rubs on the headers on sharp turns. I notice that I have to crank it twice to get it running. Turn the key and hear the fuel pump charging the line but it still takes 2 tries to get it turn over. I drove it with 1/4 tank of gas with no issues all the way 1/8 tank.

Gave it a nice country ride around some good turns that I do with my s2k - ehh, have to get used to the V all over again. Feels very heavy in comparison but I've been driving that daily while the V was on ramps.

I don't notice any improvement on stopping power with the fresh OEM pads and DRT rotors - just quiet. The clutch is quiet and smooth like butter - no hard launches for awhile though.

Regarding your list, I notice you have a SS -12AN adapter. I just want to remind you that SS has a tendency to *gall*. Any little piece of dirt or if you tighten it too much will ruin it and what it is threaded to. I avoid them if I can help it with the exception of nylon inserts. SS nut + SS bolt = galling 95% of the time.

***Edit***
That V2 brake upgrade you're doing - does that give you a 5 bolt pattern? I'm thinking dibs on the Forgestars if they come up for sale :D
 
#278 · (Edited)
I got lucky with the Delrin inserts but I see your point. I put about 30 miles on the new V and so far so good! I have vibrations due to the fresh Revshift MMs but that was to be expected. My steering linkage no longer rubs on the headers on sharp turns. I notice that I have to crank it twice to get it running. Turn the key and hear the fuel pump charging the line but it still takes 2 tries to get it turn over. I drove it with 1/4 tank of gas with no issues all the way 1/8 tank.

Gave it a nice country ride around some good turns that I do with my s2k - ehh, have to get used to the V all over again. Feels very heavy in comparison but I've been driving that daily while the V was on ramps.

I don't notice any improvement on stopping power with the fresh OEM pads and DRT rotors - just quiet. The clutch is quiet and smooth like butter - no hard launches for awhile though.

Regarding your list, I notice you have a SS -12AN adapter. I just want to remind you that SS has a tendency to *gall*. Any little piece of dirt or if you tighten it too much will ruin it and what it is threaded to. I avoid them if I can help it with the exception of nylon inserts. SS nut + SS bolt = galling 95% of the time.
Sorry, I forgot you have Delrin inserts. I'm surprised that those things took off like they did... seemed like a nice coat of paint on a bad apple. But I have no experience with them, so I could be totally wrong. It'd be interesting to take two nearly identical cars--one with Delrin inserts and one with Revshift bushings--for a spin. So many of the arguments that regularly occur on this forum and LS1Tech could be settled by some hands-on time.

With respect to the "heavy" feeling, I suspect that you're feeling the higher roll center of the CTS-V and greater unsprung weight of the CTS-V wheels (versus your S2K) combined with the understeer associated with our very conservative OEM alignment. If you're still driving with the stock KW Variant 3 springs in the back, the whole body of the car is sagging to the outside rear around the twisties, removing weight from the front wheels and contributing to sloppy handling. Although my CTS-V is probably still less nimble than your S2K, I'd wager that it's significantly snappier than your CTS-V at the present time.

For what it's worth, my stock, black powdercoated CTS-V winter wheels with 245/45-18" Continental DWS weigh as much as my rear 19x10" Forgestar F14s with 285/35/-19" Hankook Ventus V12 tires. IIRC, the DRT rotors weigh a little more (half a pound or so) than the stock rotors. By contrast, the Girodisc 355mm front rotors weigh 19 lbs (a savings of 7 lbs per corner versus 26.0 lbs stock), and the RacingBrake 355mm and 370mm front rotors weigh 21.5 and 23.0 lbs, respectively. In the rear, there are big gains to be had as well--RB 365mm rotors are 17.8 lbs, versus 22.7 lbs stock (4.8 lbs savings). If you talk to someone like Junior1 or AAIIIC about the front rotors, they'll probably tell you that turn-in effort is reduced with lighter front rotors. Personally, I'm more interested in lessening the static and rotating inertia of the wheels--it'll improve ride quality and acceleration/deceleration. If only this stuff wasn't as expensive as it is.

I'll try to be careful with the stainless steel stuff. With the exception of my bulkhead connectors, almost every single fitting I ordered is stainless steel.

That V2 brake upgrade you're doing - does that give you a 5 bolt pattern? I'm thinking dibs on the Forgestars if they come up for sale :D
Nope. The caliper upgrade is totally independent of anything else. If you arrived at that impression by reading a couple of the newbies' posts on a thread from a few months ago, ignore them. The only thing you need to do to your car is buy M14 V2 caliper bolts and enlarge your existing M12 spindle bolt holes.


Photo credit: AAIIIC.
 
#281 ·
Creative steel has done great work with a lot of their products. Revshift gave great competition with some of their stuff - but just in mounts. CS has given a turnkey differential upgrade and a host of other stuffs that is pretty darn good. I'm surprised they haven't ventured into the big game of FI options and turnkey kits. Could you imagine a turnkey upgrade with a Whipple SC from CS? It would be stellar!

I have my suspicions that Revshift doesn't test their stuff on cts-v's thoroughly. You did the front control arms and are having issues with squeaking. I replaced MMs that were clearly blown (no heat shields). I'm glad they're in the market for this platform but I've become hesitant on their stuff. For example, I got shifter bushings from PISNUOFF largely due to the fact he has this platform as an owner - absolutely perfect! Max IIRC also has this platform for testing and has an incredible advantage for testing and his products are solid.

I don't favor one vendor over the other but appreciate their efforts. I seriously wish CS would come up with a FI solution - would be killer!

Anyways, the heart of this thread is the fuel system. I sniffed the fuel lines under the hood and it's clean - no odor. That's good because I was getting strong fuel vapors from other areas which I attribute to testing and submerging the fuel lines into a gas bucket. I finally fastened the trap door and sealed it with 'GOOP' - eh even with a gasket, vapors find their way in.

I drove it around with the lid on the trap door and backseat out - can't hear the fuel pumps at all.
 
#282 · (Edited)
I have my suspicions that Revshift doesn't test their stuff on cts-v's thoroughly. You did the front control arms and are having issues with squeaking. I replaced MMs that were clearly blown (no heat shields). I'm glad they're in the market for this platform but I've become hesitant on their stuff. For example, I got shifter bushings from PISNUOFF largely due to the fact he has this platform as an owner - absolutely perfect! Max IIRC also has this platform for testing and has an incredible advantage for testing and his products are solid.
Squeaking is an unfortunate, but unavoidable characteristic of polyurethane control arm bushings. There's nothing you can do, other than lubricate them well. Every platform has the same problem. I suspect the only easy fix would be to build control arm bushings out of Delrin, but who knows how expensive those would be.
 
#283 ·
Actually, Delrin is quite cheap, but has poor compression set. This means that when it is deformed, it does not return to its original shape and size. If you hit Delrin with a hammer it will dent. This means that if you use it for bushings it will deform with use, and end up providing you with loose bushings, making the car feel sloppy. Most types of polyurethane, used for automotive bushings, have good compression set characteristics. This means it does return to its original shape after being deformed. Hit polyurethane with a hammer, no dent! Much more ideal for repeated suspension beatings.

There is actually one way, other than generous amounts of lube, to remove the squeaking associated with poly bushings. You can step up the hardness to 75D, which has minimal flex. This level of hardness has a low enough coefficient of friction that it does not hold onto the steel as it rotates. This prevents the skipping action of the poly on the steel, which is the cause of the squeak on the softer bushings.

Back on topic though. That looks like a well thought out fuel system, lots of people would have just skipped right over the fuel cooling issue, and been confused when the car started stuttering in the hot weather. It should serve you well.
 
#290 ·
This makes me wonder about the life of my Delrin inserts on the subframe. At the time it was the only thing on the market. The metal washer distorts from the suggested torque value that many have reported as well. My thoughts are that it is fine but wonder how it compares with the poly-x subframe bushings. Not sure the material properties of Delrin inserts but these are somewhat flexible, charcoal color not the typical stiff white stuff like used with kitchen cutting boards.

Regarding the fuel system - I still have to crank it twice. I charged the fuel lines with both pumps and it still takes two tries. My neighbor has a triple pumper fuel system with new fuel lines and it does the exact same thing. A few times it's stuck trying to start and gotta turn it off and back on. Too much fuel perhaps? Oh well, it's something to focus on. Two tries still works like a charm though. It could be something as simple as getting new injectors but not venturing down that path till I have HPTuners Pro to groom the fuel maps etc.
 
#294 ·
I didn't want to introduce a failure point (check valve). I don't believe the stock system had one. I just think it needs double the time to properly charge (I understand a check valve would keep the fuel in the lines). Anyhow, it gives you something to think about incorporating into your system.
 
#297 · (Edited)
Ok here's some basic stuff on the fuel pump relays and tools I find essential.



Left to right:
1. Depinning kit - link
2. Delphi crimping tool for common molex connectors - link
3. Crimper, 2-8awg non-insulated - link

Here's the basics on the relay for the secondary pump:






From my notes:
30 - 10awg for power from the battery, incorporate inline fuse
87 - 14awg for power to secondary fuel pump
85 - 10awg chassis ground, combine relay ground and fuel pump ground
87a - not used
86 - switched, from ignition, trigger wire

So here's some wiring snapshots:
Wired up port 30 (goes to the battery)


It's upside down but same port 30 connection (beer glass to the left :D)


Wire them all up and looks like this:




The completed relay is installed to the far right...next to the Racetronix fuel pump relay (left). A lot of what you see in this pic is wire management - up to the hands of the installer.


Almost forgot, here is where I pull ignition power from (switched, port 86). Look closely and you can see the tiny red arrow:


That's just basic stuff but perhaps a refresher for some and learning for others.
 
#298 ·
Man, I need a garage and a huge white board. That's an awesome setup you have there. :thumbsup:

Anyway, based on your notes, I'm confused--the text says that your diagram is for the secondary pump, but your trigger is the ignition system. In this case, wouldn't your trigger be the Hobbs switch (with the pushbutton as a bypass)? I'm asking these questions for conversation's sake, mostly--once I get all of the parts in hand, I'll naturally go through the documentation on the relay and decide how I want to handle the system implementation. It'd be cool to turn on the pumps when I open the driver's side door (like some cars do), but it'd unnecessarily complicate the design.

Also, I understand what you were saying about the Venturi effect. Where I get hung up is that you have to have flow past the branch that you want to draw suction from. That CV on the stock bucket is so hard to actuate that (assuming it isn't broken on this extra bucket of mine) it's easy to imagine fuel being driven directly back into the fuel tank instead of opening the valve. But for all I know, the flow resistance into those feeder lines in the fuel tank is high enough to build enough pressure to open the CV.

Also, by the way, I found that the barbed connections on the bucket all require 3/8" line. So either I have to use accordion flex hose like you did, or run 3/8" Gates submersible hose. 5/16" won't fit. I'd love to do the 3/8" Gates option, but the problem is that the barbed outlets of the fuel pumps are a hair too narrow for it. What do you think of this for long term use: wrap each DW300 outlet barb with 4-5 layers of yellow, double-density PTFE tape (rated for gas/fuel), press fit 3/8" Gates hose, and double T-bolt clamp each hose connection?
 
#299 · (Edited)
Man, I need a garage and a huge white board. That's an awesome setup you have there. :thumbsup:

Anyway, based on your notes, I'm confused--the text says that your diagram is for the secondary pump, but your trigger is the ignition system. In this case, wouldn't your trigger be the Hobbs switch (with the pushbutton as a bypass)? I'm asking these questions for conversation's sake, mostly--once I get all of the parts in hand, I'll naturally go through the documentation on the relay and decide how I want to handle the system implementation. It'd be cool to turn on the pumps when I open the driver's side door (like some cars do), but it'd unnecessarily complicate the design.
Yeah the ignition can serve to run the secondary full time (not recommended) or Hobbs switch. In my case it's going to a switch for over-ride and for normal trigger being the Hobbs which still needs power from the ignition when it activates (so both). It gets slightly more complicated but I can fill you in when you get to that point.

Also, I understand what you were saying about the Venturi effect. Where I get hung up is that you have to have flow past the branch that you want to draw suction from. That CV on the stock bucket is so hard to actuate that (assuming it isn't broken on this extra bucket of mine) it's easy to imagine fuel being driven directly back into the fuel tank instead of opening the valve and flowing past the feed line. But for all I know, the flow resistance into those feeder lines in the fuel tank is high enough to build enough pressure to open the valve.
Absolutely no clue on that one. I'm going to guess 50psi. At that pressure perhaps the Venturi effect is efficient to draw suction on the other side of the tank.

Also, by the way, I found that the barbed connections on the bucket all require 3/8" line. So either I use flex hose like you did, or run 3/8" Gates submersible hose. 5/16" won't fit. I'd love to do the 3/8" Gates option, but the problem is that the barbed outlets of the fuel pumps are a hair too narrow for it. What do you think of this for long term use: wrap each DW300 outlet barb with 4-5 layers of yellow, double-density PTFE tape (rated for gas/fuel), press fit 3/8" Gates hose, and double T-bolt clamp each hose connection?
Hmm, I know what you are saying. Your fittings strayed from using the flex line. The problem is, this isn't a fuel hangar. You need a compact design for the bucket - as small a footprint as possible to squeeze it into the fuel tank. I'm biased on this because I know how the fuel pressure and volume will settle once the fluid leaves the tank and journeys to the fuel rails. I would use the gates 3/8" on the return port and flex on everything else. You are right, the flex isn't going to fit on the 3/8" barbs but it will on the 5/16" barbs. I squeezed a 5/16" submersible fuel hose (not flex) on a 3/8" barb and clamped it but I would not do it in reverse even with double clamps.

Many cases of lines blowing right off the fitting with larger hose on smaller barb fitting.

I know that the flex line keeps the same ID with sharp bends but I don't know if the gates hose can bend and keep the same ID - I'm guessing not. It's a small point but the larger point is fitting the fuel module into the bucket. I didn't mean to undersell how difficult it was for me to stuff my fuel module design in there - it was a major PITA!

***Edit***
Thanks on the whiteboard comment. Yeah I use that for all my projects, very handy! I do a ton of projects, anywhere from designing ultrasonic a,b,c scans, motorization, home projects with interior design, custom movie theater basements...and nuclear core design - it all starts with the white board.
 
#301 ·
Update on my end with the single pump...

DW300 ended up being DOA. Had to use stock pump. Installed the harness under the frame and ran it towards the front near the clutch res to the alternator. Grounded it to the chassis on pass side rear. Sending the DW300 back for a refund.

Going to have to wait a bit longer with the pump but at least the harness is in now. Worst case, the swap'll take me an hour or so now with the access door cut in.
 
#303 ·
I don't have much to contribute right now, because I've been ordering parts and trying to catch up on real life stuff. However, I did get a few more fittings in, and as you can see, things are starting to look serious:





I also received two of my four SKF X-Tracker hubs, and was struck by how exquisitely machined they are. I might write the engineers at SKF a nice note, complementing them on their attention to detail. I'm not a photographer by any means (you can see lint all over these hubs from wiping them down with a dry paper towel), but between the pictures with and without flash, I hope you'll appreciate their work as much as I do.









 
#305 ·
They're about $210 apiece. Keep in mind that you don't need to sweat the premium price of the X-Tracker hubs unless you need the benefits of the low deflection bearing design (i.e.: reduced brake pad knockback). Most drivers will not be able to tell the difference between these and OEM bearings.

If you're still curious about the hubs, I'd suggest starting by reading AAIIIC's SKF X-Tracker hub thread from a couple of years back. There's a solid PDF link in there that you should read.
 
#307 · (Edited)
That's a nice assortment of fittings. Let's see some fuel bucket carnage!

Btw, my traction control seems to be coming on a lot more now - that and shifting is in the 3-4k rpm range. I'm trying to take it easy driving until full break-in but it's so damn fun to drive :D

I've got the week off so been painting the garage now that the 'V' is finally mobile. Doing shelves and red stripe. After this, the wife demanded new tile for the bathrooms - ehh.





 
#308 ·
That's a nice assortment of fittings. Let's see some fuel bucket carnage!

Btw, my traction control seems to be coming on a lot more now - that and shifting is in the 3-4k rpm range. I'm trying to take it easy driving until full break-in but it's so damn fun to drive :D

I've got the week off so been painting the garage now that the 'V' is finally mobile. Doing shelves and red stripe. After this, the wife demanded new tile for the bathrooms - ehh.
I hear you on the bucket stuff. I'll see what I can do over the Thanksgiving break. There are a couple of key measurements that I need to make, including the amount of clearance over the fuel bucket after I get the door installed. I have to get through those details before I can start making permanent changes to the bucket. There's a good chance I'll be clamping an -8AN PTFE hose over the return port on the bucket, but I want to do some accelerated life testing with a hose sample in a quart of gasoline first to see if any of the layers start to break down. The hoses I bought appear to be all PTFE, with the exception of the stainless steel braid on the outside. If two weeks' worth of immersion in gas shows no indication of erosion, I'm golden. If I'm not that lucky, I'll be cutting the port down flush with the bucket and tapping it there. It's a good way to cut down on the length of the Gates return line hose and potentially make the bucket easier to re-install.

Totally jealous on the clean, (presumably) warm garage. I tried to go outside today to work on the car, but it was 25°F and gusty, and it's especially hard to stay warm when you're sitting/laying on the asphalt. However, I may have fixed that problem--UA Cold Gear + thick cotton sweatpants/jacket for cold/abrasion protection. I'm stockpiling mod hardware again--my #1/0 wrought copper cable lugs arrived for the Big 3/alternator upgrade, along with a Katech C5R chain, Lingenfelter high volume LS6 oil pump (if I get an LSX motor and can't use it, I'll try to pass it along), Goodyear Gatorback Poly-V belt, and so on. Ultimately, I'll probably run a double roller timing assembly on the new motor with two C5R chains instead of whatever the kit comes with. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. But I digress...
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top